Which Handgun Do You Suggest?

Off Topic
64

Here is the thing with a Glock. The trigger is way different. I never owned on until about 6 mos. ago.

It will take you at least a thousand rounds to really get comfortable with it. I have my 19 set up with a NY1 trigger and a 3.5# connector. That gives it about a 5ib. trigger pull that is crisp and an ultra fast reset.

I own a lot of pistols. I mean a lot. I have owned and shot the 1911’s for years. The are great pistols. They are accurate because the design is great and the triggers are consistent on every shot. However everytime I shoot IDPA the guns that always jam are the 1911’s. Never the Glocks or XD’s. I would never carry the 1911. Great gun but not for me.

.45 vs. 9mm is an endless debate. Handgun stopping power is pretty much a myth. Both will do the job. When I carry a .45 it is a SW4506. Big gun, very accurate but it weighs in at 40oz. +. I can shoot it fast and it holds 8 in the mag. My Glock 19 holds 15 and I can shoot it real fast. Faster then any 45 I own. It’s also quick to get the first shot off and my trigger is consistent for every shot. I like the 9mm for a lot of reasons but it is a personal preference because I prefer the rapid fire and I am accurate with it.

I was also taught to shoot center of mass with a pistol. The last class I took on combat pistol techniques emphasized shot placement to the upper chest instead. A section of the class was actually taught by a doctor with gunshot experience in a major city. Said 85% of those shot with a pistol survive, and the perps know that. He also stated that one shot in the upper chest is highly likely to be terminal and he has never saved anyone with two in the upper chest.

Enough for now. Love talking about guns and shooting though.

65

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Loose Tool wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
taylorsj wrote:
I’ll take a .45ACP hollow point round that generates hundreds of pounds per square inch of force on contact, but only penetrates 5 inches into the attacker over a 9mm hollow point that generates less force on contact and is so fast that it passes through the attacker.

Thus bringing most of its energy and damage potential with it.

There is no doubt a 45 is far better than a 9 if you really have to shoot someone.

Agreed. But, the OP still needs to assess the suitability of .45 in the context of his own need, abilities and lifestyle. Carrying a .45 isn’t going to be very useful if he can’t shoot it for shit. Also, concealability matters. I own and sometimes carry a full size H&K USP in .45. In a suit, that works fine. The jacket covers the weapon. In a t-shirt and jeans, it’s hard as hell to conceal the USP, so I carry a Glock 32, in 357 Sig – a compact gun with a round that was designed to duplicate the performance of a 357 magnum. Not a bad tradeoff. The 12 round capacity is nice too.

I agree. Shoot what you enjoy but if you really think you are going to have to shoot someone grab the biggest gun you have.

How pricey is ammo for the 357 Sig?[/quote]

Wicked expensive, and hard to find. It’s actually more expensive than .45. I keep it loaded with Speer Gold Dot JHP. But I don’t shoot a lot of it. When I go to the range, I drop in a Lone Wolf .40 caliber barrel. I’ve found .40 ammo is about the same price as 9 mm.

66

[quote]hedo wrote:
Here is the thing with a Glock. The trigger is way different. I never owned on until about 6 mos. ago.

It will take you at least a thousand rounds to really get comfortable with it. I have my 19 set up with a NY1 trigger and a 3.5# connector. That gives it about a 5ib. trigger pull that is crisp and an ultra fast reset.

I own a lot of pistols. I mean a lot. I have owned and shot the 1911’s for years. The are great pistols. They are accurate because the design is great and the triggers are consistent on every shot. However everytime I shoot IDPA the guns that always jam are the 1911’s. Never the Glocks or XD’s. I would never carry the 1911. Great gun but not for me.

.45 vs. 9mm is an endless debate. Handgun stopping power is pretty much a myth. Both will do the job. When I carry a .45 it is a SW4506. Big gun, very accurate but it weighs in at 40oz. +. I can shoot it fast and it holds 8 in the mag. My Glock 19 holds 15 and I can shoot it real fast. Faster then any 45 I own. It’s also quick to get the first shot off and my trigger is consistent for every shot. I like the 9mm for a lot of reasons but it is a personal preference because I prefer the rapid fire and I am accurate with it.

I was also taught to shoot center of mass with a pistol. The last class I took on combat pistol techniques emphasized shot placement to the upper chest instead. A section of the class was actually taught by a doctor with gunshot experience in a major city. Said 85% of those shot with a pistol survive, and the perps know that. He also stated that one shot in the upper chest is highly likely to be terminal and he has never saved anyone with two in the upper chest.

