Honestly I have little doubt that the vast majority of guys on TRT are not in some forum. MOST guys don’t even go to the gym. Most of those who do are walking on treadmills and doing light work on machines, not pumping iron. If they had low-T symptoms, they went to their doctor, got their prescription, their symptoms abated and they are doing just fine. Hell I’m only here because I’m curious how this stuff works and what can be done to achieve optimal results, not just symptom relief. If I can be 20 again I’m going for it but I seriously doubt that describes most guys. And I find the gel works just fine. The instructions that come with it say that 50 mg/day will provide an average of about 525 ng/dL and I came in at 515 & 519 ng/dL when I tested so it was pretty damned accurate. I had the doc boost the dose up to 75 mg because I was still having trouble achieving organisms and that fixed it. No more symptoms. I expect that will put me around 600-620 ng/dL. I’ll know in a week or so. The paperwork says 100 mg/day will provide an average of around 725 ng/dL which is where I’d like to be so I’m going to see if the doc will bump my dose up again. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. But again, I really don’t think most guys worry about that. If their doc gave them 50 mg/day gel and their symptoms resolved, why would they be here?
Probably 75-100, or up to 20%. Some of those using TRT for fitness, appearance, etc. (bodybuilding types) are much more likely to use AIs because they want the dried out look. Others use TRT clinics in which it is standard protocol.
Many of the bodybuilders I know personally are either stopping or have stopped a long time ago. John Meadows and Greg Doucette (who I’m sure you’ve heard of and I both know personally) do not take an AI. They’ve also told me that many of the guys they deal with don’t either.
The reference ranges, 264-916 ng/dL which is the same as the previous 348-1198 ng/dL, the former is done with more accuracy.
I don’t know that, you are only going off what someone else is saying without verifying it for yourself.
I’m not saying that there aren’t those who need 30+ ng/dL to relieve symptoms, just that Danny likes to exaggerate and make it sound like these cases are typical and speaks in absolutes. So whenever he says something I have to scrutinize it, if I see a statement with an absolute, I give his statement less credibility.
He is trying to pass this poll results as typical cases, less than 100 men don’t represent even a small portion of men on TRT, it’s a raindrop in a ocean. I could create a poll on Excelmale and get different results that contradict this poll.
@systemlord you’re a moron. An absolute dumbass.
Provide YOUR DAMN EVIDENCE for things you speak of. I was at least able to provide SOMETHING. Can you??
The ranges are dropping every year. How are you doing in that range? Post of photo to demonstrate your overall health to all of us since you know what you’re doing.
Show everyone who @systemlord is. Where they are getting their advice from.
Demonstrate SOME EVIDENCE of ANYTHING instead of the nonsense you continue to spew.
We always say that each lab has it’s own reference values even when we are talking about specific measurement units (I will never understand this; for me it’s basically they measurement is a shit and have to add a correction factor).
In my case, my last lab came with 36,45 pg/mL (4.5 - 42) free testosterone which might sound great, but calculating my free test % using total + shbg + albumin, I get 1,8% when the normal range is between 2 and 4%.
So my lab says using their CLIA method that I am near the top of the range of the free testosterone, but Free & Bioavailable Testosterone calculator says that I am below the normal range.
Sincere Question : why do you make the poll using free testosterone results instead of calculated free testosterone %?. Are we sure everyone participating there has a reliable free testosterone analysis result?.
Would we get a similar chart if we ask for calculated free testosterone %? Is it worth a try?
Your free T of 36.45 was most likely ng/dL and not pg/mL.
To answer your question, perhaps. The problem is that most of the guys are getting free T labs done instead of calculated so we wouldn’t have enough guys with the required information to answer the poll.
The reference ranges didn’t drop, the result of changing the accuracy of testing method did, this was explained to you in detail providing literature and still you didn’t get anything out of it. I read it, understood it, why don’t you?
The previous reference ranges 348-1198 testing was less accurate, the testing method was improved upon and now the same labs plugged into the newer method reflects the newer refined reference ranges, 348 is 264 ng/dL, 1198 is 916 ng/dL.
Testing for Free T is not worth the paper it’s printed on, Free T measurements are so inaccurate that most doctors fixate on the Total T which is way more reliable. I see men having symptoms at 15 pg/mL whether they are on TRT or not, this lends to the credibility of Free T being inaccurate or at least unknown at which point symptoms start to develop.
