Dr Darden,
Since I meet a lot of different people in various states, situations and ages at work - and regularly recommend various excercise regimen:
I was wondering if there is any particular situation/circumstance where you would recommend any other (of your) strategies than 30-10-30? Have you encountered such a situation under your own observation? Is ever 30-30-30 or “normal” cadences preferable?
This question imply healthy individuals able to train.
With my long-term trainees, I alternate normal style with many of my other techniques. I do not apply 30-10-30 exclusively, but I do use it often.
I am where I am craving to change my training.
If you want a response like a newbie, you know, the minute you try another training method, and you can just see, feel, and taste improvement…Change it up. Change it drastically.
30-10-30 and then doing 20-6-20 for instance, won’t get it.
My next phase I have decided on doing cluster sets. 3 reps every minute on the minute, 1sec pos, 4 sec neg, with a max of 5 sets per cluster.
horizontal pull, horizontal push, hamstring dominant, then repeat for another “cycle”
at the end of the second cycle of each cycle, a long slow eccentric of at least 10 to 15 seconds.
Maybe some assistance work, or accessory work. but not too much. I wanna be in and out in 40 minutes
I want to jump my strength for the next 30-10-30 cycle.
That is just me though.
Take home that I understand is to make the next program as dissimilar as possible so there is little attenuation of the growth dose
Thanks jp,
I am personally at a similar stage as you describe, where I temporarily halted 30-10-30 and opted for a surprise regimen. Currently trying Johnston’s Zone training approach - likely for a month - before heading back to safe ground with Darden recipy again. Feels different indeed, but something is actually happening.
Or, maybe I just go for a complete unplanned regimen, where I vary every technique applicable, and design my full body routines on the spot before workout - with great variation? After all, I did my best gains in life shifting separate workouts inbetween Darden normal, 30-30-30 and 30-10-30.
Tried cluster sets on the bench press a year ago. My strength went uphill for sure. Another great technique.
Re my training advice to clients, I have recommended 30-10-30 (the “Killing fat” book) to two motivated middleaged trainees on hiatus (for combined weightloss and muscularity). I believe science is backing up this method.
I’ve posted here as a strong advocate for 30-10-30, as it is an extremely effective protocol. But, and I’m coming to see this about ALL protocols, you reach a point of diminishing returns sooner than you might expect (about 1 month for me). After which progress dramatically slows and risk of overuse injuries increase (I’m 49- tendonitis, etc.). I’ve rotated back to a traditional protocol, and think I’ll continue that back and forth rotation each month, so using 30-10-30 every other month.
That would work. But you could also alternate a 30-10-30 exercise with a traditional one for the workout. There are many ways to keep the sessions interesting and productive.
Yes, I agree. It’s just a personality issue with me. I seem to either need to do intense sessions or volume/bland. When I mix, I find I end up both not as intense and even more bored with volume/straight sets.
Yesterday, did 30-10-30 on push-ups and then on pull-ups, while wearing bfr cuffs. Did all on push-ups, only 2 of 10 on the pull-ups. But my arms looked 2 inches bigger even an hour later. 30-10-30 is addicting.
=== Scott==
Can you be more specific on the diminishing returns ? Do you get to a point where you can’t increase reps or weight at all or does progress just get slower ? I’ve been doing my version of 30 10 30 now for about 3 months and it seems like most of the time I can increase at least one or two reps every workout or at least every other workout. For me that seems pretty good but maybe you are used to better gains?
I started this week doing 30-10-30 on mondays, 10-30 on Wednesdays and pre-exhaustion on fridays
Scott…how often are you doing 30-10-30…curious as what your version is
You raise a good point, thinking about it, when I first started 30-10-30, I did have increasing gains/progress for a few months as opposed to just one. That being said, and again this is just my experience, I stalled and had some tendonitis flair-up. I went to reverse pyramid, 3 sets, reps were 4,6,8 (ex. trap bar DL) or 6,8,10 (ex.floor press) or 8,10, 12 (ex.squat), depending on exercise. Made solid gains for about a month, then couldn’t add much to the weights/stalled/started hurting, so went back to 30-10-30 for about 3 weeks. Again, quick progress then stall, so rotated to volume/straight sets (essentially 5 X 10), made good progress but fatigue built up and the amount of time necessary was getting inconvenient, so now back to 30-10-30. Here’s the thing, my strength and size stayed/grew regardless of the program. I never went backwards. I’m 49 and beat-up from contact sports. The key for me is making progress without risking injury. I find myself risking injury after about a month of any protocol. So forcing myself to rotate slightly BEFORE my gains slow/level seems to be the key for me. Also, the one variable that I don’t change is 3-4 times per week/full body. That’s time driven mostly, but I also think it’s the most bang for the buck. I think as I’ve gotten older I atrophy quicker, so I need at least 3 per week.
Hi dhudson,
3-4 times a week, full body, on 30-10-30? In that case I would not be surprised to experience injuries on this protocol (overtraining). But, each to his own, and you do seem to have cracked the code on your personal regime intervals!
That being said, I could not tolerate 30-10-30 (only) to failure, full body twice a week, for more than 6 weeks before I felt overtrained and had to make alterations to the routine. The inroad is as great. But, the NTF and 10-30 modernization brings another flavor to it, that may make it possible to train more often.
3 times a week 30-10-30 does work well for me. I do zercher squats, push-ups, pull-ups; sometimes add - curls, triceps or shoulder press, depending on how I’m feeling. Instead of adding much weight, I use BFR cuffs. I think it lowers the neural stress, so maybe that’s why 3 per week is sustainable.
I do a push- pull routine. Day one push , day two off, day 3 pull, day 4 off , day 5 push, day 6 off, day 7 pull, day 8 off , ditto ditto.
On my pull day : all one set of 30 10 30 around 30 seconds between machines.
Pullover
Rowing torso
Seated row
BNTA maybe
Compound bi curls
Rev curls
On push day:
Double chest press
Lateral machine
Standing but leaning forward lateral raise
Sometimes I do 20 or so reps of these
See end for explanation
Tricep extension Nautilus
Tricep pushdown on pull down machine
Legs I do some body weight squats and easy Nautilus leg ext on off days plus some exercise bike cardio, my legs were always ahead of my upper body so I don’t want and more size there.
I read some where that delts are mostly slow twitch fiber and need to be trained with higher reps for hypertrophy See basketball players delts!! I drink water and cranberry juice mixture during workouts.
Scott
I see now how you can be increasing reps or weight, you are only working each muscle 2x and sometimes once week vs 3x a week
Thanks
== Scott==
To be honest I never paid any attention to how many times a week I was training each muscle, I just know I wanted to do those exercises and doing them all on the same day was too long a workout so I split it to push- pull with a day of rest between each muscle. I did this same routine before 30 10 30 but it was always to failure and I did not make as good of progress as I made with 30 10 30 . This was the only way for me to tell if in fact the 30 10 30 was the difference or some other factor.
Makes sense
How often do use BFR? Which cuffs? How long do you keep them on? Thanks>
B Strong. I rotate on these as well (month on/month off), but when on, as often as convenient, but try to have at least one workout per week without them where I use heavier weights. No more than 20 mins total time with cuffs on. Key is you really need to keep the weights reduced. They work but I do think you get to diminishing returns after 3-4 weeks, at which point I suggest rotating. Also, follow all the safety instructions and stay hydrated.
I’d tighten those rest periods up, to make clusters more effective. 3 reps, followed by 3 moderately deep breaths* — in through the nose, out through the mouth. You won’t get the Cluster Pump with 45-sec rests!
(*No Stopwatch Needed!!)