What's In a Name?

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
harris447 wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
Ok thats great X. Regardless of all this, the whites have accomplished much much more. Even now Africa is a horrible continet. Its ruled by dictators, has famines horrible wars won by machetes and hutus killing and raping their brothers. Look at Europe, people like visiting there , its a civilized place if you dont count the recent terrorism. I do agree that blacks have accomplished less in America but that is from our country’s horrible racial practices of slavery and jim crow.

However i did like that one about the open heart surgury - thats quite a feat!

Africa hasn’t accomplished much in the past century for one reason and one reason alone, shithead: what white people did to it. Period.

Y’know what else white people invented? Grammar and punctuation. It kind of undercuts your “we’re much much better than you” argument when the white guy writes like a retard and the black guy (who’s a medical doctor, I seem to recall) gets Strunk and White’s approval.

So, really: knock off the white power bullshit, please.

how many white people are in Africa, and how many have been dictators? then re-think that explanation…
[/quote]

I was referring to the fallout from centuries of imperial rule and the corruption it fostered.

Do you know the true story of the Hutus and the Tutsis? or do you just want to make glib, unfunny comments?

[quote]harris447 wrote:
cycobushmaster wrote:
harris447 wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
Ok thats great X. Regardless of all this, the whites have accomplished much much more. Even now Africa is a horrible continet. Its ruled by dictators, has famines horrible wars won by machetes and hutus killing and raping their brothers. Look at Europe, people like visiting there , its a civilized place if you dont count the recent terrorism. I do agree that blacks have accomplished less in America but that is from our country’s horrible racial practices of slavery and jim crow.

However i did like that one about the open heart surgury - thats quite a feat!

Africa hasn’t accomplished much in the past century for one reason and one reason alone, shithead: what white people did to it. Period.

Y’know what else white people invented? Grammar and punctuation. It kind of undercuts your “we’re much much better than you” argument when the white guy writes like a retard and the black guy (who’s a medical doctor, I seem to recall) gets Strunk and White’s approval.

So, really: knock off the white power bullshit, please.

how many white people are in Africa, and how many have been dictators? then re-think that explanation…

I was referring to the fallout from centuries of imperial rule and the corruption it fostered.

Do you know the true story of the Hutus and the Tutsis? or do you just want to make glib, unfunny comments?[/quote]

i was referring to the fact that all of Africa’s problems are not the fault of white people.

and seriously, “unfunny” isn’t even a word…

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Ayyy. Once again, this is the reason I exited this thread, and now I regret that I even bothered. You are dense and unintelligent. I counter your backwards argument with facts, and you call me an asshole and say “Give blacks a chance”. You just don’t get it.

You obviously have no idea how much racism is still a part of life. I live in NJ. And there are tons of people here, some folks that I work with even, who see a black man walk into the store and say, “Look at this fuckin’ N—er.”
So don’t tell me “give blacks a chance”. You dumbass, it isn’t people like me that don’t give them a chance. it is idiots like yourself that do not even try to understand their position, and do not understand that people simply cannot be trusted to give blacks a fair shot.

Do you even understand the idea that there can be a low-lying, nearly subconcious anger that permeates an entire race? That maybe they don’t want to be a part of a system they consider oppressive? That a failed educational system not only strips them of that we could call “goals” or “ambition” and gives them a completely different take on life then your lily white ass can comprehend? Obviously not.

Stop the “Let’s get together and give blacks a chance” bullshit. You obviously know nothing about race relations, the struggle for power between not only races but economic classes. Keep your thoughtless rhetoric for other like minded idiots.

And how much do you even know about Prof. X that you are talking about him moving on? How do you know he “moved on”? You are making assumptions here that you know nothing about.

You are a retard, and once again I am done with this thread. When something intelligent come back up on this thread, then maybe I’ll give it a shot again.

And Zap, i think the dropping of the “g” was a WWII thing wasn’t it? Its the same reason we call them hot dogs instead of frankfurters. Don’t forget a side of freedom fries. In times of war we do stupid things. I bet half the people in the country still put there Christmas trees up in the 40s though, which is derived from German tradition. Ironic huh.[/quote]

Ok, so you want to help the blacks? Is that what you are saying? If so, tell me what about your position as you have just outlined above helps the blacks?

