When to Bulk/Cut

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Shotgun wrote:

I agree. We are bodybuilders. We should be big and cut as often as possible.
…

I don’t think anyone is promoting becoming a fat ass. That pic in my avatar is about the heaviest I get…and no, my abs were not visible which is one reason the tank top is on. I seriously doubt many are seeing enough growth by being overly worried about remaining extremely lean to match that of those who simply work on size for a LONG TIME…get to a point where they feel they have enough size and then diet down. I am in the process of dieting now. This is the first time I am even attempting to get leaner than usual and that is only because I feel I have the size to justify it. That isn’t saying that I think everyone should try to weigh as much as I do. I also know there are many who are way bigger than I am. However, if you are skinny, do not expect to put on a great deal of size by dieting every few weeks. If you begin to gain too much body fat, it is at that point that you clean your diet up more…not jump on a strict diet every single time and drop weight. That will only lead to running in circles in most cases.[/quote]

But why would you have to bulk forever?? I don’t understand what more it would give you.

And I’m sorry those who do that are definitely not running in circles.
It really works.

Since I’ve been doing that I’ve gained about 6-7lbs with no fat.

42

[quote]mike08042 wrote:
I have to say I totally agree with prof.x and phill. These guys know what they are talking about! I learned a great deal from here and insist on getting huge. I am currently bulking to become an insane specimen, I am currently 6’6 255 and am looking to get to 275 or more, I am planning on doing a few cycles of bulking and cutting to achieve SIZE and muscle. I will keep doing so until I am satisfied, that could be a long time though!, I already gained 25lbs in the past 8 weeks through heavy training getting alot of protein and good foods and by use of creatine as well, it seems to be getting harder to gain now but I am hoping to be 275lbs by Jan 5th, it seems like a long shot but I aint gonna give up. GET BIG OR DIE TRYING! Too many womenly men ruin this board, ie those 150lb lightweights who wana get toned, just so they can get the girl, and no other reason, thats just plain sad and for all of you that are like this get a damn life, go and model some freakin CK underwear. (I hate metrosexuals)[/quote]

Nobody gives a shit that you’re 255 or I don’t know what…

43

Isn’t what we’re talking about mere aesthetics? Maybe someone wants to be 6’0" and 170lbs lean. Is it your place to pass judgement? This is like arguing over an artist’s vision. Two artists can have equally great creative minds yet have radically different perceptions of what the ideal human body is. Neither is right, and neither is wrong. They are simply two swathes of imagery, conjured from different minds and different brushes.

44

mike08042, Professor X, and phill, those are some great posts.

Long live the hardcore.

45

[quote]zdrax wrote:
Isn’t what we’re talking about mere aesthetics? Maybe someone wants to be 6’0" and 170lbs lean. Is it your place to pass judgement? This is like arguing over an artist’s vision. Two artists can have equally great creative minds yet have radically different perceptions of what the ideal human body is. Neither is right, and neither is wrong. They are simply two swathes of imagery, conjured from different minds and different brushes. [/quote]

That was downright beautiful…however, why would someone train to weigh 170lbs at 6 feet tall? Do you honestly believe that it makes sense for someone to be in the gym daily…eating several times a day…logging into this site on a regular basis…all to look like they don’t lift? Weighing 170lbs at that height doesn’t take artistic brush strokes or deeper looks into imagery and Monet related projections on a canvas. Most people can reach that without doing anything. Nothing. Not even using a paint brush. Why not log into a Men’s Health forum? Do some of you even lift those heavy weights in the gym? The really heavy ones that make you sweat and, God forbid, grunt a little? Just wondering. I don’t understand the audience in this forum anymore. There used to be a much rougher base than those who would prefer to paint their way to a new physique.

46

[quote]mike08042 wrote:
I have to say I totally agree with prof.x and phill. These guys know what they are talking about! I learned a great deal from here and insist on getting huge. I am currently bulking to become an insane specimen, I am currently 6’6 255 and am looking to get to 275 or more, I am planning on doing a few cycles of bulking and cutting to achieve SIZE and muscle. I will keep doing so until I am satisfied, that could be a long time though!, I already gained 25lbs in the past 8 weeks through heavy training getting alot of protein and good foods and by use of creatine as well, it seems to be getting harder to gain now but I am hoping to be 275lbs by Jan 5th, it seems like a long shot but I aint gonna give up. GET BIG OR DIE TRYING! Too many womenly men ruin this board, ie those 150lb lightweights who wana get toned, just so they can get the girl, and no other reason, thats just plain sad and for all of you that are like this get a damn life, go and model some freakin CK underwear. (I hate metrosexuals)[/quote]

Everyone has a different goal, and I think you should resepect those who don’t want to be 300lbs. In my opinion putting on that much weight is not healthy and i’d rather be lean and fit, but that doesn’t make me an underwear model or a metrosexual.

