It’s your life. You have no moral obligation to live if you don’t want to. Right now the economies of the world are terrible and irrationalism in general is rampant, so many peoples’ lives are fucked up to the max. I don’t buy into this concept of depression as a medical condition.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
I’m willing to bet the cases of depression have skyrocketed in the past 50 years, and I think that it is down to diets and food allergies causing these problems, food standards and quality seem to be getting lower all over the world.
I’m not an expert on this by any means (there are a few members on here that are highly versed in this field) but the most common allergies are wheat and dairy.
If you have an intolerance you may not even show any physical symptoms, but if those allergies prevent you from absorbing certain vitamins and/or nutrients, you will eventually have a lack thereof in your brain - the so called chemical imbalance.
Drugs won’t fix this because they don’t cure your allergies, and this is where avoiding certain foods altogether and following the right type of diet can correct many mental problems (obviously there is a lot more to it than that, but hopefully you can see what I’m getting at).
[/quote]
Completely agree. Diet plays a HUGE role and people (especially many doctors) downplay it far too much (as if you are some sort of tree hugging hippy if you recommend it).
The plot thickens (suicide guy in OP).
Basically, amongst depression the guy had many issues including strong jealousy, anger management, possessiveness, insecurity, paranoia etc That’s a lot of burden to carry…
He assaulted his girlfriend in the middle of the street and neighbours had to pull him off her - at which point he went inside and “ended it all”. Although he had angry outbursts, what happened that night was pretty out of character and left her shaken up. She lost her mother about 6 months ago, her brother had a heart attack the same weekend that her bf took his life, and her sister-in-law had a heart attack the day after - this poor woman has had it all and is left with grief and no confidence.
On top of it all, his family blames her for his suicide and she blames herself.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
[quote]bond james bond wrote:
I’ve always wondered to myself, if the folks that take their own life could see the ripple affect it has on people that loved them would they still go through with it. Sounds silly I know but maybe they would change their mind.
[/quote]
Highly doubtful.
It’s pretty common knowledge that when someone commits suicide they’re really going to affect those around them - my friend vowed never to do it because of that reason (among others), and yet he still went through with it.[/quote]
Some think that by killing themselves, they’re actually doing loved ones a favor… That they don’t have to worry about them anymore and will get over it soon enough.
Their life is disposable and feel like they’re placing a burden on the people around them.
Clinically Depressed people don’t think rationally. But, they believe that they do and it’s their reality.
I was suicidal off and on for years. The closest I got to attempting it was sitting in the middle of my road when I was 15. My house is the only house on that road and it dead ends so there was a pretty good chance I wasn’t going to get hit by anyone, but it scared the shit out of my parents. Took me until I was 21 to have a breakdown, drop out of college, and get therapy. Turns out I suffer from double depression. Suicide attempts and depression run in my family. My father has it, his brother had it, his father had it (OMG, I’m a Star Wars movie…) and did actually try to kill himself.
The only thing that kept me from actively attempting suicide is what it would do to my parents. They didn’t have me until they were 40 so having another kid was not an option. I could never devastate them that way. Besides, I KNEW life would get better. I just had to wait until I grew up and got the hell away from my hometown and the assholes in it.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]spyoptic wrote:
I don’t know what its called but isn’t there a psychological phenomenon where a place with one suicide suffers a spike in suicides the following years? There was also a jump in suicide rates after Kurt Cobain’s ticket got punched.[/quote]
That would make sense.
A nearby town to us actually had 18 cases of suicide! I think this was all within 2 years. It made it into the paper because people speculated that a pact was made or something (most of the individuals knew each other)[/quote]
Was that the one in Wales? Most of the people were young right? Teens and people in their early 20s. Really, really odd.
My partner works in the mental health field, and has visited the place a few times. No one talked about it there, but yeah, it was very odd. Especially the connections, like you said.
Bond, not sure if you’re also from Toronto, but a couple of years ago, there was a spike of suicides where people jumped on the subway tracks.
It wasn’t a large number of people but it was a sudden jump (no pun intended) of suicides.
