Who Believes?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
ChrisPowers wrote:

You pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter, pookie. The way I’ve always rationalized it is that I’m living as ethically as I possibly can. If there was a God, and he would choose to punish me for not worshipping him in spite of living a moral life, while he simultaneously rewards murderers and rapists who repent, then he can suck it as I want nothing to do with him anyway. Call me a blasphemer if you must.

Another thing is that the notion of salvation is grounded on the idea of faith.

Salvation is a gift, and earned by no one. ALL have sinned and come short. If you have ever thought of killing someone, or wished you could, or hated someone enough to kill…then you are a murderer. If you have lusted at someone, then you have sinned. Being moral is actually a Catch 22…its an impossiblity. No one can live morally. Its human nature to be vain, selfish, envious…Our salvation is bought and paid for with the blood of Jesus Christ. It is a gift. All of the prophets were hated and persecuted, as was Jesus, and his message was not a violent one, just a convicting one.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen. There was a man who walked tightrope across the Niagra Falls. He then did it with a will barrow. He then did it with 200 lbs. He then asked someone in the audience if he thought he could walk across with him in the wheelbarrow. The man replied yes. He asked him to get in the wheelbarrow. And he wouldn’t get in because he lacked faith.

When you plant a seed in the ground and water it. You have faith that it will grow into a big tree and produce fruit…and you get to realize that fruit.

Just because you can’t see the wind does not mean it isn’t there.
[/quote]
Those who do things purely because they have faith in the outcome or those “controlling” the outcome do so from a lack of understanding of the principles of what makes things work.

When a seed is planted one does not need faith that it will germinate if one understands what makes it germinate–to use your analogy.

Faith and religion are the byproduct of ignorance. It is through the thousands of years of ignorance (through no fault of human species other than natural technical/scientific progression) that we are still struggling to shrug off the shroud of ignorance. It is through learning and understanding our environment/universe that we can overcome this ignorance. This does not mean we can know everyting.

I don’t beleive in god not out of faith that there is no god but because I know from scientific fact that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed and I sum it up the philosophical equivalent of “which came first? The chiken or the egg?” Except I phrase it soemthing like this: “Which came first? Energy and matter or god”

82

I don’t know where people get off saying there is “Overwhelming Evidence”.

Try reading “Don’t Know Much About the Bible”, author is Kenneth Davis. Davis is a well know author of many books in the historical catagory.

Google search the name “Gilgamesh”. Gilgamesh is the oldest known documented stories known to man. Make sure you read all Tablets. You will find a very familiar reference to Noah’s Ark.

The Bible has been translated so many times by so many different peoples that it has long lost its original meanings.

If religion makes better communities then wonderful, but more people in history have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason.

You “believers” can have your religion. I will be happy if everyone just tries to be a good person for humanity.

Do some research before claiming “Overwhelming Evidence”. What evidence is there? The Bible? That’s why it called “Faith” and not “Truth”.

Be good, people.

83

[quote]pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Could you show the scripture? I have not read the entire bible and have never claimed to. I also hate discussion based on what someone “remembers” a scripture read.

Kings 1, 7:23 -

He made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim and five cubits high. It took a line of thirty cubits to measure around it.

You do realize that estimates of measurement were pften related to the average length of body parts at that time, right? I honestly don’t see what you take issue with…aside from being picky.

It does not matter what the lenght of a cubit was, as long as the length stayed identical for both distances. You can measure with your dick if you want, as long as it stays flaccid of erect throughout.

You can call it being picky if you want, but pi’s value was already known to a better precision than 3 at that time. For a work supposedly “inspired by God” or even “inerrant”, that lack of precision simply argues against both propositions.[/quote]

I am wondering why you are looking to this verse for an explanation of pi at all. This is discussing the building of King Solomon’s Temple. Explain to me why you are looking to this description of the building to equal pi exactly. If you know something I don’t, enlighten me. 30 Cubits is about 45 feet. 10 cubits is about 15 feet.