47

[quote]Professor X wrote:
zdrax wrote:
Isn’t what we’re talking about mere aesthetics? Maybe someone wants to be 6’0" and 170lbs lean. Is it your place to pass judgement? This is like arguing over an artist’s vision. Two artists can have equally great creative minds yet have radically different perceptions of what the ideal human body is. Neither is right, and neither is wrong. They are simply two swathes of imagery, conjured from different minds and different brushes.

That was downright beautiful…however, why would someone train to weigh 170lbs at 6 feet tall? Do you honestly believe that it makes sense for someone to be in the gym daily…eating several times a day…logging into this site on a regular basis…all to look like they don’t lift? Weighing 170lbs at that height doesn’t take artistic brush strokes or deeper looks into imagery and Monet related projections on a canvas. Most people can reach that without doing anything. Nothing. Not even using a paint brush. Why not log into a Men’s Health forum? Do some of you even lift those heavy weights in the gym? The really heavy ones that make you sweat and, God forbid, grunt a little? Just wondering. I don’t understand the audience in this forum anymore. There used to be a much rougher base than those who would prefer to paint their way to a new physique.
[/quote]

I don’t know who you say that for man… I can tell you something, nobody trains harder than me… I’ve never seen anyone in 8 years put as much intensity in their training as me. Clear?

Have you ever done HIIT on a keto, followed by a full body workout with 4 sets to failure per muscle, including 2 supersets of breathing squats pre-exhausted with leg extensions to failure?

If you can do that you can criticise others, otherwise stop bullshitting people you don’t know…

48

That work our looks hard and I’m sure it’s intense but so is Lance Armstrongs work out. I don’t think anyone wants to look like that. Your intensity may be what is keeping you from putting on the muscle you deserve. Yours is one hell of a work ethic. It just sounds like you are doing to much in one work out unless you have some serious anabolic recovery agents on your side.
I guess what I am saying is that is that intensity is not what some are lacking. What is hurting there progress is that the attack two (or more) goals at one time with all of that intensity. If they could focus it on to one goal they would see results that most do not.

49

I think this argument would make for a good round-table discussion - you know - the kind that Shugs likes to do.

I’d really like to hear a discussion from actual experts on this - not the self-proclaimed ones.

50

[quote]Shotgun wrote:

I don’t know who you say that for man… I can tell you something, nobody trains harder than me… I’ve never seen anyone in 8 years put as much intensity in their training as me. Clear?

Have you ever done HIIT on a keto, followed by a full body workout with 4 sets to failure per muscle, including 2 supersets of breathing squats pre-exhausted with leg extensions to failure?

If you can do that you can criticise others, otherwise stop bullshitting people you don’t know…[/quote]

I didn’t quote you, therefore, I was not talking to you. The fact that I also didn’t mention your name should have been an even larger clue.

As far as your training, what are your stats and how old are you?

51

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think this argument would make for a good round-table discussion - you know - the kind that Shugs likes to do.

I’d really like to hear a discussion from actual experts on this - not the self-proclaimed ones.

[/quote]

Great idea. So what do you think Shugs? Can it be done?

52

Roundtable discussion on this subject would be very interesting!..Meanwhile I haven’t seen what seems to be an obvious question asked thus far. That is what is considered an optimal weight when it comes to gaining weight in the form of muscle mass.

We have some standards when it comes to weight in regular people like BMI, etc, but there’s always a fine print saying that if you’re an active sportsman then your weight could be higher and you still would be considered healthy, but they never give any guidelines for those kinds of people.

So, the question is. When it comes to gaining how does one decide when is to stop? Is there any kind of a standard?

53

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think this argument would make for a good round-table discussion

[/quote]

I agree.

54

I think the issue lies more in trying to pull your body in two directions and expecting optimal growth in lean body mass and not the focus on body weight…aside from the fact that many seem to suddenly have this weird fear of actualy looking like they lift seriously. BMI has no significant place in bodybuilding. Anyone above average in lean body mass will read as near obese or greater if you go strictly by BMI. Beyond that, I think it is an issue that weighing less than the average healthy weight for your height seems to actually be a goal for some people, along with the fact that some extremely skinny guys on this forum actually see themselves as needing to lose more weight. Whether that is a result of “former fat boy syndrome” or some larger issue, I think it is wrong to ignore it or not identify it as a possible problem.

