[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Let’s say you don’t, and God isn’t real. Then you lived your life and you are dead.
Let’s say you don’t, and God is real. Then you lived your life and now you are in hell forever.
Might want to be on the safe side. [/quote]
I hate when people say things like this. It shows they have no real value in the ideals of the religion, but rather the outcome of their own situation.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
I lost my faith over the past few years. If God does exist, he has been ignoring all my prayers. If I had a child and he begged me for help, I would most certainly help him in some way or form. I am not an evil person and feel I have been tested enough. This struggle lead me to question what I actually believed in. And this lead me to not take much stake in the idea of a God. If there is a God, he has some explaining to do on why there is so much suffering in the world and why he hasn’t lifted a finger to stop it.[/quote]
Who are YOU to feel that you have been tested enough? What gives YOU the right? Just kidding. I sympathize with you, I’ve been down that same road. Maybe I’m no spiritual enough, or didn’t believe hard enough. Whatever, my life is just fine as long as I respect myself and the others around me, and value my friends and family. That’s all that really counts, life is too short.
[quote]
Also, there are simply too many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust to me. It’s really not a very moral book if you actually take the time to read it.[/quote]
Too many people take that book too literally. There are some good principles in there, but to base my life around it would be, to me, ridiculous. The idea’s that go around in there are outdated and barbaric, for the most past. But people choose to ignore the old testament when all the killing went on at the hand of God. Instead, cherry picking what to use and what to throw away is a much easier solution, so it works for you and fits into your “good” ways. That’s how you can have so many various religions with their slightly modified version of the same story.
[quote]
So I guess, the most honest answer I (or anyone for that matter) could give is I don’t know as I haven’t died yet.[/quote]
Precisely; No. One. knows.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Let’s say you don’t, and God isn’t real. Then you lived your life and you are dead.
Let’s say you don’t, and God is real. Then you lived your life and now you are in hell forever.
Might want to be on the safe side.
I hate when people say things like this. It shows they have no real value in the ideals of the religion, but rather the outcome of their own situation.[/quote]
Agree. Pascal’s wager is a poor cop-out. Do it for yourself, not for the off chance that there is a “God”.
[quote]CoreyK wrote:
jonnyblaze wrote:
CoreyK wrote:
jehovasfitness wrote:
CoreyK wrote:
Additionally, for me personally the evidence in support for Christianity is overwhelming.
I’d like hear more about this.
you just gotta have faith, lol
That’s the only answer I’ve ever gotten to that question, and frankly, it blows my mind.
Not sure if you’re serious enough about this idea to invest time in reading a couple books but if you ever get to that point in your life where it’s important enough to you, I’d recommend reading “Mere Christianity” by CS Lewis and maybe even “The Life of Christ” by Fulton Sheen. The Lewis book pretty much saved my faith when I had a lot of doubts – it doesn’t PROVE anything and that’s the genius of it. It simply puts forth a very logical argument showing that belief is not an entirely unreasonable/“out-there” proposition.
I would just like to see someone stop referencing and/or dropping faith bombs and tell me ONE legitimate reason to believe that Jesus Christ was divine.
Anyone?
[/quote]
How about the fact that he performed lots of miracles while alive and appeared numerous times to his followers after he was supposed to be dead and in the grave? …IF the resurrection were not true, then Christianity is just a sham and Jesus was just a regular dude. Simple as that. But I tend to believe that those followers weren’t just making up stories since they not only were put to death, but typically also tortured pretty brutally for talking about it.
Also, on a more general level, I’m not sure what your beef is with faith per se. I agree that BLIND faith should be avoided, but we operate on faith all the time. There really is a very limited amount of knowledge that is proven. Most of the time, the best we can do is probability.
[quote]Buff HardBack wrote:
What about this? Let’s say you DO, and God is real, but it turns out that people who believe in Christ have it wrong and its a different religious belief system that has it right. For arguments sake say Islam is actually how it is. What happens then?[/quote]
Well, I’d say my book is 100 percent correct so that’s like saying, what if yellow is really red. It’s not, so why even think about it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Why should there be a legitimate reason?
Let’s say you don’t, and God isn’t real. Then you lived your life and you are dead.
Let’s say you don’t, and God is real. Then you lived your life and now you are in hell forever.
Let’s say you do, and God isn’t real. Then you’ve wasted your miserable life and you are dead.
