I specifically stated I would provide poll results of what I’m seeing in my group. DID I?? Yes, I did. Did I ever say it was anything else other than that?? No, I did not.
@systemlord. You try to act smart but you’ve got the IQ of tap water.
You still haven’t provided any evidence and this is at least the tenth time I’ve asked with still nothing from your end.
You’re still replying. @systemlord if you don’t provide some evidence in this next reply so help me god…
I had something really snarky to post, then thought better of it.
I was basically saying the same thing and yet you disagree with me. What the FK?!
I’ve clarified this how many times now??
Go up and re-read everything I’ve written.
I have provided SOMETHING. You have provided NOTHING.
Provide something or shut the FK up.
The guys aren’t “bodybuilders” in the sense that you are referencing. They have their own ideas and are not open to suggestions.
Edit: autocorrect typo
You get mad whenever someone makes compelling argument, there is usually cursing involved and shows you agreeing with another poster while disagreeing with someone else making the same argument.
How funny is that, laughing!
Why don’t you go look at the poll yourself over on Excelmale, there are many, cherry pick one you like best.
I get mad when I ask for evidence 20 times from an idiot who keeps deflecting and continues to provide none, as in this case.
How funny is that, laughing!
What were the final numbers for your ‘symptom free’ poll?
Honestly when it comes to reference ranges for testosterone I think there is a whole lot that we simply don’t know. The range is so wide as to be almost meaningless. You can’t tell me that if I was at 916 ng/dL when I was 20 and now I’m at 264 ng/dL that that is perfectly normal and nothing to be concerned about but that is exactly what much of the medical establishment seems to be saying. Is there a correlation between T-levels and other attributes? Are those with naturally higher levels more muscular or have more assertive personalities? Is there a genetic component? Do identical twins have similar T-levels? Are there environmental factors affecting T-levels? I recall reading somewhere that men in relationships who have children see a drop in T-levels which might be nature’s way of making sure you stick around to ensure the survivability of your offspring rather than getting killed in a battle or running off to sow more of your seed. Who knows? This is why I prefer going by symptoms rather than the official range. But then which symptoms are we trying to fix? Are we talking about the ones that tend to come along with being a gentleman of a certain age or are we just complaining about not being a teenager anymore?
To be completely honest, although I’ve heard lots of claims about men today having lower T-levels than 50 years ago, I have not seen any documented evidence of that. If you know of any I really would like to see it.
0-14 3 men
15-29 36 men
30-39 24 men
40-49 8 men
50-59 5 men
60+ 23 men
99 men responded. 39% had symptom resolution with free T under 30 and 61% had symptom resolution with free T over 30.
If you look through @johann77 's post he’s posted a study or two that show the levels are consistent, though the “standard” they use to measure T has been revised so it makes all the numbers lower. I believe it was a 20 year comparison, not 50, but don’t quote me on that. The point being, it helps explain at least some of the change.
I wouldn’t be surprised if levels have gone down SOME, but that doesn’t appear to be the whole reason for the change in T ranges on lab reports. At least to my understanding, which is certainly much less than his.
I know this might sound stupid to many of you but… google photos from the 1950’s. Where is all the obesity, diabetes, CVD, etc. etc.? Do you think they had the tanked T levels that men have these days?
I’m willing to bet: no.
Diets, agriculture, everything we put into our bodies was different back then. Portion sizes were way different, etc. It’s not only T to blame for the difference. Is it some of it? Probably.
And what do you think all those things you just listed have done to our T levels?
I spoke to my dad about this once. He’s 73. He said he didn’t have any obese friends. It wasn’t really common place back then. He and his friends used to eat like wild animals and they would never get fat. They were all active… all extremely manly. Not what you see today by any stretch of the imagination.
I posted this in another thread recently. This is my take on the subject.
People was dying from diabetes. They never knew.
You can die from diabetes being really thin.
Diabetes was not common place in the 50’s. Not like it is now.