Does it help to dwell on the past? Does it help to make them dependant on Government? Does it cause unity or division among all races to give blacks a different label than others? Why do we even need labels? Does it help to blame a failed education system (that has failed for the majority of all races) on the current plight of blacks? Does it help to point out current black failures as opposed to current successes (Pro X being one because he is a black physician)?

You see sport, those assholes who call blacks names for whatever reason are not what is holding them back. It is people like you who are holding them back. People who say blacks can’t make it because of the past wrongs (and yet we have blacks in most all levels of society, MD’s, lawyers, judges, etc [holly crap, how did that happen in your world of gloom and doom?) are the problem.

So go ahead and go find some blacks who want to stay in poverty and stay dependant on YOU the great white hope! I, on the other hand, will be hanging with those blacks who know they have what it takes to succeed and I will wholeheartedly encourage that process.

And you know what, of our two camps, I’m winning! Everyday I see more and more blacks in places or activities that I didn’t see 20 years ago. They are succeeding economically and do what they want regardless of what people like you say they can or can’t do, and regardless of what their “culture” tells them is “normal” as well. This is happening more and more and you, my friend, cannot stop it.

So one day there will be no blacks in need of your help and they will be standing toe to toe with you EVERYWHERE you go. You will see them up skiing; at the health club (gym for T-men); golfing (oops ? that is already happening - you must just hate that!); race car driving; anywhere they damn well please. So you will not be able to keep them in your nice little safe dependant box much longer.

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
African-American does nothing to explain race-it’s explains origins. there are white, black and Arabic people from Africa, among others. Hell, Dave Matthews and Charize Theron are both “African Americans”…
[/quote]

Origin should be irrelevant in America as most all of us came from somewhere else.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

And Zap, i think the dropping of the “g” was a WWII thing wasn’t it? Its the same reason we call them hot dogs instead of frankfurters. Don’t forget a side of freedom fries. In times of war we do stupid things. I bet half the people in the country still put there Christmas trees up in the 40s though, which is derived from German tradition. Ironic huh.[/quote]

Yup. Good examples of bias against certain groups.

How many signs have you seen from the old days that say “Irish need not apply?”

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Ayyy. Once again, this is the reason I exited this thread, and now I regret that I even bothered. You are dense and unintelligent. I counter your backwards argument with facts, and you call me an asshole and say “Give blacks a chance”. You just don’t get it.

You obviously have no idea how much racism is still a part of life. I live in NJ. And there are tons of people here, some folks that I work with even, who see a black man walk into the store and say, “Look at this fuckin’ N—er.”
So don’t tell me “give blacks a chance”. You dumbass, it isn’t people like me that don’t give them a chance. it is idiots like yourself that do not even try to understand their position, and do not understand that people simply cannot be trusted to give blacks a fair shot.

Do you even understand the idea that there can be a low-lying, nearly subconcious anger that permeates an entire race? That maybe they don’t want to be a part of a system they consider oppressive? That a failed educational system not only strips them of that we could call “goals” or “ambition” and gives them a completely different take on life then your lily white ass can comprehend? Obviously not.

Stop the “Let’s get together and give blacks a chance” bullshit. You obviously know nothing about race relations, the struggle for power between not only races but economic classes. Keep your thoughtless rhetoric for other like minded idiots.

And how much do you even know about Prof. X that you are talking about him moving on? How do you know he “moved on”? You are making assumptions here that you know nothing about.

You are a retard, and once again I am done with this thread. When something intelligent come back up on this thread, then maybe I’ll give it a shot again.

And Zap, i think the dropping of the “g” was a WWII thing wasn’t it? Its the same reason we call them hot dogs instead of frankfurters. Don’t forget a side of freedom fries. In times of war we do stupid things. I bet half the people in the country still put there Christmas trees up in the 40s though, which is derived from German tradition. Ironic huh.

Ok, so you want to help the blacks? Is that what you are saying? If so, tell me what about your position as you have just outlined above helps the blacks?

Does it help to dwell on the past? Does it help to make them dependant on Government? Does it cause unity or division among all races to give blacks a different label than others? Why do we even need labels? Does it help to blame a failed education system (that has failed for the majority of all races) on the current plight of blacks? Does it help to point out current black failures as opposed to current successes (Pro X being one because he is a black physician)?

