If you eat the babies can I have the afterbirth? Mmmm, Placenta.
[quote]SpeedStrength wrote:
etaco wrote:
If it were healthy, tasty and legal, I’d be eating human. I guess that shows how morally bankrupt I am.
I would be hunting them down like animals… especially babies and pregnant women. I’d throw the women to the dogs and eat the fetus they have inside them. I hear spinal fluid is GRRRREAT pre/post workout.[/quote]
[quote]UlaKhan wrote:
Eating vegetables is more terrible than eating animals. At least the animals have some chance to run away.
Oh, and Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian. He couldn’t tollerate the cruelty of killing innocent animals.[/quote]
Actually it was a prescribed diet from his doctor.
[quote]JokerFMJ wrote:
If you eat the babies can I have the afterbirth? Mmmm, Placenta.
[/quote]
Are you not reading my posts?
The only thing worse than a vegan telling everyone how to live their life is a bodybuilder trying to tell everyone how to live their lives.
Strict Vegan = no meat
Strict bodybuilder = no donuts, no beer, no donuts, no late night partying, no beer, no bongs, no beer, no whiskey. Did I mention no beer or donuts?!?!?!?
I don’t care if someone is a vegan or not, as long as they don’t start preaching at me why they are better than me.
[quote]Mattthepug wrote:
Lou Garu wrote:
they’re scared shitless before they’re slaughtered so the adrenaline and fear content is high in their meat too. And then you eat that.
Not realy. Slaughter houses like any business are all about money- scared, panicked wounded animals are harder to control, so they won’t walk through shoots and take longer to get through the process. Scared animals = more problems = more people = more time= less profit. While slaughter houses probably don’t care about animals feelings they sure care about profits.
There is an entire consulting industry based upon making sure that the animals are not scared or hurt during the process so they move through the process quicky and quitel with as little problem as possible.
There is a good discusion of the process in “Thinkin in Pictures” A great book written by an autistic woman who learned to work around autism, get her PHD and have a succesful career as a consultant making sure cattle are calm and uninjured during the process- not for ethical reasons, although she claims to empathize with the cattle, but for purely profit driven reasons.
[/quote]
Matty -
Nice post. However, I wouldn’t agree completely. The cow knows its going to be slaughtered, even if it completely understand it, and you’re going to have that hormonal inbalance in the meat. Lots of people will disagree with me on that, but it’s what I believe.
On a side note, did you know that the United Nations in New York was built on the grounds of a slaughterhouse? Coincidence? Or was the intention to construct that building on a land that was soiled with blood, fear, death, etc?
[quote]Lou Garu wrote:
Lou Garu wrote:
Nice post. However, I wouldn’t agree completely. The cow knows its going to be slaughtered, even if it completely understand it, and you’re going to have that hormonal inbalance in the meat. Lots of people will disagree with me on that, but it’s what I believe.
[/quote]
Uhhhh-huh. Would you care to provide a hormonal blood profile take before, during, after to substantiate your beliefs? or is this something to do with ‘faith’?
[/quote]
On a side note, did you know that the United Nations in New York was built on the grounds of a slaughterhouse? Coincidence? Or was the intention to construct that building on a land that was soiled with blood, fear, death, etc? [/quote]
LMAO. Yes, OF COURSE it was the intentions of the UN to construct their building on a land soiled with blood, fear, and death! Everyone knows the UN is actually a race of ancient demons resurrected to plague the earth with their hellish sin.
Maybe you should stop praying for the answers to world issues to be as simple as an all-encompasing Dan Brownesque conspiracy. Good luck with recovering your sanity homeboy. Peace!
-Sep
[quote]Sepukku wrote:
Humans only feel bad about eating things which most closely resemble humans. Conciousness is such a vague term one could argue that a rock is just as concious as a person, only in a different way.
In ‘reality’(another vague term), what vegans and vegetarians do not like is to eat things with faces. They don’t like the sense of guilt which comes over them when something that is ‘cute’, or can express fear/pain through recognisable expression e.g. visually or audially to which they can relate, is caused to suffer. It is after all, a disconcerting feeling to witness suffering to which one can relate. (obviously)
I agree with free range/free grazing, and dissaprove of lot feeding and cage-chicken farming, for numerous reasons apart from suffering etc.
