believe in a higher power (or god if that’s what you want to call it) but don’t and can’t believe in the bible as a historical document.
and rainjack, i hear what you’re saying, but sometimes even the simplest questions are deserving of more than just a yes or no answer, and this is most certainly one of them.
[quote]fatsensei wrote:
It seems that there have been alot of discussions on evolution/creation lately and it also seems that the majority of T-Nation leans towards evolution.
I’m not interested in a debate of who’s right or wrong I’m just interested in who believes that God created us and his son Jesus came and died on the cross for our sins so that if we believe in Him and trust in Him for salvation that you will go to heaven.
Just curious.
FatSensei[/quote]
Absolutely I believe.
IMHO, Genesis can’t be taken literally. How long is seven days to God, who is outside of time? Who’s to say the sixth “day”, when God created man wasn’t a million of our years long, and encompassed all of human evolution. I don’t think creationism and evoultionism are mutually exclusive.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I knowingly through in some commentary because I think this is a decent topic. I thought “yes or no” was pretty boring. My bad.[/quote]
I wasn’t trying to rag on anyone. I was just making an observation.
For some reason politics and religion are not ‘yes or no’ propositions. Never have been. Never will be.
Maybe that’s why they debated so vociferously here. The freedom/anonymity of cyberspace allows us to talk and argue about subjects that are tabboo in most other social settings.
Christ alone.
Faith alone.
Scripture alone.
Sums me up nicely.
See you in the clearing at the end of the path. ;-).
DH
And I’m not interested in an argument, but more and more scientists are turning to Intelligent Design and the Anthropic Principle. Not because of an a priori assumption, but rather due to the evidence swaying them.
Romans 1:20-25
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
I believe.
Do you believe in god that satisfies
Do you believe in god that opens eyes
Do you believe in god that tells you lies
Or do you believe in Me?
Do you believe in a god that brings you down
Do you believe in a god that wears a crown
Do you believe in a god that makes you bow
Or do you believe in ME?
I am a believer the evidence is overwhelming. Though I do not belive we all go to heaven or that there is some fire pit where we get tormented for eternity.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Absolutely I believe.
IMHO, Genesis can’t be taken literally. How long is seven days to God, who is outside of time? Who’s to say the sixth “day”, when God created man wasn’t a million of our years long, and encompassed all of human evolution. I don’t think creationism and evoultionism are mutually exclusive. [/quote]
I also fully believe. However i have a question. Do you believe that Gensis did actually occur and God breathed life into adam and created eve from adam’s rib etc? or is this just made up? I believe it happened but you seem to be contradicting yourself.
teenlifter
[quote]rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe.[/quote]
That’s called “Pascal’s wager” from Blaise Pascal who first proposed it (or at least published it.)
It is possible to live one’s life lawfully and ethically without believing in God. If there is a God and he decides to punish me for being honest in my beliefs well that’s a pretty petty God. I already live a good, ethical, law-abiding life. I give to charities, I take care of my kids, I help my friends and neighbors. I’m faithful to my wife, I work hard, pay my taxes and I keep my word when I give it. It wouldn’t be very hard for me to simply fake it; go to church on sunday and say all the right things at the right places. It’s not like I didn’t learn them as a kid. But I would feel dishonest in doing so. If there really is a God, he’d know that I’m just playing along, right? I rather stay true to what I believe, or don’t believe in this case. It’s not like I’m expecting an afterlife anyway.
I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.
Can we just pick and choose what parts of the Bible we believe? If we don’t believe in a six day creation or in heaven or hell, why believe any of it?
[quote]WORKING wrote:
I am a believer the evidence is overwhelming. Though I do not belive we all go to heaven or that there is some fire pit where we get tormented for eternity. [/quote]
I’m curious about this position. If you believe, shouldn’t you believe the whole thing? Are you sure you’re allowed to pick and choose the parts you like? If religion is like a chinese buffet, then we’re both religious, I just take less from the buffet than most do.
[quote]teenlifter16 wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Absolutely I believe.
IMHO, Genesis can’t be taken literally. How long is seven days to God, who is outside of time? Who’s to say the sixth “day”, when God created man wasn’t a million of our years long, and encompassed all of human evolution. I don’t think creationism and evoultionism are mutually exclusive.
I also fully believe. However i have a question. Do you believe that Gensis did actually occur and God breathed life into adam and created eve from adam’s rib etc? or is this just made up? I believe it happened but you seem to be contradicting yourself.
teenlifter
[/quote]
I think many things written in the bible are written with a poorer understanding of the observer in comparison to where we are “mentally” today. That is my honest understanding of it. To me, it sounds almost like genetic research. “Taking a rib” could be related to our concept of surgery or even cloning. There are many concepts in the bible that I relate to in that way. If someone from a few thousand years ago saw a television today, how would they describe it?