55

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Whether that is a result of “former fat boy syndrome” or some larger issue, I think it is wrong to ignore it or not identify it as a possible problem.
[/quote]

I can tell you from my personal experience that it was definitely a problem for me to pull all the stops and start gaining weight again. I wouldn’t call myself a typical fat boy, but about 1.5 years ago, at one point I was 215lbs and I wasn’t lifting much then. On that picture of mine that you saw I was 149lbs (I lost over 65lbs in about 7 month). As I have already mentioned, since that picture was taken I’ve gained 20lbs and currently bulking.

But let me tell you this. There’s no question that I had an issue to start bulking. This might sound strange, but I swear that when I finally decided to try to gain a little and started eating a little more I would check my weight on the scale, but in my mind I was wishing for that scale not to show a gain in weight. Now I’m totally over it and have pulled all the stops and trying to gain, gain, gain, but clearly I had a problem in the beginning.

56

I would agree that trying to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time is not the peak of efficiency. But IMHO, neither is gaining fat and gaining muscle at the same time.

My roundtable question would be -

Do you have to gain fat in order to bulk effectively?

or

What is the most efficient way to gain muscle mass?

57

This is what Berardi wrote back in an old Appetite of Construction column (2/22/02) of his:

Too Fat to go on a Mass Phase?

Q. You’ve written before that going on a mass phase isn’t a good idea for a person who isn’t already lean because this leads to rapid fat gain. So how lean should a person be before cranking up the calories?

A. Based on empirical results (what I’ve seen in the gym) and the research I’ve discussed in a previous column, it’s clear that one of the biggest determinants of your muscle loss to fat loss ratio (when dieting) and your muscle gain to fat gain ratio (when bulking up) is your initial level of body fatness. Generally, the amount of body fat that you have (percentage and total pounds of fat) will be a major determinant of how your body responds to over-eating or under-eating. Stated another way, if you’re fat, you shouldn’t try to bulk up because you’ll gain mostly fat. But how much body fat puts you into the “too fat to bulk” category?

As I pointed out in one of my previous columns, subjects who started overfeeding with 22 lbs of fat on their bodies gained 70% of their weight as lean body mass and 30% of their weight as fat mass (To put this into perspective, your stats would have to be something like 150lb at 15% or 200lb at 11%).

However, double those body-fat numbers (150lb at 30% or 200lb at 22%), and the ratio flops in the opposite direction (30% lean body mass gain and 70% fat gain). With these data, it doesn’t take too much of a leap to deduce that the 50-50 point would be around 33 lbs of fat (150lb at 22% fat; 200lb at 17%).

Now that you have these numbers, it’s your turn to decide what’s too fat to bulk. Ideally a 100% lean body mass gain is what we’re all shooting for. But that isn’t very realistic. In my opinion, a 70% lean to 30% fat gain is as far as I’m willing to go. And this fits right in line with my stats as I normally fluctuate between 5% fat and 12% fat throughout the year.

Therefore, I’ll begin an overfeeding phase at 5% and bulk up to 10-12% fat. At this point, I begin to dislike how my physique looks. Conveniently, according to the data, the lean gain to fat gain ratio begins to decrease and more fat would be accumulating should I continue to overfeed.

But I’m partially lucky as I was blessed with decent “leanness” genetics. I know people who’ve never seen 5% despite valiant efforts. For them they may need a more liberal standard to follow.

Now that you’re armed with the information, go ahead and decide for yourself what’s “too fat to bulk” based on the projected fat and lean gains derived from your own weight and body fat percentages.

58

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Do you have to gain fat in order to bulk effectively?

or

What is the most efficient way to gain muscle mass?
[/quote]

To that first question, my response is I would have to say yes…if this is in terms of gaining muscle at the fastest rate possible. This is especially beneficial for teenagers who are growing and producing more testosterone and growth hormones than they ever will again in their life times. It is a waste to spend those quality years being overly restrictive with your food intake. Other than that specific time, keeping fat gain minimal is always the goal, but expecting to gain muscle with absolutely no fat gain means you are restrictive in food intake and playing a daily balance game between giving your body just enough to maintain bodily functions and exactly enough to gain. Since muscle gains are not linear (ie. you don’t gain exactly 1lb of muscle over a certain time because genetics, training, nutrition and multiple other variables effect it to the point that there are leaps and lulls in growth), you could easily be choosing to give your body less at the exact time that it needs more.

Personally, I have no doubt that I would be carrying much less lean body mass had I attempted to restrict my intake to that degree. For those who don’t mind growing much slower (or in some cases, not at all), this may not be a problem. My opinion is I don’t see the point in taking 5-10 years what can take 2 years if you simply spent some time gaining without being overly restrictive. Tha goal is always more muscle than fat gain. But then, that shouldn’t even need to be said.