84

[quote]vroom wrote:
It wouldn’t mean shit at all if you understand the concept that no energy can be destroyed and that in the concept of an “afterlife”, the faith needed to reach the ultimate state of being is being rejected by you.

ProfX, if you go down this road, I’m not sure it will work well.

I can have faith in a lot of things, and that energy will be available in your scenario. Why does it matter than I have faith in a certain belief?

What you apparently require within your description is some type of ability to screen based on what topic this faith energy is concentrated on.

A more traditional view of course provides a judge. A parent, if you will, that will either spank you or reward you for your time here. Strangely, as mentioned by one above, it matters not how well or poorly you behave, only that you believe.

How unfortunate for us that we have this little loophole.

[/quote]
Or ask yourself this question: We know energy cannot be created or destroyed so if it couldn’t have been destroyed then it must have always exisited. If god created everything but couldn’t have created energy because it always has had to exist then where does that leave us–logical breakdown? Also we know to a degree of certainty the makeup of of the cosmos both energy and matter–What is God made of?

85

[quote]DeepSouth wrote:
When you plant a seed in the ground and water it. You have faith that it will grow into a big tree and produce fruit…and you get to realize that fruit.
[/quote]

Because that’s been done over and over again. Because it’s been done by someone else already if not done by yourself already. Because it’s been demonstrated to be successful over and over again. Because it’s withstood the test of time. Show me someone who’s seen Jesus Christ or who’s gone to heaven and I’ll have “faith”.

But I can feel it. I can’t feel god, I can’t feel heaven… While that doesn’t not mean it’s NOT there, but it does mean I am not ready to admit it IS there.

86

[quote]tjd772 wrote:
Let me preface this by answering the original question, no i do not believe in a judeo-christian god or jesus. the reason for this does not stem from any sort of lack of faith or trusting the tenets of evolution. it stems, rather, from my distrust of the bible. the first issue that i have with the bible is that establishes a power structure and tells people that revolution and being a “traitor” are sins of the highest order and are punishable by eternity in the deepest layer of hell, where lucifer himself was sent. this is established both in the story about the war in heaven and in the first commandment (not worshipping anything more than god).

because many of the people who administer religion are so closely tied to politics (are and always have been), and many power figures claim to be attached in some way or another to god, the message is “if you go against this representative of god you have taken something as higher than god and therefore broken the first commandment, and here’s what happens to those, who in their pride, break the first commandment.”

does this mean that the founding fathers of our country are now in the depths of hell with lucifer himself since they went against the king of england who was supposed to be an instrument of god? or does this mean that they were the righteous and that the soldiers who fought and died for their country (though being commanded by a “tyrant”, i.e. the british soldiers) who were otherwise good men and christians are now punished in the depths of hell for their actions?

my other main issue with the bible is that we here in America read from a bible that is written in our language, not the one that it was originally written in. this will, undoubtedly lead to many important messages and impressions being taken out of context. one example of how things can be lost in translation (though not necessarily relevan to this discussion) is the commandment that in english reads “thou shalt not kill”. great, good rule. however, in the original hebrew text, the direct translation would be “thou shalt not murder”. BIIIIIG difference. if things like this happened throughout the translation of the bible, which they undoubtedly did, then the words that so many are talking as absolute and divine truth are skewed and not in line with what god originally wanted his children to know about him and his nature.

Well thats all i really have the energy to type right now, but why does it seem like everyone on this sight is either christian or some form of atheis/agnostic? where are the opinions from the jews, muslims, mormons, etc.? i think that by adding the opinions of different religious groups, this discussion will really open up (though that may not be what we want/need on a body building / power lifting site).

TJ
[/quote]
Very good argument and also states many issues I have with Judeo-Chritian morals and ethics.

87

Most religious beliefs cater to a psychological need that has no correlation with truth at all.

Altough some have profound experiences, i see no difference between a muslim having them, a christian having them or a buddhist or hindu having such experiences.

Because religious truths are utterly subjective, no other meaning can be derived from it than the individual wants it to have.