You see sport, those assholes who call blacks names for whatever reason are not what is holding them back. It is people like you who are holding them back. People who say blacks can’t make it because of the past wrongs (and yet we have blacks in most all levels of society, MD’s, lawyers, judges, etc [holly crap, how did that happen in your world of gloom and doom?) are the problem.

So go ahead and go find some blacks who want to stay in poverty and stay dependant on YOU the great white hope! I, on the other hand, will be hanging with those blacks who know they have what it takes to succeed and I will wholeheartedly encourage that process.

And you know what, of our two camps, I’m winning! Everyday I see more and more blacks in places or activities that I didn’t see 20 years ago. They are succeeding economically and do what they want regardless of what people like you say they can or can’t do, and regardless of what their “culture” tells them is “normal” as well. This is happening more and more and you, my friend, cannot stop it.

So one day there will be no blacks in need of your help and they will be standing toe to toe with you EVERYWHERE you go. You will see them up skiing; at the health club (gym for T-men); golfing (oops ? that is already happening - you must just hate that!); race car driving; anywhere they damn well please. So you will not be able to keep them in your nice little safe dependant box much longer.

[/quote]

Yea thats it. ALl the things I just said and you come out with I must hate that blacks golf. Retard.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Ok, so you want to help the blacks? Is that what you are saying? If so, tell me what about your position as you have just outlined above helps the blacks?

Does it help to dwell on the past? Does it help to make them dependant on Government? Does it cause unity or division among all races to give blacks a different label than others? Why do we even need labels? Does it help to blame a failed education system (that has failed for the majority of all races) on the current plight of blacks? Does it help to point out current black failures as opposed to current successes (Pro X being one because he is a black physician)?

You see sport, those assholes who call blacks names for whatever reason are not what is holding them back. It is people like you who are holding them back. People who say blacks can’t make it because of the past wrongs (and yet we have blacks in most all levels of society, MD’s, lawyers, judges, etc [holly crap, how did that happen in your world of gloom and doom?) are the problem.

So go ahead and go find some blacks who want to stay in poverty and stay dependant on YOU the great white hope! I, on the other hand, will be hanging with those blacks who know they have what it takes to succeed and I will wholeheartedly encourage that process.

And you know what, of our two camps, I’m winning! Everyday I see more and more blacks in places or activities that I didn’t see 20 years ago. They are succeeding economically and do what they want regardless of what people like you say they can or can’t do, and regardless of what their “culture” tells them is “normal” as well. This is happening more and more and you, my friend, cannot stop it.

So one day there will be no blacks in need of your help and they will be standing toe to toe with you EVERYWHERE you go. You will see them up skiing; at the health club (gym for T-men); golfing (oops ? that is already happening - you must just hate that!); race car driving; anywhere they damn well please. So you will not be able to keep them in your nice little safe dependant box much longer.

Yea thats it. ALl the things I just said and you come out with I must hate that blacks golf. Retard. [/quote]

Good rebuttal, you must have been the star of your high school debate team!

Or maybe you just have nothing to say because you can’t figure out how your position is the least bit helpful to improving the lives of black people.

[quote]Vroom, you are a reasonable guy, how does a label accomplish what you just described?

Also, think about the American Indians, or the PC term Native-Americans (another great label that has kept them in the shitter) and how well them having their own land has worked for them? The land that was to bring them freedom turned out to be a jail.

Now think about how those races that are integrated in the American society and culture are doing as a whole? Asians for example. They have one of the highest income levels in the US. Did they get that from a label? Do they use this label? Is it commonly used? The answer to these questions is no.[/quote]

I must have been at the Staley Bootcamp during the period this was posted?

I was not discussing labels, I was discussing the concept of pride and how it can be applied in various situations.

However, I will say, it isn’t labels that have kept people “in the shitter”. The fact that some groups either want or have been given a label doesn’t mean that it has a direct consequence on their further growth or development.

You’ll need to delve into the concepts of culture and history and develop a sense of understanding and empathy if you really want to understand what is happening in the world.