I think I agree with one of the posters who said, it’s a spontaneous thing kind of where something triggers it. One day, the circumstances just line up in a fucked up way and someone decides to end it all. It builds up obviously over the years, but one of the factors is they hear someone commit suicide and that kind of invites them to do it too, they just happen to be walking along train tracks and they see a train coming, or a bridge that they walk through everyday suddenly looks very inviting and BOOM, they jump.
It’s messed up man, but I’m sure it’s more complex than anyone who doesn’t suffer from this mind set of committing suicide can explain.
From my perspective, anyone who is willing to risk immense pain and discomfort (not all methods are instant) must really be struggling with life.
It is almost impossible for us to put ourselves in that person’s mind. Obviously, try to help your loved ones as much as possible, but the simple fact is that many of these people are going through (or certainly feel so) something utterly horrible. Judging them as weak or selfish shows how little thought you’ve given to suicide.
To the idiots suggesting that you might as well enjoy life, if the other option is 100% death. I hope you’re joking. Read any literature about depression, and you’ll see that the language of enjoyment doesn’t even apply.
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]spyoptic wrote:
I don’t know what its called but isn’t there a psychological phenomenon where a place with one suicide suffers a spike in suicides the following years? There was also a jump in suicide rates after Kurt Cobain’s ticket got punched.[/quote]
That would make sense.
A nearby town to us actually had 18 cases of suicide! I think this was all within 2 years. It made it into the paper because people speculated that a pact was made or something (most of the individuals knew each other)[/quote]
Was that the one in Wales? Most of the people were young right? Teens and people in their early 20s. Really, really odd.
My partner works in the mental health field, and has visited the place a few times. No one talked about it there, but yeah, it was very odd. Especially the connections, like you said.[/quote]
Oh yeah that was it. I was getting mixed up (thought it was local) because it made it into one of our local papers.
I guess it would effect the whole town since everyone knows each other, or is connected in some way.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
[quote]spyoptic wrote:
I don’t know what its called but isn’t there a psychological phenomenon where a place with one suicide suffers a spike in suicides the following years? There was also a jump in suicide rates after Kurt Cobain’s ticket got punched.[/quote]
That would make sense.
A nearby town to us actually had 18 cases of suicide! I think this was all within 2 years. It made it into the paper because people speculated that a pact was made or something (most of the individuals knew each other)[/quote]
Was that the one in Wales? Most of the people were young right? Teens and people in their early 20s. Really, really odd.
My partner works in the mental health field, and has visited the place a few times. No one talked about it there, but yeah, it was very odd. Especially the connections, like you said.[/quote]
Oh yeah that was it. I was getting mixed up (thought it was local) because it made it into one of our local papers.
I guess it would effect the whole town since everyone knows each other, or is connected in some way.[/quote]
Yeah, freaked me out really. It doesn’t help that I’ve been influenced by hollywood all my life so instead of thinking of a rational explanation, my first reaction was the fucking blair witch project.
I’m sure that in a few years we’ll hear a lot more about it, as the pain will lessen and people will begin to investigate more rigorously.
As for the psychology of depression; to help yourself (mostly with mild-moderate depression), you’ve got to look to the future, and not the past/present. Make up things to look forward to, don’t turn down opportunities especially if it involves family/friends/others. Dwelling on things, mulling them over in your mind is bad.
I know this sounds cliche, but you really do have to FORCE yourself to think positive thoughts. Negative thoughts drain you, and mess up your brain chemistry even more (they cause you to have restless sleep, which in turn screws up the chemistry even more). Whereas, positive thoughts do the opposite.
Sounds strange, but you CAN trick yourself into thinking positively. You can “rewire” your own thought pattern. But it takes practice. You’ve got to reason to yourself that you are not in a position to make objective thoughts based on your current emotional/mental state. You’ve got to imagine that the depression is like a 2nd person, something that’s not a part of you (almost like a cynical devil whispering in your ear). Just like you wouldn’t expect a person in a wheelchair to help you lift something, likewise, wouldn’t expect yourself to have a naturally positive outlook on your situation because of your illness (so you naturally are NOT objective). Just like the compass that always points north because of the magnetic field, with depression your brain will always point towards negativity (unless you pro-actively guide it not to)…and those small steps lead to big improvements which help to break that vicious, self defeating cycle of depressive feeling/dodgy chemistry and thoughts (that is, the dark pits of depression).