[quote]pookie wrote:
rocksolid wrote:
I absolutely believe. And for those who do not, here is an interesting thought. If I am wrong, and I go through life believing in Christ and his sacrifice on the cross for my sins but in the end we just die and go nowhere, oh well. But if I am right, and nonbelievers are doomed to an eternity in separation from their Creator, what a big mistake it would have been to not believe.
That’s called “Pascal’s wager” from Blaise Pascal who first proposed it (or at least published it.)
It is possible to live one’s life lawfully and ethically without believing in God. If there is a God and he decides to punish me for being honest in my beliefs well that’s a pretty petty God. I already live a good, ethical, law-abiding life. I give to charities, I take care of my kids, I help my friends and neighbors. I’m faithful to my wife, I work hard, pay my taxes and I keep my word when I give it. It wouldn’t be very hard for me to simply fake it; go to church on sunday and say all the right things at the right places. It’s not like I didn’t learn them as a kid. But I would feel dishonest in doing so. If there really is a God, he’d know that I’m just playing along, right? I rather stay true to what I believe, or don’t believe in this case. It’s not like I’m expecting an afterlife anyway.
I’d rather be an honest atheist than a deceitful believer.[/quote]
The church is filled with people who simply go through the motions. You are no more “guilty” of avoiding the concept of God as a reality than they are.
I think what you believe, in regards to what label or name you attach to it, is less relevant than how you conduct yourself within your belief. Whatever your spiritual belief is, it should bring you peice, compassion, self respect, courtesy and tolerance towards others. If not, than you’re likely not living up to the tenants of your spiritual belief system. Sadly, throughout the world, this seems to be more the norm than the exception.
[quote]teenlifter16 wrote:
I also fully believe. However i have a question. Do you believe that Gensis did actually occur and God breathed life into adam and created eve from adam’s rib etc? or is this just made up? I believe it happened but you seem to be contradicting yourself.
teenlifter
[/quote]
It’s my personal theory that Genesis was written by mortal men. God showed them what happened through a series of visions (it’s just a theory, remember) and they intrepreted those visions as best they could. Yes, I believed God caused man to come alive, yes I believe he created eve from adam, but I don’t take Genesis word for word literally.
[quote]deanec wrote:
Can we just pick and choose what parts of the Bible we believe? If we don’t believe in a six day creation or in heaven or hell, why believe any of it?[/quote]
I believe it all, but the meaning of many parts of the Bible are complex and open to interpretation. Most churches are based on slightly different intepretations, and provide Bible study groups to help guide laymen with their (the churches)interpretaion. This is just my personal interpretaion of Genesis.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
The church is filled with people who simply go through the motions. You are no more “guilty” of avoiding the concept of God as a reality than they are. [/quote]
I think if more people would understand this - then the discussion about faith would not be so polarizing.
I also think that faith has been stapled to works for eons, and if you actually listen/read what Christ said - one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Heck - the very first christian was a thief/murderer that was being executed. Hardly time for him to go through the motions that ‘religious’ people would have made him go through today. Yet Jesus creditied his faith as righteousness, and the criminal is sitting in paradise right now.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
My faith is not something that should piss people off - but it does. Why is that? [/quote]
I don’t really care about other’s beliefs. I respect the right for anyone to believe in what he wants. I don’t necessarily respect the belief itself (some are pretty amusing), but your right to believe in it, yes.
What is annoying, or pisses people off, is when laws affecting everyone are passed based on the beliefs of the majority.
Prayer in school; putting crucifix in public meeting places; teaching Intelligent Design as science; opposing some branches of research, etc.
Basically, whenever some belief is, in some form or other, forced upon me. That I don’t like.
Maybe some people feel stupid for believing in the stuff they do and don’t like being reminded? It’s just a theory. 
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think many things written in the bible are written with a poorer understanding of the observer in comparison to where we are “mentally” today. That is my honest understanding of it. To me, it sounds almost like genetic research. “Taking a rib” could be related to our concept of surgery or even cloning. There are many concepts in the bible that I relate to in that way. If someone from a few thousand years ago saw a television today, how would they describe it?
[/quote]
Interesting, so what is your belief on Jesus performing miricales? Could it also be possibe to say that again perhaps we are not “mentally” advanced to understand it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I think many things written in the bible are written with a poorer understanding of the observer in comparison to where we are “mentally” today. That is my honest understanding of it. To me, it sounds almost like genetic research. “Taking a rib” could be related to our concept of surgery or even cloning. There are many concepts in the bible that I relate to in that way. If someone from a few thousand years ago saw a television today, how would they describe it?
[/quote]
Yes, it is unrealist to expect a text written thousands of years ago to reflect today’s reality. But the Bible gets other stuff wrong that can’t be discounted on the basis of time.
For example, the value for pi is given as 3 (from 30/10). If there really was Divine Inspiration, a couple of decimals more would’ve been extremely impressive. Or a simple verse mentioning the “specialness” of this number, even without further details, when they had no way of knowing this back then, would’ve been very convincing evidence of such Divine Inspiration. Being inspired by God to write it down as 3, well… not so much.