In short, various groups have been given labels. Later, they decided they didn’t like that label, because it was used to express racism, hatred or stereotypes. New labels were then chosen which did not have those associations. Pick your racist label: chink, spic, mick, limey, cracker and on and on.

If you seriously are wanting to understand these issues, you need to dig deep enough to figure out how the concepts of “PC” and “reverse discrimination” and “it’s okay to discuss the truth” are being used by those who are in fact racist.

I don’t mean that all who use those concepts are racist, that is not what I am saying! However, these concepts are promoted by racist individuals and groups because they are quite compelling to those that “don’t want to hear about” history and believe that “we should just ignore the past and move forward”.

Whether or not we should ignore the past isn’t up to “us”… by “us” I mean white people. It is up to “them”… and by “them” I mean those that have suffered extreme degredation, cultural and social damage. Those that have been mistreated in this way are the ones that can decide they are willing to forgive and forget.

Given the huge size of the transgressions and that there continues to exist active racism and the ugly consequences thereof, I’d imagine that this forgive and forget concept is still out in the future somewhere.

Perhaps when black people are no longer suffering the effects of the past that was inflicted on them they might be more inclined to let bygones be bygones? I hope you can see the fairness of that concept…

I think everyone, well everyone who isn’t actively racist, wants things to move forward so that these issues can be resolved and removed from the list of issues that need to be dealt with.

One thing you can do, as a white person, is to accept that black people have the right to decide what they do or don’t want to do with respect to any “resolution” or “release” of this issue.

You can also research the issues as they were in the past in order to understand other viewpoints and avoid listening to happy sounding rhetoric which is shared by racist groups.

In short, try to not to be sharing and promoting the same talking points as racist groups. If you find yourself in that situation, you need to find a different way to express yourself… or you are actually helping to promote their viewpoint – which they work very hard to make sound appropriate and acceptable.

Think about it. An open discourse is good and we can all learn from it, no matter our race.

[quote]vroom wrote:
Vroom, you are a reasonable guy, how does a label accomplish what you just described?

Also, think about the American Indians, or the PC term Native-Americans (another great label that has kept them in the shitter) and how well them having their own land has worked for them? The land that was to bring them freedom turned out to be a jail.

Now think about how those races that are integrated in the American society and culture are doing as a whole? Asians for example. They have one of the highest income levels in the US. Did they get that from a label? Do they use this label? Is it commonly used? The answer to these questions is no.

I must have been at the Staley Bootcamp during the period this was posted?

I was not discussing labels, I was discussing the concept of pride and how it can be applied in various situations.

However, I will say, it isn’t labels that have kept people “in the shitter”. The fact that some groups either want or have been given a label doesn’t mean that it has a direct consequence on their further growth or development.

You’ll need to delve into the concepts of culture and history and develop a sense of understanding and empathy if you really want to understand what is happening in the world.

In short, various groups have been given labels. Later, they decided they didn’t like that label, because it was used to express racism, hatred or stereotypes. New labels were then chosen which did not have those associations. Pick your racist label: chink, spic, mick, limey, cracker and on and on.

If you seriously are wanting to understand these issues, you need to dig deep enough to figure out how the concepts of “PC” and “reverse discrimination” and “it’s okay to discuss the truth” are being used by those who are in fact racist.

I don’t mean that all who use those concepts are racist, that is not what I am saying! However, these concepts are promoted by racist individuals and groups because they are quite compelling to those that “don’t want to hear about” history and believe that “we should just ignore the past and move forward”.

Whether or not we should ignore the past isn’t up to “us”… by “us” I mean white people. It is up to “them”… and by “them” I mean those that have suffered extreme degredation, cultural and social damage. Those that have been mistreated in this way are the ones that can decide they are willing to forgive and forget.

Given the huge size of the transgressions and that there continues to exist active racism and the ugly consequences thereof, I’d imagine that this forgive and forget concept is still out in the future somewhere.

Perhaps when black people are no longer suffering the effects of the past that was inflicted on them they might be more inclined to let bygones be bygones? I hope you can see the fairness of that concept…

I think everyone, well everyone who isn’t actively racist, wants things to move forward so that these issues can be resolved and removed from the list of issues that need to be dealt with.

One thing you can do, as a white person, is to accept that black people have the right to decide what they do or don’t want to do with respect to any “resolution” or “release” of this issue.