Obviously, that’s just the psychological side of things. A depressed person needs the right treatments too, which in turn helps them in small steps to break the cycle
Also, I don’t want to insult anyone’s intelligence; everyone’s experience in life is different. But the same principles like above still apply. Part of this is all about working out your own path.
[quote]CopingMechanism wrote:
[quote]koleah wrote:
[quote]Blaze_108 wrote:
.[/quote]
I’ve had this EXACT thought. Love it. Fuck people that want to kill themselves. If they channel it right, they can attempt (and probably achieve) anything, because their other option inherently has a 100% death rate.[/quote]
I had a close friend who took his life many years ago. A first Gulf War veteran. A man whom I had know since childhood. He was suffering with PTSD which included recurring nightmares to the point where he couldnt sleep for more than two hour spurts at a time; and numerous other health complications, including being in almost chronic pain from back injuries sustained from a helicopter crash. He had also seen the breakdown of his marriage, lost his job and had been forced onto living on disability. His quality of life was zero. I knew he was severy depressed, perhpas even more so than usual, during the last and final time we spoke when we met up for beers, and as I sat there sympathetically inquiring about medications, and wether or not they were working, and as he described then his suffering in more and more succinct detail, I suddenly felt a wave of upset come over me at the realisation that I was utterly powerless to help my friend.
Bill hung himslef one early October day in 1994. I believe it was a Tuesday. About three weeks after we last met.
His apartment’s maintanence manager discovered his body some two weeks later when some of the other residents complained about a stench in the hallway…
It really is a damn shame that you, and that other teenager (I assume you are of similar age and maturity), were not there to give that him pep talk. I’m sure that you, with your enduring and wordly insights, could have convinced him to man up and ‘channel it right’. It’s also a shame you also couldn’t of given your opinion to his family, or some of the members from his old unit. I’m sure the choice words of your generalisation would have gone down well with them.
Understand, suicide, like most other facets of human behaviour, is staggering complex. Perhaps, it would seem, too complex for your average American.
With this in mind, simplisitc and infantile chastisisms like - “It’s a selfish act”, “It’s the cowards way out”, “How could they do that to their family”, “It it never an option” - demonstrate not only a grand failure in logic and perspective, but also a thouroughly self-serving, and therefore illegitimate deduction.
If any of you who so readily demonize suicidality would actually have the perspectivity to go beyond your socially conditioned prejudices and do some reading into the biology, psychology and sociology of the subject, you might find yourself with a slightly more encompassing and empathetic viewpoint.
Also understand, and this is the most salient point I wish to get across, suicide is rarely chosen, nor often do the suicide wish to really die. It primarily a result of when aggreagated pains exceed available coping resources. The suicidal want to negate that pain, and when coping resources on offer in their social sphere fail to deliever, then cessation of mortality and consciousness, (and therefore suffering) becomes a viable option.
Sometimes it is indeed a failure of rationalism and perspective on their part, to see the real, viable alternatives, and a mistaken view of permanace to their current circumstances. These are the more tragic cases where adequate counsel and a realistic inventory of problems could have led to mitigation of the feelings of powerlessness that permeate suicidal thinking. Other times it is the end of result of cold, relaisation that life is indeed not worth living, becasue there will only be more misery and pain, and that misery and pain will outstrip the capaacity to feel or recieve any joy.
It is our great American cultural myth, that one has and should be able to draw upon limitless amounts of stoicism, and that one always has the personal volition to change one’s circumstances for the better, if only they are motivated enough. Anyone who has experienced the more sinister side of life or visited some darker corners of the globe knows that life is far more random and cruel that we would ever like to admit. Some people truly get dealt a shitty deck even in a materially opulant sociey such as ours; and whilst certainly due to genetics, upbrining and social resources, some are better at dealing with the arrows that our inevitabley slung at us in life, none of us are invincible. There is a breaking point for all of us, some reach it earlier than others. That’s why the “his/her problems werent that bad” (the ones that were of been apparent to you, the onlooler, at least) becomes redundant. Everyone has a breaking under accrued weight, and what broke the camels back was just that - the final blow. That breakup, job loss or something as innocuous as a broken fan belt was just part of a long line of accrued and (more than likely) silent miseries, so for blaming a suicide on a persons lack of will in respoinse to an apparent circumstnace, is incredibly short-sighted.