Enough for now. Love talking about guns and shooting though.[/quote]

I can back up the shot in the upper chest talk.My buddy works in iraq for blackwater and has for years.He was telling me thats exactly how they train to shoot,imagine a triangle that starts at your chin and gets wider down toward your chest stopping right about at your collar bones.He says if an insurgent gets shot there especially with .223 or 7.62 hes dead.If the shot doesnt kill them initially they will bleed to death.He has shot a bunch of people and knows first hand that it works.

Another tip for shooting range enthusiasts,try turning your paper targets around so the white side is facing you.It allows you to see your shot groups better.

67

cavitation is what is crucial when selecting a caliber for personal protection. do a google search on cavitation and then make your choice regarding caliber. from there, test a few brands at a range or two and narrow it down.

68

[quote]hedo wrote:

I was also taught to shoot center of mass with a pistol. The last class I took on combat pistol techniques emphasized shot placement to the upper chest instead. A section of the class was actually taught by a doctor with gunshot experience in a major city. Said 85% of those shot with a pistol survive, and the perps know that. He also stated that one shot in the upper chest is highly likely to be terminal and he has never saved anyone with two in the upper chest.
[/quote]

Generally referred to as the “cardiovascular triangle”? Or you talking about something different? I was taught that most folks tend to shoot low, and gut shots are a slow death if they kill at all. I was given similar stats, basic conclusion was that if you pump enough lead into the heart and lungs not much can be done to keep the poor bastard alive.

Another range tip: Use sidewalk chalk to draw a trangle connecting the adams apple to the (proximity of) nipples. This will give a much smaller target area, but increase the lethality if applied to an actual combat situation.

69

[quote]Bujo wrote:
hedo wrote:

I was also taught to shoot center of mass with a pistol. The last class I took on combat pistol techniques emphasized shot placement to the upper chest instead. A section of the class was actually taught by a doctor with gunshot experience in a major city. Said 85% of those shot with a pistol survive, and the perps know that. He also stated that one shot in the upper chest is highly likely to be terminal and he has never saved anyone with two in the upper chest.

Generally referred to as the “cardiovascular triangle”? Or you talking about something different? I was taught that most folks tend to shoot low, and gut shots are a slow death if they kill at all. I was given similar stats, basic conclusion was that if you pump enough lead into the heart and lungs not much can be done to keep the poor bastard alive.

Another range tip: Use sidewalk chalk to draw a trangle connecting the adams apple to the (proximity of) nipples. This will give a much smaller target area, but increase the lethality if applied to an actual combat situation.[/quote]

Bujo that was about it. The cardio triangle is an accurate description.

70

[quote]taylorsj wrote:
I’ll take a .45ACP hollow point round that generates hundreds of pounds per square inch of force on contact, but only penetrates 5 inches into the attacker over a 9mm hollow point that generates less force on contact and is so fast that it passes through the attacker.[/quote]

the only round i know of with that little penetration is the glaser safety slug, and there can be problems with the round in cold weather with certain clothing.

Any 9mm, 40, 45 round will do the job just fine with accurate shooting and a hollowpoint that works well. The 9mm corbon 115 gr +p+ load works great. So does the 135 gr 40 caliber load. Both approximate the energy of the 357 125 gr load that was considered at one time to be top dog at stopping with one shot.

All you need to do is look at the bullet weight and speed. Once you see the foot pounds of energy (power)pick the highest that you can shoot well, regardless of caliber. Some 9mm will hit harder than some 45s and so on.

What you need to figure is, can you hit what you are shooting with it? Does the bullet perform as stated, ie opens up well?
Does it feed in your gun?

If all this is okay, buy the best round you can afford. Personally, I’m a big Cor Bon fan.

71

If you want bad ass, get a 500 SW magnum. they pack as much muzzle energy as a 308 rifle round, which is big enough for deer.

72

Go shooting at a range that rents handguns. Shoot every damn one of them. Go shooting with buddies that have guns. Do not buy a handgun until you put some rounds down range. Buy what feels good for you. Shooting is the only way to find what you want. Moreover, I also agree with the poster that said, “Save more money”.

73

Great info in this thread for us that are new to shooting.

74

[quote]tom63 wrote:
If you want bad ass, get a 500 SW magnum. they pack as much muzzle energy as a 308 rifle round, which is big enough for deer.[/quote]

I bought one of those this summer. I got the 4" barrel version.

The thing kicks like a mule and makes my .44 magnum feel downright docile in comparison. If anyone ever wants to pick up the most badass handgun in existence, I would have to side with Tom and say this is it.