You can also research the issues as they were in the past in order to understand other viewpoints and avoid listening to happy sounding rhetoric which is shared by racist groups.

In short, try to not to be sharing and promoting the same talking points as racist groups. If you find yourself in that situation, you need to find a different way to express yourself… or you are actually helping to promote their viewpoint – which they work very hard to make sound appropriate and acceptable.

Think about it. An open discourse is good and we can all learn from it, no matter our race.[/quote]

There were way too many big words in here for Lorisco to understand, Vroom. It is a waste to engage in a battle of wits with those that appear unarmed.

[quote]vroom wrote:
However, I will say, it isn’t labels that have kept people “in the shitter”. The fact that some groups either want or have been given a label doesn’t mean that it has a direct consequence on their further growth or development.

You’ll need to delve into the concepts of culture and history and develop a sense of understanding and empathy if you really want to understand what is happening in the world.

In short, various groups have been given labels. Later, they decided they didn’t like that label, because it was used to express racism, hatred or stereotypes. New labels were then chosen which did not have those associations. Pick your racist label: chink, spic, mick, limey, cracker and on and on.
[/quote]

Can you think of any very successful racial group that has given themselves or accepted a label?

Labels are designed to make something distinct from other things. So labeling any racial group, by definition, makes that group different from the rest of the population.

Historically, any label, no matter how neutral can be used as a negative or racists. In fact, the idea of separating a certain group based on race alone, by definition, is racist. So giving anyone a label that is based purely on their race, is racist.

Looking historically at the blacks it has gone like this; “Negro” (a term that relates to a specific State/section of Africa - relates to geographic origin), “Colored” (specific to outward skin color), “Black” (also specific to skin color), “African-America” (back to a geographic origin label).

So looking at this list of labels that have been widely used and accepted by blacks and others throughout the years, only the first and most recent are specific to geographic origin. The others relate specifically to appearance.

Certainly having a label based on geographic origin is better then one that is based on appearance, but as we all know, any and all these labels have been used in a negative way to discriminate.

So my point is that you cannot bring people together by making someone different or giving them a label to separate them from the rest. People do not accept differences, they accept similarities. So a first step in integrating all the races is to drop labels that separate and focus and celebrate the similarities. Things that everyone can relate to.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
There were way too many big words in here for Lorisco to understand, Vroom. It is a waste to engage in a battle of wits with those that appear unarmed. [/quote]

You still can’t come up with a vaild rebuttal. All these personal attacks just highlight the weakness of your argument.

Lorisco,

There is a chicken and egg situation in your comments. If you feel groups should not have labels (and what group does not) then perhaps those groups should be made to feel part of the whole.

I can tell you that black people have not been approriately accepted into society or there would not be so many racial issues remaining.

Also, don’t confuse the definition of racism with trivial things such as having a polite descriptive name for groups based on differentiators.

Some people are oriental in origin, and when referring to this in an appropriate manner it is not at all racist. The use or purpose of the label is important within the definition.

I am troubled by the efforts to paint black people as a racist group. I am sure that such a thing exists, but I suspect treatment by the dominant powerful members of society fosters it and where it may exist.

Whether or not racism exists in all groups involved, there is one group that does not realistically suffer from the effects of racism, while all the others do. This privileged group is the one that needs to work the hardest to reduce the level of conflict and hope for an end to racism.

It is the group that has benefitted at the expense of other groups. Surely there is a sense of justice in most that would make this recognizably appropriate?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Whether or not racism exists in all groups involved, there is one group that does not realistically suffer from the effects of racism, while all the others do. This privileged group is the one that needs to work the hardest to reduce the level of conflict and hope for an end to racism.

It is the group that has benefitted at the expense of other groups. Surely there is a sense of justice in most that would make this recognizably appropriate?[/quote]

And I guess this would be another good reason why we don’t have a “white history” month. Good post, vroom.

Not to beat a dead horse but y’all still haven’t told me why i shouldnt be proud of being white among several other things…everybody says that it not a logical idea but i think that they are doing this out of sympathy for other disadavtaged groups. Anybody w/ a real reason? Seriously.

