[quote]jonnyblaze wrote:
How about the fact that he performed lots of miracles while alive and appeared numerous times to his followers after he was supposed to be dead and in the grave? …IF the resurrection were not true, then Christianity is just a sham and Jesus was just a regular dude. Simple as that. But I tend to believe that those followers weren’t just making up stories since they not only were put to death, but typically also tortured pretty brutally for talking about it.
[/quote]
Holy books from other religions are filled with similar stories, yet Christians dismiss them out of hand. Why are you willing to accept biblical stories as valid, while automatically concluding the other stories are false? Clearly, you believe that history, as recorded in holy books, can be flat out wrong…you just don’t believe it applies to your particular holy book.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Of course there are “many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust.” Why? Because the stories are about people. And people ARE evil and unjust.[/quote]
It’s not the stories about evil people that are disconcerting, but the stories of people being commanded to do evil things by their god.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Alright well I believe in YWHW so whatever God that is sign me up. The rest no thanks. If I do believe in God, I treated a few more people nicer, I gave a few more bucks to someone that needed it, I had a few more friends, I sang a little more, and I woke up early on Sundays and took a sip of brandy at 9 AM for the rest of my life.[/quote]
Congrats, you now have a .1% chance of winning the big prize! Pretty slim odds, when you consider the cost of worshiping YWHW. You’ve already said that your lifestyle is at odds a lot of the time with YWHW’s will, so it can be tough.
Seriously though, why do you need to believe in YWHW in order to treat a few people nicer and sing a little more? Wouldn’t it be even nobler and more sincere if you did these things for their own sake?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Interesting, I know plenty of people that are nicer than me, less racist them me, less vulgar than me, drink less than me, scare little kids less than me, but how does that get them into Heaven? If they do not believe, all that stuff does not mean anything. The only thing of real value to me is my outcome, I am sure 100 percent I want to be in Heaven with Jesus. My half dozen decades I have left on this earth is a lot shorter than what eternity is, so everything I accumulate isn’t going to really help me much after I die. Especially if I do not have faith. [/quote]
So you admit that it is possible to be a good human being, even to a greater degree, as a non-believer than as a believer.
Yet “all that stuff does not mean anything”? WTF?
Being a good human being is everything. If your “god” happens to be real, that will just be icing on the cake. In the meantime, you will have lived a rich, loving, meaningful life.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Bottom line is, it is the height of arrogance and hubris when the paean shakes his tiny little fist at the Omnipotent One and shrilly assigns evil and injustice to his Creator and Savior. It’s always a no-win situation for the paean. Every. Single. Time.[/quote]
How is it arrogance to hold someone’s god to that god’s own self-proclaimed standards? If you don’t do so, it is literally possible to justify ANY atrocity in the name of it being “god’s will”.
[quote]forlife wrote:
jonnyblaze wrote:
How about the fact that he performed lots of miracles while alive and appeared numerous times to his followers after he was supposed to be dead and in the grave? …IF the resurrection were not true, then Christianity is just a sham and Jesus was just a regular dude. Simple as that. But I tend to believe that those followers weren’t just making up stories since they not only were put to death, but typically also tortured pretty brutally for talking about it.
Holy books from other religions are filled with similar stories, yet Christians dismiss them out of hand. Why are you willing to accept biblical stories as valid, while automatically concluding the other stories are false? Clearly, you believe that history, as recorded in holy books, can be flat out wrong…you just don’t believe it applies to your particular holy book.[/quote]
Who said that I don’t believe stories of these types of events in other holy books? The difference is that none of these other men (Muhammad, Bhudda, etc.) never actually claimed to be God. Jesus did… Then he backed it up by showing up to dinner after he was supposed to be dead.
[quote]jonnyblaze wrote:
Who said that I don’t believe stories of these types of events in other holy books? The difference is that none of these other men (Muhammad, Bhudda, etc.) never actually claimed to be God. Jesus did… Then he backed it up by showing up to dinner after he was supposed to be dead. [/quote]
If these miracles really did occur in other holy books, and if the belief systems promoted in those holy books directly contradict the belief system in your own holy book, who is actually right?
[quote]forlife wrote:
jonnyblaze wrote:
How about the fact that he performed lots of miracles while alive and appeared numerous times to his followers after he was supposed to be dead and in the grave? …IF the resurrection were not true, then Christianity is just a sham and Jesus was just a regular dude. Simple as that. But I tend to believe that those followers weren’t just making up stories since they not only were put to death, but typically also tortured pretty brutally for talking about it.
Holy books from other religions are filled with similar stories, yet Christians dismiss them out of hand. Why are you willing to accept biblical stories as valid, while automatically concluding the other stories are false? Clearly, you believe that history, as recorded in holy books, can be flat out wrong…you just don’t believe it applies to your particular holy book.[/quote]
Because in order to love the Truth, you have to hate the false. Just like you that hate Christians, because you love your atheists science.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Because in order to love the Truth, you have to hate the false. Just like you that hate Christians, because you love your atheists science.[/quote]
You missed the point of the question, which was that just because something is recorded in someone’s holy book doesn’t mean that it actually happened.
[quote]byukid wrote:
forlife wrote:
byukid wrote:
EVERYBODY IS ALL WRONG. EVEN ME.
That’s a pretty unusual perspective for a Mormon, kudos Admitting your ignorance is the first step to wisdom.
The only problem is that you also fit the set of people I accuse of being wrong.
At least, with the Mormon belief, everyone gets a chance, whether living or dead, to hear and accept. That’s probably my favorite part about it. [/quote]
Haha, the Mormon kid sucked in the atheist. Didn’t even try.
[quote]byukid wrote:
The only problem is that you also fit the set of people I accuse of being wrong.
At least, with the Mormon belief, everyone gets a chance, whether living or dead, to hear and accept. That’s probably my favorite part about it. [/quote]
According to Mormon belief, everyone is wrong, except them. Sure, everyone gets a chance to hear their doctrine, but if they don’t agree with them after getting that chance, they will never be able to inherit eternal life.
[quote]forlife wrote:
jonnyblaze wrote:
Who said that I don’t believe stories of these types of events in other holy books? The difference is that none of these other men (Muhammad, Bhudda, etc.) never actually claimed to be God. Jesus did… Then he backed it up by showing up to dinner after he was supposed to be dead.
If these miracles really did occur in other holy books, and if the belief systems promoted in those holy books directly contradict the belief system in your own holy book, who is actually right?[/quote]
I think you know where I stand on that since I am in fact Christian - obviously I believe the Christian way of life is the way to go or I wouldn’t bother with it (I’m definitely not one of these Paschal’s wager guys). It’s not as if God working miracles through non-Christians somehow endorses their entire belief system. I understand where you’re coming from, but I think you’re drawing conclusions that just aren’t there. There are certainly elements of Truth in other belief systems, but Christianity just offers a better and more complete alternative.
I personally think if we all could focus on those elements of Truth we agree on and then intelligently discuss the differences, we’d be a lot better off (and probably not turn as many people off to religion bc of “holy” violence). But that just proves that Christians are flawed, not Christianity itself.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
byukid wrote:
forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Haha, the Mormon kid sucked in the atheist. Didn’t even try.
Actually, I’m an ex-Mormon agnostic
You’re an ex-mo? Cool. I had a big reply typed up, but then I read that, and I knew you’ve probably heard it all.
Let’s hear it!
P.S. I’m Catholic, so don’t try anything to extreme, but I do like if anyone has the balls to tell me their faith to my face or even the internet.[/quote]
Admitting your ignorance is the first step to wisdom.