@systemlord are you really going to say that the range of testosterone levels are the same now than they were 50 years ago? Are you REALLY going to say that?
I think it’s about time that I make a systemlord video. I’ll compile the worst of the worst of bro science statements, and demolish them one at a time. I’ve had more requests for ‘bro science’ videos and I don’t think I could do anything better than quotes from systemlord.
He’s gonna be famous 
That’s not what I’m saying, I’m saying the testing methods changed and provided a more accurate reference range. There is no doubt testosterone levels have been declining for some time now.
You passing on your little poll and typical cases, not so fast!
@systemlord as they will continue to. It’s exponential harm now and it’s only going to get worse. So as long as you want to stick to some bullshit range, knock yourself out. The rest of us without symptoms have figured this out awhile ago.
Show me your evidence of typical cases of non-symptomatic men.
Then show me evidence of who you are, a photo (no face required) so we can see who is dishing out this advice.
Yeah I landed in the exact same range for FT with 15mg dailies (105mg week) - felt terrible even after 8 weeks. Now doing 22mg (154mg week) and so far seems promising. The first two weeks I felt complete depression and lethargy – now on week 3 – yesterday and the day before I felt back to my normal self, if not better. Today is below average, hoping my body is just syncing up and eventually I’ll feel like yesterday everyday. If that’s the case then I might even bump my dose to 28mg a day (~200mg week).
The bias comes from different angles
- this group of men is not representative of the entire population of men on TRT. You should describe the studied population and disclose that the conclusions are only applicable to this cohort. age? lifters? medical history? supplements such as DHEA etc
- how do you make sure that even within the group of men in your FB group there isn’t a bias in reporting? To control this in such studies men are randomly selected and contacted.
- symptom resolution is not defined, a standardized questionere such as the ADAM Score is needed
- men already know their freeT levels. To limit the placebo effect you would have to turn around the sequence; first ask them if they feel asymptomatic then measure freeT
- how they measured freeT is not defined; measured, calculated? Which formula, Vermeulen, Tru T?
- T levels representat trough, peak, average? Normalization needed
- we don’t know anything about potential side effects these men encounter. High HCT, high blood pressure, negative impact on lipid profile
- no control group to measure the placebo effect
- we don’t know if this is the lowest dose at which they find symptom resolution
- can men vote for two different groups? There is at least one guy appearing in at least two groups
- grouping needs to be changed, eg 5 - 15 (lower part of ref range), 15 to 25 (upper part of ref range), 25 - 35, etc.
I don’t want to come across like a smart ass, merely trying to show the limitations. I am sure the intentions a pure.
Hmm I actually noticed this when I was on 15mg. I felt like my e2 crashed when I wasn’t even taking an AI, or DIM or even eating broccoli. Now I’m on 22mg and I don’t feel joint or back pain anymore.
What was your FT?
@johann77 I completely agree with you on all points here and, no, you are not coming across as a smart ass (well, you’re a smart ass… more smart and less ass… but whatever lol!)
We could take what you just wrote and then gone into 100 times greater specifics to make the poll 100 times more complicated.
Or… I could just ask the guys and say, “Hey, where are you guys at?” to simply show a tiny shred of evidence to backup what I’m seeing. It by no means represents all men on TRT across the globe.
However, like I keep saying, it’s SOMETHING… even if it is small… versus nothing. Systemlord dismisses everything and touts bro science without every presenting a shred of evidence that everyone can respect. That’s the issue here.
I also bet you that we could do a poll exactly as to the way you describe and if all the non-symptomatic men fell above 30 ng/dL for free T he’d say your poll was designed with bias in mind.
NEWSFLASH: I don’t care what the numbers are. I only want the right answer. If most men are non-symptomatic at 25, great! If it’s 65, great! I do NOT give a shit what the number is. I have no bias. I’m reporting what I’m seeing that seems to be working for zero net gain. If you want to question my credibility please ask yourself what possible reason I’d have to do any of this for zero net gain.
@Johann77 pretty much made the same point in greater detail, we are speaking the same language and are making the same point.
Now your upset even though it was intelligently explain why your results lack clarity because there is no way to remove bias from the reporting, an example your FB group.
I can’t believe we have members that would fall for it so easily, even I can see it’s a FB poll likely within your own FB group. Your credibility just got shot to down.
That’s all this was ever presented as.
Men in his Facebook group who self report that they’re symptom free, what their dose was and took the opportunity to reply to the poll.