I love the whole Pascal’s Wager fallacy, because it presents a false choice. It’s not as if you’re choosing between one god and no god. The reality is that you are choosing among thousands of gods and no god. Go with god #114 instead of god #273, and you are SCREWED and bound for ETERNAL DAMNATION AND HELLFIRE! [/quote]
Alright well I believe in YWHW so whatever God that is sign me up. The rest no thanks. If I do believe in God, I treated a few more people nicer, I gave a few more bucks to someone that needed it, I had a few more friends, I sang a little more, and I woke up early on Sundays and took a sip of brandy at 9 AM for the rest of my life.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
…Also, there are simply too many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust to me. It’s really not a very moral book if you actually take the time to read it…
Of course there are “many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust.” Why? Because the stories are about people. And people ARE evil and unjust.[/quote]
Some of the people in the Bible are definitely evil and unjust, but I was thinking evil and unjust things committed directly by God:
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Let’s say you don’t, and God isn’t real. Then you lived your life and you are dead.
Let’s say you don’t, and God is real. Then you lived your life and now you are in hell forever.
Might want to be on the safe side.
I hate when people say things like this. It shows they have no real value in the ideals of the religion, but rather the outcome of their own situation.[/quote]
Obviously you have not read my other material.
Someone said give a legit reason, I guess it’s not a legit reason, but you want my absolute reason? Because without God I could not do anything, I could not be a friend, brother, I would be a nothing. I have found this out. It would be a world full of one man shows. We’d kill each other off until nothing was left.
It is really not my choice to believe, the evidence (for me) is there, it would be idiotic to know it’s true and go around saying it’s false. It’s as if I would go around saying I’m not white because I just do not want to believe, even though I look in the mirror and see my white face every morning.
However your criticism towards my first statement, how many people do you know that all of a sudden believed everything all at once and changed their entire life because you said, because I believe in the ideals like blah blah blah. You have to show them a little at time. So, you ‘believe in YWHW’ because of the ideals you believed in? Interesting, I know plenty of people that are nicer than me, less racist them me, less vulgar than me, drink less than me, scare little kids less than me, but how does that get them into Heaven? If they do not believe, all that stuff does not mean anything. The only thing of real value to me is my outcome, I am sure 100 percent I want to be in Heaven with Jesus. My half dozen decades I have left on this earth is a lot shorter than what eternity is, so everything I accumulate isn’t going to really help me much after I die. Especially if I do not have faith.
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
pushharder wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
…Also, there are simply too many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust to me. It’s really not a very moral book if you actually take the time to read it…
Of course there are “many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust.” Why? Because the stories are about people. And people ARE evil and unjust.
Some of the people in the Bible are definitely evil and unjust, but I was thinking evil and unjust things committed directly by God:
Haha, you make me laugh.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
BTW, I wonder why this thread got bumped from GAL to PWI. The topic is definitely not about politics and arguably about world issues and positively about getting a life.
???[/quote]
I think they switched it when we got in here. Or when it was brought up.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Obviously you have not read my other material.
Someone said give a legit reason, I guess it’s not a legit reason, but you want my absolute reason? Because without God I could not do anything, I could not be a friend, brother, I would be a nothing. I have found this out. It would be a world full of one man shows. We’d kill each other off until nothing was left.
[/quote]
So let me get this straight… without God, YOU couldn’t be a good friend or a good brother and would end up turning into a murderer? You really believe that?
[quote]
So, you ‘believe in YWHW’ because of the ideals you believed in? Interesting, I know plenty of people that are nicer than me, less racist them me, less vulgar than me, drink less than me, scare little kids less than me, but how does that get them into Heaven? If they do not believe, all that stuff does not mean anything. The only thing of real value to me is my outcome, I am sure 100 percent I want to be in Heaven with Jesus. My half dozen decades I have left on this earth is a lot shorter than what eternity is, so everything I accumulate isn’t going to really help me much after I die. Especially if I do not have faith. [/quote]
And you’re exactly the type of religious person I do not like. You’re selfish. The only reason you have faith in anything is for your own well being. My ideals are built around helping others, helping the environment, and trying to be a kind person to those around me… and I’m not religious at all.
So I’m wondering, why do you think Jesus would want someone like you in Heaven who’s simply using him as a backup plan?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
pushharder wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
…Also, there are simply too many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust to me. It’s really not a very moral book if you actually take the time to read it…
Of course there are “many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust.” Why? Because the stories are about people. And people ARE evil and unjust.
Some of the people in the Bible are definitely evil and unjust, but I was thinking evil and unjust things committed directly by God:
No, ALL people are evil and unjust. Romans 3:10,23
Your other three examples would take a lot more time to address than what my time affords here. Suffice it to say:
Bottom line is, it is the height of arrogance and hubris when the paean shakes his tiny little fist at the Omnipotent One and shrilly assigns evil and injustice to his Creator and Savior. It’s always a no-win situation for the paean. Every. Single. Time.[/quote]
I’ll take a look at the book. The story of Job is probably the most fascinating to me out of all the stories in the Bible.