75

[quote]tom63 wrote:
If you want bad ass, get a 500 SW magnum. they pack as much muzzle energy as a 308 rifle round, which is big enough for deer.[/quote]

Hehehe, I agree with this. Shooting 750gr. lead flat nose rounds will beat the living shit out of your hand, but God is it fun. Damn, I really need to take my “Kong” out one of these days. :smiley:

76

[quote]Doug Adams wrote:
tom63 wrote:
If you want bad ass, get a 500 SW magnum. they pack as much muzzle energy as a 308 rifle round, which is big enough for deer.

Hehehe, I agree with this. Shooting 750gr. lead flat nose rounds will beat the living shit out of your hand, but God is it fun. Damn, I really need to take my “Kong” out one of these days. :smiley:

[/quote]

I see guys at the indoor ranges rent these and the huge chrome plated Desert Eagles. I swear the gun must be half the size of the shooters. I don’t much care for those guns indoors, the blast knocks the dust out of the walls and the shooters generally have shitty groupings even at 5yds. Aslong as they ain’t aiming at me and they’re having fun then its ok.

77

[quote]horsepuss wrote:
I can back up the shot in the upper chest talk.My buddy works in iraq for blackwater and has for years.He was telling me thats exactly how they train to shoot,imagine a triangle that starts at your chin and gets wider down toward your chest stopping right about at your collar bones.He says if an insurgent gets shot there especially with .223 or 7.62 hes dead.If the shot doesnt kill them initially they will bleed to death.He has shot a bunch of people and knows first hand that it works.

Another tip for shooting range enthusiasts,try turning your paper targets around so the white side is facing you.It allows you to see your shot groups better.[/quote]

Are you sure that’s right? If the three points of the triangle are the chin and the ends of your collar bones, you’re pretty much just shooting the guy in the neck or the traps, not the upper chest.

78

[quote]tom63 wrote:
taylorsj wrote:
I’ll take a .45ACP hollow point round that generates hundreds of pounds per square inch of force on contact, but only penetrates 5 inches into the attacker over a 9mm hollow point that generates less force on contact and is so fast that it passes through the attacker.

the only round i know of with that little penetration is the glaser safety slug, and there can be problems with the round in cold weather with certain clothing.

Any 9mm, 40, 45 round will do the job just fine with accurate shooting and a hollowpoint that works well. The 9mm corbon 115 gr +p+ load works great. So does the 135 gr 40 caliber load. Both approximate the energy of the 357 125 gr load that was considered at one time to be top dog at stopping with one shot.

All you need to do is look at the bullet weight and speed. Once you see the foot pounds of energy (power)pick the highest that you can shoot well, regardless of caliber. Some 9mm will hit harder than some 45s and so on.

What you need to figure is, can you hit what you are shooting with it? Does the bullet perform as stated, ie opens up well?
Does it feed in your gun?

If all this is okay, buy the best round you can afford. Personally, I’m a big Cor Bon fan.

[/quote]

Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. It’s more likely that a .45ACP hollowpoint will reach full expansion, hit something inside the attacker, bounce around, and come to rest somewhere within the attacker’s body than a 9mm hollowpoint because the 9mm has a much higher velocity and a lower weight which will increase the odds of the round passing completely through the target before full expansion or fragmenting.

79

[quote]taylorsj wrote:
tom63 wrote:
taylorsj wrote:
I’ll take a .45ACP hollow point round that generates hundreds of pounds per square inch of force on contact, but only penetrates 5 inches into the attacker over a 9mm hollow point that generates less force on contact and is so fast that it passes through the attacker.

the only round i know of with that little penetration is the glaser safety slug, and there can be problems with the round in cold weather with certain clothing.

Any 9mm, 40, 45 round will do the job just fine with accurate shooting and a hollowpoint that works well. The 9mm corbon 115 gr +p+ load works great. So does the 135 gr 40 caliber load. Both approximate the energy of the 357 125 gr load that was considered at one time to be top dog at stopping with one shot.

All you need to do is look at the bullet weight and speed. Once you see the foot pounds of energy (power)pick the highest that you can shoot well, regardless of caliber. Some 9mm will hit harder than some 45s and so on.

What you need to figure is, can you hit what you are shooting with it? Does the bullet perform as stated, ie opens up well?
Does it feed in your gun?

If all this is okay, buy the best round you can afford. Personally, I’m a big Cor Bon fan.