Religious beliefs have therefore nothing to do with solid, objective truth [if such a thing exists at all].

88

[quote]Miserere wrote:
The Romans had lists of everything. The Romans recorded everything. There were historians who lived in the time of Jesus who wrote plenty of books. If Jesus caused such a social commotion as the New Testament says he did, then his name should really have appeared on some official text somewhere.

As far as I’m aware, it hasn’t.[/quote]

Well, Josephus mention Jesus “the so-called Christ” when referring to the stoning death of his brother James. Tacitus also mentions Jesus. As far as official records go, we don’t (as far as I know) have that many. Jesus would’ve barely been a blip on the radar for the Romans at the time. Believe it or not, they had much better things to do than to worry about every wandering mystic with a cult (there were many).

Paul, we know, was a real person and a Roman citizen. He wrote letters that have been copied and survived to this day. We also know that Jews were crucified by the Romans, and that Jesus’s brother James fought with Paul for control of the church. I don’t think it’s outlandish to suggest that a historical Jesus was likely to have existed.

89

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I don’t beleive in god not out of faith that their is no god but because I know from scientific fact that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed and I sum it up the philosophical equivalent of “which came first? The chiken or the egg?” Except I phrase it soemthing like this: “Which came first? Energy and matter or god”[/quote]

Which means you believe that “energy” always was and will be, and need no explanation of its beginning other than a “pop” or “bang” into existance?

90

[quote]I can have faith in a lot of things, and that energy will be available in your scenario. Why does it matter than I have faith in a certain belief?

It doesn’t unless this is concerning the concept of getting into “heaven”.[/quote]

Okay, I’m trying to understand here. You say that getting into “heaven” requires a certain type faith. At least that is what I’m reading out of your statement.

[quote]What you apparently require within your description is some type of ability to screen based on what topic this faith energy is concentrated on.

What? I didn’t write any such thing. I wrote that faith is necessary. Why make it more complicated than it really is? [/quote]

I’m not trying to make it more complicated, I’m trying to understand. Does your faith have to be about something special, and if so, why?

I have faith in a lot of things. However, apparently this isn’t enough to get me into “heaven”.

How can this be if there is no judgement taking place? Is the energy posessed by faith, using your description, different based on what you have faith in or the strength of your faith in it?

91

Amen to that!

Good post. Every post on this site does seem to degrade into a perpetual war between the two groups who dont seem to realize the FUCKING TRUTH IS THAT YOURE ALL USING DIVERGANT MODES OF PERCEPTION ANALYSIS AND WILL NEVER FUCKING COME TO A RESOLUTION ON THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC BECAUSE “WINNING” THIS ARGUMENT IS TOO DAMN IMPERATIVE TO YOUR MENTAL AND SPIRITUAL WELL-BEING AND LOSING WILL SEND YOU INTO A SWIRLING CHAOS AS THE FORT YOUVE BUILT AROUND YOUR RESPECTIVE BELEIFS CRUMBLES AND IS TAKEN OVER BY THE OPPOSING ARMY!

After which you will slip into a depression and fade away never to be thought of again…

With that aside. Ive been off the sauce for a month now and am loving it.

Amir

[quote]MaloVerde wrote:
I don’t know where people get off saying there is “Overwhelming Evidence”.

Try reading “Don’t Know Much About the Bible”, author is Kenneth Davis. Davis is a well know author of many books in the historical catagory.

Google search the name “Gilgamesh”. Gilgamesh is the oldest known documented stories known to man. Make sure you read all Tablets. You will find a very familiar reference to Noah’s Ark.

The Bible has been translated so many times by so many different peoples that it has long lost its original meanings.

If religion makes better communities then wonderful, but more people in history have been killed in the name of religion than for any other reason.

You “believers” can have your religion. I will be happy if everyone just tries to be a good person for humanity.

Do some research before claiming “Overwhelming Evidence”. What evidence is there? The Bible? That’s why it called “Faith” and not “Truth”.