I definitely understand the conclusion to the story of Abraham and Isaac, but it’s just crazy to me that a father would actually do that to his son if commanded by God (even though it was a test). He was going to go through it! Would you murder your son if God told you to?
You really think it’s arrogance to ask questions about what your supposed creator did? How so? Clearly, if he did create us, he gave us the ability to view what others did around us, including himself. If we use this ability to question his actions, isn’t this because that’s the way he made us? So if I end up in hell, isn’t it ultimately his fault…?
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
Obviously you have not read my other material.
Someone said give a legit reason, I guess it’s not a legit reason, but you want my absolute reason? Because without God I could not do anything, I could not be a friend, brother, I would be a nothing. I have found this out. It would be a world full of one man shows. We’d kill each other off until nothing was left.
So let me get this straight… without God, YOU couldn’t be a good friend or a good brother and would end up turning into a murderer? You really believe that?[/quote]
Never know, since God does exist I can not say, but I do not think you understand what I am saying. Without God, I could not bring anything valuable to a relationship that would last.
[quote]So, you ‘believe in YWHW’ because of the ideals you believed in? Interesting, I know plenty of people that are nicer than me, less racist them me, less vulgar than me, drink less than me, scare little kids less than me, but how does that get them into Heaven? If they do not believe, all that stuff does not mean anything. The only thing of real value to me is my outcome, I am sure 100 percent I want to be in Heaven with Jesus. My half dozen decades I have left on this earth is a lot shorter than what eternity is, so everything I accumulate isn’t going to really help me much after I die. Especially if I do not have faith.
And you’re exactly the type of religious person I do not like. You’re selfish. The only reason you have faith in anything is for your own well being. My ideals are built around helping others, helping the environment, and trying to be a kind person to those around me… and I’m not religious at all.
So I’m wondering, why do you think Jesus would want someone like you in Heaven who’s simply using him as a backup plan?[/quote]
Like I said obviously you have not read my other posts. Jesus is not my back up plan, he is my only plan. You can portray all you want on me that you struggle with. It’s not true about me though.
I do not have faith in YWHW because of my ideals. My ideals come from my belief and faith in YWHW. I am not a humanitarian, I think people are too soft. I think people are to superstitious, and I hate heretics. I am not perfect, but I do not have to be, and I do not believe I have to be this perfect citizen to believe, and have the grace of God.
So, exactly what part of me is selfish? What have I done that says I am selfish in my faith in YWHW?
[quote]BackInAction wrote:
pushharder wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
pushharder wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
…Also, there are simply too many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust to me. It’s really not a very moral book if you actually take the time to read it…
Of course there are “many stories in the Bible that seem evil and unjust.” Why? Because the stories are about people. And people ARE evil and unjust.
Some of the people in the Bible are definitely evil and unjust, but I was thinking evil and unjust things committed directly by God:
No, ALL people are evil and unjust. Romans 3:10,23
Your other three examples would take a lot more time to address than what my time affords here. Suffice it to say:
Bottom line is, it is the height of arrogance and hubris when the paean shakes his tiny little fist at the Omnipotent One and shrilly assigns evil and injustice to his Creator and Savior. It’s always a no-win situation for the paean. Every. Single. Time.
I’ll take a look at the book. The story of Job is probably the most fascinating to me out of all the stories in the Bible.
I definitely understand the conclusion to the story of Abraham and Isaac, but it’s just crazy to me that a father would actually do that to his son if commanded by God (even though it was a test). He was going to go through it! Would you murder your son if God told you to?
You really think it’s arrogance to ask questions about what your supposed creator did? How so? Clearly, if he did create us, he gave us the ability to view what others did around us, including himself. If we use this ability to question his actions, isn’t this because that’s the way he made us? So if I end up in hell, isn’t it ultimately his fault…?[/quote]
No, it’s because the absence of Him in you that you would be sent to Hell for eternity.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
BTW, I wonder why this thread got bumped from GAL to PWI. The topic is definitely not about politics and arguably about world issues and positively about getting a life.
???[/quote]
Maybe standard procedure now from back when religious lunatics trolled this site.
All religious threads get moved into P&WI and and this forum does not appear on the main page as far as most posted in threads are concerned.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
You end up in hell if you willfully reject what He has revealed to you.[/quote]
I’ll take hell over hanging out with a genocidal sexist racist bigoted bully.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
pushharder wrote:
You end up in hell if you willfully reject what He has revealed to you.
I’ll take hell over hanging out with a genocidal sexist racist bigoted bully.[/quote]
I’m sure arrangements can be made.