I miss Bill.
Before things got bad for him - before Saddam invaded Kuwait, before that chopper suffered a rudder failure and crashed, before his wife couldnt deal with him waking up screaming in the middle of the night, before it hurt Bill too much climb a step-ladder to repair a light fitting - he was warm, optimistic a pleasure to be around. The type of friend you could count on at a moments notice to help you out. I would very much like to him again. I’d like to drink some Sam Adams on my back porch with him, or go lift as we we did in our first forays into the weightroom in high school, or just cruise around in my car like we did as teenagers checking out the girls.
I also know that my friend was suffering physically and mentally in such a way that I feel no human should have to go through. He had endured enough bad luck and misfortune as far as any realisitc person would agree with.
It was dissapointment after dissapointment as one medication would improve one symptom for his complications but give him two extra side effects. The guy couldn’t get a fucking break. Am I upset that my freind committed suicde? Yes, to this day. Did I, along with his family members, feel such terrible greif, anger and guilt when he passed? Yes, also to this day. I am in the back of my mind, also relieved that he is no longer suffering, that he no longer has to go through the agony of another day?, that is also an unequivocal yes too.[/quote]
Best post I have ever read on this site.
[quote]RSGZ wrote:
I lost my best friend in 2009 - http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/music_movies_girls_life/never_have_regrets?id=3453261&pageNo=0
Miss the fucker like crazy, I still don’t think I’m used to him not being around anymore.
I think it’s beyond the everyday person’s understanding when it comes to the thought process of someone who actually goes through with it - and I guess there are different type of depression because some people can have seemingly great lives (such as my friend Kai) but something can go wrong in the head.
My friend was a big drinker and enjoyed the occasional drug binge, but I’m willing to bet no one saw he was depressed. Even though we chatted daily for hours via type, I had no idea that anything was wrong when he called me that morning before he hung himself.
The thing that bugs me most is that I’ll never know why, and what I could have done to help him. It fucking sucks.[/quote]
Sorry for your loss RSGZ. Sad as it is there is likely nothing you could have done.
Usually when someone relies heavily on drugs and alcohol it is not to feel better, but to not feel at all.
[quote]Testy1 wrote:
Best post I have ever read on this site.
[/quote]
It really is. To be honest - one of the best posts I’ve seen on most sites. Heartfelt, honest and above all - understanding. Kudos for sharing your story CM.
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I know this sounds cliche, but you really do have to FORCE yourself to think positive thoughts. Negative thoughts drain you, and mess up your brain chemistry even more (they cause you to have restless sleep, which in turn screws up the chemistry even more). Whereas, positive thoughts do the opposite.
Sounds strange, but you CAN trick yourself into thinking positively. You can “rewire” your own thought pattern. But it takes practice. You’ve got to reason to yourself that you are not in a position to make objective thoughts based on your current emotional/mental state[/quote]
You’re right. It’s a state of mind that needs to be forcefully skewed by the individual. Granted some people are more open to this than others. I think the people that do decide to end it all, a lot of the time just haven’t been made aware of the techniques to employ or are just unwilling to adopt those techniques subconsciously despite maybe seeming like they really want it. Their mind just can’t make that connection. It takes will power to change a state of mind - just look at reprogramming eating habits of obese people. You aren’t going to achieve it in one step. It takes a series of steps and a number of periods of trial and error.
Through practice, it can be made more favourable.
[quote]Teledin wrote:
[quote]its_just_me wrote:
I know this sounds cliche, but you really do have to FORCE yourself to think positive thoughts. Negative thoughts drain you, and mess up your brain chemistry even more (they cause you to have restless sleep, which in turn screws up the chemistry even more). Whereas, positive thoughts do the opposite.