However, if you examine said concious animals, they will wilfully ‘grow’ so to speak, in certain conditions, in exactly the same way that plants do. In fact, so will humans. This is because ALL Life is ‘designed’ to LIVE and proliferate. So naturally ALL living things will ‘defend’ their ‘right’ to do so, while simultaneously seizing any opportunity to do so. In fact, to some extent, even inorganic substances/structures do so, for if they did not, they would not exist. I know that is probably quite poorly communicated and oversimplified, but I’m sure you understand what I mean. Basically, what I’m getting at is that nothing has more of a ‘right’ to be than anything else.
Having said that, I do believe that as the beings whom, collectively, have the greatest impact on other beings, while also having the capabilities of moderating our impact, we should indeed pursue certain moral standards which appeal to moderation, harmony, and respect. This would, of course, include the avoidance of causing suffering where possible.
So, morally speaking, I do not believe that vegans and vegetarians are ‘better’. The only thing that makes sense about not eating meat is that it is far more energy efficient to eat autotrophic producers who are the most efficient in making use of the sun’s energy, as opposed to eating primary or secondary consumers. For example, with the amount of grain it takes to feed one cow you could feed twenty times as many people as the cow will eventually feed. Where morality goes from there is a whole 'nother extensive debate.
-Sep [/quote]
Excellent response. You’ve come the closest to hitting the nail on the head.
Humans are very biased and sympathetic towards organisms that are similar to them. We judge the ability to feel pain, etc on how we feel pain. Plants do communicate, they just do it differently. They also locomote, adapt to their environment and protect their offspring. They can be deceitful, selfish and enticing.
If you think we have not evolved to eat meat, run your tongue across your teeth. We have teeth of an omnivore. The reason why our brains are so developed is because our ancestors began adding meat to their diet. And by the way, chimpanzees do eat meat, they actually eat monkeys and other small animals.
We know that although chimpanzees have been recorded to eat more than 35 types of vertebrate animals (Uehara 1997), the most important vertebrate prey species in their diet is the red colobus monkey. At Gombe, red colobus account for more than 80% of the prey items eaten.
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html
The other issue that most vegans fail to understand is that the majority of the meat in our diet comes from animals that have been artificially selected, breeded and hybrized for centuries. There are no daily cattle in the wild. They actually would not survive on their own (I live next door to a dairy farm) and require daily care.
Same with chickens. Why don’t we see any feral chickens? Because they cannot breed and survive in the wild. Pigs are a little more robust and actually it is feral pigs that were brought over to Hawaii in 400AD that are destroying the habitat there. But that is an island with no natural predators for the pigs to contend with.
My point here is that cows and the chickens are like crops. We breed them, we harvest them. We eat them. Now if you want to start wringing your hands about how we treat living things we are going to eat, imagine being pregnant, having your developing young riped from you and eaten while you are still alive. We do it all the time. It’s called gardening and those ovaries are fruits and vegetables.
[quote]Fenris wrote:
On the subject of the distinction between animals and plants, some interesting trivia:
Several studies have been conducted in Europe and the UK that prove that plants feel pain and, when sufficient damage is done to lead to the death of the plant, that they feel fear. They most likely do this in a completely different way than animals, but the stress hormones and chemicals are still released. This makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint: this is how roses developed thorns, and peppers became hot- as an evolutionary reaction to the pain/fear chemicals.[/quote]
Yes, plants have neurotransmitters. Some of them you might have heard of: THC, Lysergic Acid Amines, Psilocybin, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Mescaline
You may note that these occur particularly in plants with a long structure (vines), dormacy capacity (cactii), rapid growth (cannibus) or fungal mycellium networks (psilocybes and ergot).
Also, note that each chemical bonds to receptor sites in the human brain, which typically bond with the endogenous anandamide (cannabis) or serotonin (psychedelics).
So not only do plants think, but they do so with similar chemicals.