Sorry, that was poorly worded on my part. It’s more likely that a .45ACP hollowpoint will reach full expansion, hit something inside the attacker, bounce around, and come to rest somewhere within the attacker’s body than a 9mm hollowpoint because the 9mm has a much higher velocity and a lower weight which will increase the odds of the round passing completely through the target before full expansion or fragmenting.[/quote]

It all depends on how the hollow point expands, whether it’s a 9 or 45. You need to check out the book Evan Marshall, Stopping Power. It goes into all the penetration stuff etc.

Form what I recall, and I could be wrong, 45 hardball and 9mm hardball both over penetrate. As for the hollow point penetration, it all depends on the weight, velocity, and expansion.

80

I just got back from the range…Rented a 1911, Para something. It was in rough shape, but wow, what a gun. Surprised at the minimal amount of recoil it had compared to the glock .45 I shot a few weeks back. Nice gun for sure. I know understand why so many people are loyal to shooting the 1911.

81

You sound very mixed up. If you want a target pistol/learning pistol get a good used deal on a 22 or whatever pops up.

If you’re going with home defense, why the hell get a pistol? Maverick has the 88 security 8-shot 12 gauge, and Hi-Point has the 9mm 995 Carbine, both of which get plenty of good reviews and have great warranties. You could also get an SKS (watch for overpenetration though) or even Mosin Nagant if you want a powerful reliable rifle.

All options listed are $80-$200.

Now, if you decide you want a carry pistol for <$300, it can be done. Look for a good deal used on a CZ-75, an EAA Witness…or get a used revolver, police tradein, etc.

The Hi Point $140 pistol is actually a decent gun say most reliable reviewers. Could be a decent first gun if you want to target shoot a pistol. Review: http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=928

A Smith & Wesson 442/642 is the perennial choice for a combat revolver that can be concealed. You can’t go wrong with Glock, Springfield XD, or Walther P99 either. It’s a lot of preference really.

I too am on a budget, and want to pack but don’t have a lot of money. I want to test one out, but I have heard mostly good stuff about newer generation Smith & Wesson SW9VE Sigmas, a Glock lookalike that is about half the price. Check it out…$300ish.

Lots of people will give blanket advice, but like lifting, you gotta decide for yourself. Likewise, you will need to LEARN what to do, and a pistol is not a magic wand.

The truth is that everyone feels a need to defend themselves if the need arises, and you could kill yourself if you try to defend with a pistol or gun that you don’t know how to operate. Don’t be a cowboy. Learn to use it, and remember it’s a tool. Make it your strength, not your liability. If you have a firearm, and the need arises to use it, you NEED to be prepared…otherwise you are better off without one.

A great book that will introduce you to the legal side of weapons: Massad Ayoob’s In the Gravest Extreme. Get a used copy on http://www.abe.com/ - it is a great alternative to all the bullshit macho books and videos and forums that try to feed your Hollywood fantasies.

Personally, my econo-lineup will be this:

Hi Point 9mm 995 Carbine (already got it, great gun)
M1 Carbine (SHTF/scout gun, reliable and versatile)
Maverick 88 12 gauge (won’t get it for a while)
S&W Sigma 9VE (carry gun. can’t have on campus unfortunately, so almost more a “car” pistol…will prob get it Q1 2008)

Good luck.

82

Also considering EAA Witness, CZ-75, CZ-100, Kel-tec PF9 or P11…

83

The only time I’d recommend a cut-rate firearm is when starting out or when you have no other choice.

I got my 12 year old a Beretta Zeos .22LR for that very reason. She’s learning the basics so I wouldn’t expect her to handle a bigger, more expensive firearm yet. Beyond being easy for her to control and shoot it’s simple to break down and clean. Only when she has those tasks down cold with her weapon will she move up the ladder.

Everyone who has responded has their own opinion on the matter and I’m no different. Here’s a partial list and what they’re used for. They all fit my particular needs and there are others that could fill any of those roles just as well.

Home Defense
Rem 870 12ga pump shotgun w/slug barrel and 00 buckshot (no plug)

Home Defense for the wife
Rem 870 20ga pump shotgun w/slug barrel 3 rounds of #2 buckshot followed by two slugs (no plug)

Target range
Beretta 87 Target - .22LR

Primary carry
Beretta 92FS Inox - .40 cal

Secondary carry
Glock G27 - .40 cal
All carry weapons will have matching caliber regardless of what manufacturer/model.

Regarding the Desert Warrior, it’s a fantastic sidearm but if you really want to enjoy your 1911 experience take a look at the Team Match.