Sounds strange, but you CAN trick yourself into thinking positively. You can “rewire” your own thought pattern. But it takes practice. You’ve got to reason to yourself that you are not in a position to make objective thoughts based on your current emotional/mental state[/quote]
You’re right. It’s a state of mind that needs to be forcefully skewed by the individual. Granted some people are more open to this than others. I think the people that do decide to end it all, a lot of the time just haven’t been made aware of the techniques to employ or are just unwilling to adopt those techniques subconsciously despite maybe seeming like they really want it. Their mind just can’t make that connection. It takes will power to change a state of mind - just look at reprogramming eating habits of obese people. You aren’t going to achieve it in one step. It takes a series of steps and a number of periods of trial and error.
Through practice, it can be made more favourable.[/quote]
Yeah, some people need more convincing than others, and even then, unfortunately because of circumstances and character, some will never “get it”.
The 1st thought that goes through a depressed person’s mind is;
“ha, you think it’s so easy to get over this, no chance! You have no idea what you’re talking about, it’s far easier said than done”
9 times out of 10, they actually feel it’s impossible to improve (no light at the end of the tunnel). If you can get past that stage, (the stage of feeling helpless) and you understand that your feelings aren’t normal and you don’t deserve to feel that way (that you have the power to change your situation), you’re already half-way on the road to recovery.
I think that just about anyone over the age of 16 will know or know of someone who committed suicide. My first experience was when I was 14, the kid a few houses down from my cousin blew his brains out with a shotgun. I knew the kid on sight, he was supposedly troubled. The next was a girlfriend’s brother who gassed himself in the garage with a running car. This guy was in and out of psychiatric programs. I had a tenant living with me, he was in and out of work, he went down the street one evening and shot himself in his car. I could go on with more examples.
Even my wife had a couple of guys at work who took the easy way out and her boss’ brother. We had a young girl in town hang herself just a year ago… only age 18. And there’s not much you can say at the wake for these parents.
The way it was explained to my wife (they had a psychologist come in at work) that suicide is a very selfish act. All they think about revolves around them. Be it mental illness of whatever… still a creepy way to check out and leave others to clean up the mess.
BG
CM, you really moved me with your story.
Sometimes people, like your friend, are caught in circumstances that are simply devastating. The agony is literally unimaginable to someone who has never been so unfortunate.
Additionally, people react differently to depressing times. It is an actual medical condition that some people are more sensitive to depression. It’s a disease just as brutal as cancer, and much more insidious, because the depressed person is in agony, yet can’t pinpoint any pain. The body is healthy, yet is crushed to the knees. What’s wrong? You can’t point to anything. Medication can help brain chemisty get back to normal, but is not a magic bullet.
Also, current research suggests that those who attempt suicide have low levels of impulse control. There’s evidence that the regular brain hardware isn’t functioning.
You can’t just toss off the problem as “He’s selfish” That’s like telling someone who has a hungry tiger climbing onto him “Stop thinking of yourself, you’re selfish”. Remember, the instinct of self-preservation is the most powerful drive in an animal, and it takes a huge amount of anguish to overcome it.
On a lighter note, if you can call it that, I have kind of a funny story to share while we are on the topic of suicidal people. I am a LE Officer and was called to the scene of a subject threatening to jump from a three story building in the city that I work. When I arrived I found the guy, who I estimated to be in his early twenties, sitting on the roof with his legs dangling over the edge. A large crowd of people had gathered at the base of the building and were attempting to talk him down.
After moving the crowd back I attempted to engage the subject in conversation and get him talking. This guy would not say a word and sat there as if he was in his own little world, completely emotionless. He would not acknowledge anything that I or anyone else would say to him, let alone that we were even there. I went down a checklist in my mind of everything I could think of to get a response out of the guy such as if he had family, friends, priests, pastors, etc…that he would be willing to speak with.
Again, absolutely no response from the subject. To top things off the local radio station was playing Van Halen’s “Jump” and numerous cars kept driving by with their radios cranked. I found out later that someone had called into the station and made them aware of the situation that was going on downtown and requested the song.