I’m sure the thinking and feeling capacity must be differently developed, though, where the organs of such capacity are more basic.
[quote]Cthulhu wrote:
Think about it.Vegans say that we were made to digest plant foods,but without red meat we wouldn’t get vitamin b-12.So that wouldn’t be natural.If we weren’t suppose to eat meat than vitamin b-12 wouldn’t be in meat(one of the most important vitamins).[/quote]
And who knows what nutrients are missing from the vegan diet besides B-12. Science discovers nutrients one by one, with little idea of what might be working beyond what has been observed.
Here is a good website, relevant to this thread:
[quote]Sepukku wrote:
Lou Garu wrote:
Lou Garu wrote:
Nice post. However, I wouldn’t agree completely. The cow knows its going to be slaughtered, even if it completely understand it, and you’re going to have that hormonal inbalance in the meat. Lots of people will disagree with me on that, but it’s what I believe.
Uhhhh-huh. Would you care to provide a hormonal blood profile take before, during, after to substantiate your beliefs? or is this something to do with ‘faith’?
On a side note, did you know that the United Nations in New York was built on the grounds of a slaughterhouse? Coincidence? Or was the intention to construct that building on a land that was soiled with blood, fear, death, etc?
LMAO. Yes, OF COURSE it was the intentions of the UN to construct their building on a land soiled with blood, fear, and death! Everyone knows the UN is actually a race of ancient demons resurrected to plague the earth with their hellish sin.
Maybe you should stop praying for the answers to world issues to be as simple as an all-encompasing Dan Brownesque conspiracy. Good luck with recovering your sanity homeboy. Peace!
-Sep[/quote]
Yeah Sep, it would have something to do with faith. It’s just what I believe. You got yours and I got mine.
And no, I don’t spend my life holed up in a bomb shelter reading about conspiracies and the apocalypse. Don’t you think it’s pretty shallow to peg me as a “conspiracy nutter” from a few words? That’s how a lot of ideas die, b/c they’re just dismissed as conspiracies or bigotry and the world keeps “spinning”.
So many people here think they know somebody from a few sentences, let’s all be straight here, we really know jack shit about each other.
Keep an open mind about all the crazy shit that happens in this world. Somebody is always trying to manipulate you.
Later!
[quote]gojira wrote:
Same with chickens. Why don’t we see any feral chickens?[/quote]
Chickens can survive in the wild. There’s packs of them running through Key West, roosters with a hen or three and some chicks. And that town does tend to get pretty wild, heh.
[quote]gojira wrote:
My point here is that cows and the chickens are like crops. We breed them, we harvest them. We eat them. Now if you want to start wringing your hands about how we treat living things we are going to eat, imagine being pregnant, having your developing young riped from you and eaten while you are still alive. We do it all the time. It’s called gardening and those ovaries are fruits and vegetables.
[/quote]
I’d rather eat all wild animals, who at least experienced some real living. Even humans are domesticated, and never truly wild.
[quote]Lou Garu wrote:
Yeah Sep, it would have something to do with faith. It’s just what I believe. You got yours and I got mine.
[/quote]
Yes, but you see, you cannot use faith to uphold your point of view when it concerns something that can be scientifically examined. Proof is what matters in science. Science could very well be considerd the opposite of faith, and that is why your statement was intrinsically self-defeating.
[quote]
And no, I don’t spend my life holed up in a bomb shelter reading about conspiracies and the apocalypse. Don’t you think it’s pretty shallow to peg me as a “conspiracy nutter” from a few words? That’s how a lot of ideas die, b/c they’re just dismissed as conspiracies or bigotry and the world keeps “spinning”.
So many people here think they know somebody from a few sentences, let’s all be straight here, we really know jack shit about each other.
Keep an open mind about all the crazy shit that happens in this world. Somebody is always trying to manipulate you.
Later![/quote]
I wholeheartedly agree that people are always trying to manipulate you. Ironically, that’s exactly what you were doing. You were manipulating a completely trivial fact about the UN in NY being constructed on the site of an old slaughterhouse, and how this somehow obviously shows that they were intentionally doing this in a symbolic attempt to represent their agenda? PLEASE.