Be good, people. [/quote]

92

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am wondering why you are looking to this verse for an explanation of pi at all. This is discussing the building of King Solomon’s Temple. Explain to me why you are looking to this description of the building to equal pi exactly. If you know something I don’t, enlighten me. 30 Cubits is about 45 feet. 5 cubits is about 15 feet.
[/quote]
Because he doesn’t realize that pi is not a measurement of diplacement it is a ratio between the radius of a circle and it’s circumference–amoung other geometric shapes. The Greeks knew this before the bible was written.

93

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Or ask yourself this question: We know energy cannot be created or destroyed so if it couldn’t have been destroyed then it must have always exisited. If god created everything but couldn’t have created energy because it always has had to exist then where does that leave us–logical breakdown? Also we know to a degree of certainty the makeup of of the cosmos both energy and matter–What is God made of?[/quote]

Wait, “If god created everything but couldn’t have created energy…”. There is no way we will force anyone to believe what they don’t want to already…but this concept confuses me. It confuses me because no one who believes in God would limit what “he” created or what “he” can do…yet you just did as if that was the only way you could process the information.

94

[quote]vroom wrote:
Okay, I’m trying to understand here. You say that getting into “heaven” requires a certain type faith. At least that is what I’m reading out of your statement.[/quote]

Certain type of faith? No. It requires faith in God. That doesn’t require a “type” of faith. In fact, it requires very little faith.

[quote]

I’m not trying to make it more complicated, I’m trying to understand. Does your faith have to be about something special, and if so, why?[/quote]

Are you asking why we should have faith in God when it is believed by Christians that God is what set us here in this reality in the first place? The answer is because those are the rules “he” established.

[quote]
I have faith in a lot of things. However, apparently this isn’t enough to get me into “heaven”.[/quote]

Why would you even believe in heaven yet have no faith in God? Quit playing games. Or at least do better at playing them.

95

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I don’t beleive in god not out of faith that their is no god but because I know from scientific fact that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed and I sum it up the philosophical equivalent of “which came first? The chiken or the egg?” Except I phrase it soemthing like this: “Which came first? Energy and matter or god”

Which means you believe that “energy” always was and will be, and need no explanation of its beginning other than a “pop” or “bang” into existance?
[/quote]
We have to make the incorrect assumption (IMHO) that the bang or pop you referred to is a singularity in the creation of the universe. I believe in a ?rubber-band? theory. It is constantly is expanding and contracting–as in harmonic motion (though deriving a ?wave equation? to explain it is beyond my intention). Right now it appears to be expanding which is where the original idea of the “Big Bang” comes from (the universe exploded outward in a ?big bang?). I suggest that this is incorrect. There was not a singular event that created the universe as we know it. This is my current area of research–theoretically not experimentally.

96

[quote]tjd772 wrote:
Let me preface this by answering the original question, no i do not believe in a judeo-christian god or jesus. the reason for this does not stem from any sort of lack of faith or trusting the tenets of evolution. it stems, rather, from my distrust of the bible. the first issue that i have with the bible is that establishes a power structure and tells people that revolution and being a “traitor” are sins of the highest order and are punishable by eternity in the deepest layer of hell, where lucifer himself was sent. this is established both in the story about the war in heaven and in the first commandment (not worshipping anything more than god).

because many of the people who administer religion are so closely tied to politics (are and always have been), and many power figures claim to be attached in some way or another to god, the message is “if you go against this representative of god you have taken something as higher than god and therefore broken the first commandment, and here’s what happens to those, who in their pride, break the first commandment.”

does this mean that the founding fathers of our country are now in the depths of hell with lucifer himself since they went against the king of england who was supposed to be an instrument of god? or does this mean that they were the righteous and that the soldiers who fought and died for their country (though being commanded by a “tyrant”, i.e. the british soldiers) who were otherwise good men and christians are now punished in the depths of hell for their actions?[/quote]