In the meantime we placed several officers on the roof of the building along with a mental health worker. When the mental health worker approached the subject she offered a cigarette to him. The subject promptly took the cigarette from her, crushed it in his hand, and threw it over the edge of the building. He then moved away from her and scooted forward as if he was going to jump.
At this point the only thing I could think of to say to the guy was “Your not high enough to kill yourself. The only thing you are going to do is bust yourself up real good and it is going to hurt bad.” The subject then turned and looked at me, looked up and down as if he was sizing up the building he was getting ready to jump from, and scooted back from the edge. The other officers that were already on the roof then grabbed the subject and wrestled him away from the edge, secured him, and transported him to our local hospital for a mental evaluation.
Later that day I was asked to speak with the doctor who was conducting the mental evaluation. He asked for my account of what had occurred for his report due to the fact that he was going to involuntary commit the subject to a mental hospital. The doctor told me that the only statement that he could get out of the guy was that “he needed to find a taller building next time.”
I am not sure what happened to the guy after being admitted to the mental hospital. Frankly, I have my doubts that he is still alive today. It has been my experience that most suicidal subjects that respond in this fashion really do intend on killing themselves and eventually do succeed. The ones that call 9-1-1 and announce that they are going to kill themselves are the ones that really don’t want to die and are merely crying out for help.
[quote]clinton131 wrote:
On a lighter note, if you can call it that, I have kind of a funny story to share while we are on the topic of suicidal people. I am a LE Officer and was called to the scene of a subject threatening to jump from a three story building in the city that I work. When I arrived I found the guy, who I estimated to be in his early twenties, sitting on the roof with his legs dangling over the edge. A large crowd of people had gathered at the base of the building and were attempting to talk him down.
After moving the crowd back I attempted to engage the subject in conversation and get him talking. This guy would not say a word and sat there as if he was in his own little world, completely emotionless. He would not acknowledge anything that I or anyone else would say to him, let alone that we were even there. I went down a checklist in my mind of everything I could think of to get a response out of the guy such as if he had family, friends, priests, pastors, etc…that he would be willing to speak with.
Again, absolutely no response from the subject. To top things off the local radio station was playing Van Halen’s “Jump” and numerous cars kept driving by with their radios cranked. I found out later that someone had called into the station and made them aware of the situation that was going on downtown and requested the song.
In the meantime we placed several officers on the roof of the building along with a mental health worker. When the mental health worker approached the subject she offered a cigarette to him. The subject promptly took the cigarette from her, crushed it in his hand, and threw it over the edge of the building. He then moved away from her and scooted forward as if he was going to jump.
At this point the only thing I could think of to say to the guy was “Your not high enough to kill yourself. The only thing you are going to do is bust yourself up real good and it is going to hurt bad.” The subject then turned and looked at me, looked up and down as if he was sizing up the building he was getting ready to jump from, and scooted back from the edge. The other officers that were already on the roof then grabbed the subject and wrestled him away from the edge, secured him, and transported him to our local hospital for a mental evaluation.
Later that day I was asked to speak with the doctor who was conducting the mental evaluation. He asked for my account of what had occurred for his report due to the fact that he was going to involuntary commit the subject to a mental hospital. The doctor told me that the only statement that he could get out of the guy was that “he needed to find a taller building next time.”
I am not sure what happened to the guy after being admitted to the mental hospital. Frankly, I have my doubts that he is still alive today. It has been my experience that most suicidal subjects that respond in this fashion really do intend on killing themselves and eventually do succeed. The ones that call 9-1-1 and announce that they are going to kill themselves are the ones that really don’t want to die and are merely crying out for help.[/quote]
Interesting experience. I’ll know what to say to someone about to jump now!
I have to add though (since your last paragraph reminded me of that statement “cry for help”) - that whether it is just a cry for help or not, that 100% of the time you still have to take it seriously (not sure about the 9-1-1 calls, just meaning people that you know in general who many just brush off as attention seekers).
About 2-3 weeks ago, the guy (in the OP) “threatened” his girlfriend with suicide (if she broke up with him again), but friends told her to stay clear of him and ignore him since he was just manipulating her and crying for attention…a few weeks later he hung himself.