[quote]lumbernac wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse but y’all still haven’t told me why i shouldnt be proud of being white among several other things…everybody says that it not a logical idea but i think that they are doing this out of sympathy for other disadavtaged groups. Anybody w/ a real reason? Seriously.[/quote]

Just go back and read my post from a few pages ago, it answered your questions just fine. Be proud of what you are if you want to be, but be careful with it that it doesn’t turn into something else.

I have fun with my Scottish heritage, and I definitely don’t use it as a tool to separate myself or somehow “elevate myself” above someone else. What I do is bring as many folks as I can: black, white, yellow, green, whatever… to the Highland Games so they can see just how f’n crazy my fellow scotsmen are. It’s grrrRRREAT!!!

This is how everyone’s heritage should be to them. It should be fun, educational, and celebrated with a spirit of togetherness – not exclusion.

What a dipshit.

The pride movements are a tool used to withstand the act of oppression by a dominant group. To recover from it or withstand it and not be beaten.

Explain to me what fucking oppression white people have suffered, that you need to find a source of pride and self-respect in order to hold your head up and make it through your day because your dignity has been stolen, your rights trampled and blatant hatred expressed towards you.

The only thing the phrase “white pride” says is that you are either a completely ignorant tool or a racist motherfucker. Whichever it is, fix it.

That is all.

[quote]lumbernac wrote:
Not to beat a dead horse but y’all still haven’t told me why i shouldnt be proud of being white among several other things…everybody says that it not a logical idea but i think that they are doing this out of sympathy for other disadavtaged groups. Anybody w/ a real reason? Seriously.[/quote]

For Christ’s sake…

What have YOU done? What exactly have YOU done to be proud of? A “white” guy invented the lightbulb? Who the fuck cares; YOU had nothing to do with it. A “white” chick discovered radium? Great, were you her lab assistant? No. You–you, specifically–had nothing at all to do with any of these accomplishments.

So, then, why should you take pride in something a stranger did? Because this stranger’s eyes were the same color as yours? Because his hair was the same texture as yours?

Take pride in your own accomplishments. Do you have any?

I beleive that you can and if you like , should be able to be proud for more reasons than merely to help you feel better about injustices caused.

Proud- what does that mean? Im not going to look that up but im sure dictionary.com says something about feeling good about an accomplishment.

If i was to be proud of being a texan, it would be just as logical or illogical as being proud of being white since i am a member of both yet had nothing to do w/ either.

So we are talking about being proud on a moral issue. Is it moral to be proud for being white? Its certainly not hurting anything. Im not nececarilly proud that im not black either, I mean every black manager i’ve had has run circles around the white managers. I think that black people have a more practical mindset than white people sorry just my opinon and this may be the thread to mention that kind of thing if any. So i cant really say that i am superior in any way for being white. Im just proud of it - again b/c of all the accomplishments done by white people. If i wasnt white it would be pretty cool to be hispanic black or jewish.
And yes i am southern but you dont see me talking trash about other races. Anyway just my thoughts. Thanks!

[quote]vroom wrote:
What a dipshit.

The pride movements are a tool used to withstand the act of oppression by a dominant group. To recover from it or withstand it and not be beaten.

Explain to me what fucking oppression white people have suffered, that you need to find a source of pride and self-respect in order to hold your head up and make it through your day because your dignity has been stolen, your rights trampled and blatant hatred expressed towards you.

The only thing the phrase “white pride” says is that you are either a completely ignorant tool or a racist motherfucker. Whichever it is, fix it.

That is all.[/quote]

Although I think this post is ridiculous, to answer your question then I suppose that white people of greek descent could use that phrase, so could the Irish.

Storey, you are describing oppression of regional inhabitants, such that skin color is not the issue involved.

Perhaps it was religion, language, nationality or geography that was the crux of the issue?

You own language shows this by describing the people involved as “greek” or “irish” instead of just “white”.

Seriously, who but a complete idiot or racist ass goes around proclaiming white pride? Whether or not it is right, that is the way it is.

For example, I’m proud of the accomplishments of humanity, people, who have invented, accomplished and withstod all kinds of things. We are one species. Time spent squabbling amongst ourselves is time we could be achieving more.

We all have our own value and an ability to contribute in some way. We don’t have to compare pecker sizes, skin colors or anything else to feel good about ourselves.