I question everything. I agree that people should consider conspiracy theories and also attempt to educate themselves on the complicated networks of power and corruption, which exist in this world. However, because I question everything, this also means that I will question conspirators just as much as I will those in power. I QUESTION EVERYTHING.
As you say, I am always seeking to broaden my mind and keep it open. This doesn’t mean that I should accept everything as truth. While I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, like I said, I question everything. I don’t assume that you are a conspiracy nutter, nor do I believe that I know anything about you. But I do know what you said about the UN site, and I think it is absurd.
I may not know you, but I know what you said. And what you said is rediculous.
However, you may be a really cool person and I could probably end up being your friend had we the opportunity, but that doesn’t mean I can’t discredit what other people say just because I don’t know them!
Anyways, I don’t mean it to be utterly personal, but lets just say that I am in complete disagreement with your statement, and your approach to settling your arguement with those about post-salughtered hormonal profiles in cattle.
Restecpa,
-Sep.
[quote]Lou Garu wrote:
and then they’re scared shitless before they’re slaughtered so the adrenaline and fear content is high in their meat too. And then you eat that.
[/quote]
fear content?
you can eat fear?
sounds like total B.S.
You should not kill animals for food.
You should only kill animals for fun.
Anyway, you don’t have to kill the animal, you can just eat its legs, and it can get by fine. Especially in those cages where they can’t fall over.
Don’t forget, one day you will DIE, and your body will rot its way back into the food chain, and those bloody animals will be eating you, without remorse. Animals can’t think about the morality of eating US. That’s why I only eat sentient creatures, that can think and talk, like dolphins, monkeys and babies. Studies show babies have the highest bioavailability protein that most closely matches what you need for muscle growth.
…
Seriously though, some people can thrive on a veg. and vegan diet, but not many, and usually not as many as who go on it. Often these people are malnourished and don’t know it. My evidence for this is the people coming in to hospital needing treatment for chronic malnourishment. And also, the many veg’s who after years of goign that way, realised they utterly, utterly needed meat.
Some people also thrive on a mostly meat diet.
Sadly we cannot change the way we are, only plants can get by without destroying life, animals have to eat some other living thing. And we were never meant to eat plants alone. At least, not in recent evolution.
Anyone remember that “Fit for Life” book? drove me nuts. It argued we should not eat meat because meat eating animals like lions have a high acid stomach. Stupid book ignoring the fact that the high acid stomach of such creatures is for eat ligaments etc… and for dogs, bones etc… which we can’t eat (unless you pressure cook them, in which case bones spread like butter). That book suggested we eat like cows … which have 4 stomachs and eat all day and night. Idiot book. Gullible public.
Yes,science does,but I’ve seen people who were deficient in b-12 and it’s a very important vitamin.If we couldn’t produce vitamins vegans whould have to eat meat.There is no way around it.Interesing website however. [quote]Kailash wrote:
Cthulhu wrote:
Think about it.Vegans say that we were made to digest plant foods,but without red meat we wouldn’t get vitamin b-12.So that wouldn’t be natural.If we weren’t suppose to eat meat than vitamin b-12 wouldn’t be in meat(one of the most important vitamins).
And who knows what nutrients are missing from the vegan diet besides B-12. Science discovers nutrients one by one, with little idea of what might be working beyond what has been observed.
Here is a good website, relevant to this thread:
http://www.beyondveg.com/[/quote]
Someday I will eat almost entirely animals I have raised or hunted and killed in the wild and plant matter that I have cultivated with my two hands. Having done all those things to some extent, I feel I respect and value the living things that die to feed me in a way people who haven’t experienced those things usually don’t.
I don’t like the way large dairys keep their cows on concrete their whole short lives and leave them so burned out from their diet that they only last a couple lactations. I don’t like the way modern feed lots work either. Or hog confinements, or caged laying hens for that matter.
But I still eat conventional commercially produced agricultural products because I can’t afford to do otherwise. I stay on top of developements in the industry and look forward to working with Dad on the family farm this spring to turn out some grassfed calves and homegrown vegetables. That’s how I hope to make a little impact, but I’m certainly not going to stop eating animals. That’d be like a hungry lion not trying to eat me. And a world where I’m not food for animals bigger, stronger and meaner then me is a world I don’t want to live in.