It sounds like your problem is with religion, not with God. Probably no religion (some do a better job than others) is perfectly “in tune” with what God wants of us. Just because somebody claims to be a represetative of God, doesn’t make it so. History is filled with people who warp & bastardize Gods words to suite their own ends. [quote]

my other main issue with the bible is that we here in America read from a bible that is written in our language, not the one that it was originally written in. this will, undoubtedly lead to many important messages and impressions being taken out of context. one example of how things can be lost in translation (though not necessarily relevan to this discussion) is the commandment that in english reads “thou shalt not kill”. great, good rule. however, in the original hebrew text, the direct translation would be “thou shalt not murder”. BIIIIIG difference. if things like this happened throughout the translation of the bible, which they undoubtedly did, then the words that so many are talking as absolute and divine truth are skewed and not in line with what god originally wanted his children to know about him and his nature. [/quote]

Very good point.[quote]

Well thats all i really have the energy to type right now, but why does it seem like everyone on this sight is either christian or some form of atheis/agnostic? where are the opinions from the jews, muslims, mormons, etc.? i think that by adding the opinions of different religious groups, this discussion will really open up (though that may not be what we want/need on a body building / power lifting site).

TJ[/quote]

97

Just to put in my two cents:

I always wished I could have been religious. For a long time I was forced to go to church as a youth. For a long time I really tried to pray and believe, but when I went to school I kept learning about stuff like physics, electromagnetics, and archaeology that just kept shooting down all my hopes for belief. Scientists can explain to me the events of the world with laws and theorums that are more evidenced and make more sense to me than those of the judeo-christian god.

My best way to sum it up? from “A Prayer for Owen Meany” by John Irving. A character, Owen, is asked why he doesn’t believe in god. He responds along the lines of, “Some people say that when god sends them a sign, a miracle, they’ll believe. I say that beleif is the miracle.” I couldn’t agree more.

I worked very hard for a long time to believe in an invisible god. I’ve seen ‘sunday’ christians, I’ve seen ‘christians’ killing each other. I have yet to see a single reason to beleive in an unseen, unexplainable, unheard and to me, unbeleivable god.

Point 2: To my best explanation, PHYSICS is god. Omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. Oh and explain what particle constituing the body is NOT subject to the laws of physics. Because I still can’t rationalize the existance of free will. (A result of evolution? evolved to feel we’re making out own choices to make us fight harder to stay alive?)

98

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am wondering why you are looking to this verse for an explanation of pi at all. This is discussing the building of King Solomon’s Temple. Explain to me why you are looking to this description of the building to equal pi exactly. If you know something I don’t, enlighten me. 30 Cubits is about 45 feet. 10 cubits is about 15 feet.[/quote]

I’m using this verse because it’s the only one that gives both the diameter (10 cubits) and the circumference (30 cubits) of a circle. pi is the ratio between the diameter and the circumference of a circle. The unit of measure or the size of the circle does not matter, the ratio is always 3.14159… It is special in the fact that it is an irrational number, you cannot write it as the ratio of two integers.

It is often approximated by 22/7 (3 digits of precision) or 355/113 (six digits of precision). 30/10 (or 45/15) is an atrocious approximation. Even with lousy measuring tools, you should at least get 31 cubits (giving 3.1 as the approximation).

99

Belief = War

100

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Those who do things purely because they have faith in the outcome or those “controlling” the outcome do so from a lack of understanding of the principles of what makes things work.

When a seed is planted one does not need faith that it will germinate if one understands what makes it germinate–to use your analogy.

Faith and religion are the byproduct of ignorance. It is through the thousands of years of ignorance (through no fault of human species other than natural technical/scientific progression) that we are still struggling to shrug off the shroud of ignorance. It is through learning and understanding our environment/universe that we can overcome this ignorance. This does not mean we can know everyting.

I don’t beleive in god not out of faith that there is no god but because I know from scientific fact that matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed and I sum it up the philosophical equivalent of “which came first? The chiken or the egg?” Except I phrase it soemthing like this: “Which came first? Energy and matter or god”[/quote]

Have you ever considered that there may be things that are beyond our understanding? That there are things out there bigger & better than the human mind?