[quote]samdiesel wrote:
Being a vegan who completely neglects everything else logical and sane about nutrition.
I work with a guy who is a hard core vegan - as in no animals or animal products. Eggs, butter, dairy - all out.
This would by itself be foolish, but he compounds it by replacing meat with tons and tons of soy-derived products, eating hydrogenated oils like they were going out of style and of course, white breads like nobody’s business.
If I were going to give advice about nutrition to a newbie, I would start, regardless of his goals by saying avoid processed grains, hydrogenated oils and soy.
This guy drives me insane!
So you know, we’re both very lean, but I have about 40 pounds on him - muscle from my barbaric omnivorious quality.
Scary how some people can be infulenced to fanatacism, even at the cost of their own health.[/quote]
Whats worse than being a Vegan? Being a Virgin, I suppose…
Chances are I read half of what was there and forgot half of what I read last night.
So i’m gonna say no?
[quote]The Mage wrote:
JokerFMJ wrote:
If you eat the babies can I have the afterbirth? Mmmm, Placenta.
Are you not reading my posts?[/quote]
[quote]Sepukku wrote:
I wholeheartedly agree that people are always trying to manipulate you. Ironically, that’s exactly what you were doing. You were manipulating a completely trivial fact about the UN in NY being constructed on the site of an old slaughterhouse, and how this somehow obviously shows that they were intentionally doing this in a symbolic attempt to represent their agenda? PLEASE.
I question everything. I agree that people should consider conspiracy theories and also attempt to educate themselves on the complicated networks of power and corruption, which exist in this world. However, because I question everything, this also means that I will question conspirators just as much as I will those in power. I QUESTION EVERYTHING.
As you say, I am always seeking to broaden my mind and keep it open. This doesn’t mean that I should accept everything as truth. While I give everyone the benefit of the doubt, like I said, I question everything. I don’t assume that you are a conspiracy nutter, nor do I believe that I know anything about you. But I do know what you said about the UN site, and I think it is absurd.
I may not know you, but I know what you said. And what you said is rediculous.
However, you may be a really cool person and I could probably end up being your friend had we the opportunity, but that doesn’t mean I can’t discredit what other people say just because I don’t know them!
Anyways, I don’t mean it to be utterly personal, but lets just say that I am in complete disagreement with your statement, and your approach to settling your arguement with those about post-salughtered hormonal profiles in cattle.
Restecpa,
-Sep.[/quote]
The thing about the U.N., I know it’s really far fetched. I never said that they built it there for that purpose, I did say that it deserves to be questioned. And for you, who questions everything, I know you can understand that much. I’m not trying to manipulate you, I’m trying to open your mind up to things that you can’t analyze.
Where me and you disagree is the science vs. faith thing. I don’t believe in an orgranized religion, but I do believe that “science” is wrong all the time and a lot of it is bullshit. Many people need science to “prove” what they know but I think its like riding with blinders on, if you’re read me.
Just b/c you can’t see, feel, taste, smell, touch something… doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist! There is existence beyond our five senses. There are frequences we can’t hear, see, etc. You can “sense” fear and panic even though your environment would seem calm. Follow?
As for the t-readers out there who think I don’t know what I’m talking about when I say “fear content” in the meat… I’m trying to say that if you eat something that’s scared shitless when you murder it, the meat is different, and you’re consuming that adrenaline in the meat…
If you all want to you should read up on it, like the difference between kosher/halal meat and commercial meat. I don’t want to stand here on a soapbox preaching hippie shit, just wanna give angles that some people might not consider. I don’t have fuckin’ time to gather scientific facts and references and present a thesis, nor do I want to. Read up on it if you’re curious, if you’re just gonna dismiss me as some moron without at least checking into it, then there’s nothing I can do for someone that shallow.
For the believers no explaination is needed, for the non-believers no explaination is good enough.
I gotta go take a shit, I’m not posting on this thread anymore. Proper respect to you all.