What's In a Name?

[quote]skor wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.

Professor - is this something that bothers you? (this is truly out of curiousity) I grew up outside of US, in all white Ukraine. I do notice that I used “black” often in describing a black person while not using “white” in describing white. It changes as I spend more and more time in US…[/quote]

I don’t care in the least about someone calling me a black man. It is when that reference is used to negatively stereotype me without any knowledge of me as a person that I get pissed.

In an American context, being proud to be white means being happy you’re not black.

Nicely put, Irish. Leave it to a man from Jersey to get to the heart of the debate.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
jacross wrote:
Prof is saying that in that instance a label wouldn’t be needed.

So why would you rebut him by saying ‘What would a label accomplish without those things?’

That’s the point.

It is beyond amazing that this needed to be explained.

Cut the condescending crap, Pro X - you aren’t bright enough to pull it off.

It wasn’t a rebuttal - it was a question. What does the label ‘African-American’ have to do with whether or not people pre-conceive you?

Presumably you don’t want to be pre-conceived based on your race, but adopting that label isn’t getting you any closer to a day when that happens. It doesn’t help that cause.

In fact, isn’t it arguable that the opposite occurs, that you continually reinforce a racial label yourself when you don’t want others to?

The label keeps reminding people of your race. I thought you wanted to end that behavior. Hence the question about why the label?.[/quote]

Well said!

[quote]snipeout wrote:
Why is white pride such a shame while black pride is something so proud. People are so worried about offending other races that they supress their feelings about their own.[/quote]

Truth!

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
I just have one question for all “African-Americans” on this forum; what the hell does “African-American” mean? “_-American" used to mean that the person was born in another country and then came to the US. Now we have all these blacks, who have never even been to Africa, stating that they are African-American. Why? What the hell is wrong with just being American? Should every other race go back to their country of racial origin and have a hyphenated name as well? So let’s all be "-American” instead of just Americans because evidentially being American is just not good enough anymore.

Let’s stop the division people. If you are American, then be proud of it and be just American!

To answer your original question, I think it’s just a politically correct way of referring to someone who’s black.[/quote]

I think you are right, but why would it be PC to single someone out as anything more or less than American? Why can’t we all just be Americans?

People who are PC without using their brains think I’m racists for bringing this issue up. But to me, I’m only trying to remove the division, differences, and separation from the races. That starts with labels, then attitudes and then hopefully economic boundaries.

I have probably more black friends than most whites (oops! German-Americas, how un-PC of me) on this forum. And I can tell you many do not like the African-America label either. It’s as if they want to be an equal American, and the white PC establishment won’t let them. So much so that they have a different name than the rest of us. That is wrong folks. Get a clue!

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Why is white pride such a shame while black pride is something so proud. People are so worried about offending other races that they supress their feelings about their own.

Truth!

[/quote]

Being of German descent I have often thought that this is the case.

Italian Americans, Irish Americans etc are very proud of their heritage.

German Americans have suppressed a lot of traditions and heritage because of WWI and WWII.

Cities even changed the spelling of their names because of the wars. Pittsburgh is the only “burg” in the country that ket the “h” at the end. The rest of the cities dropped the “h” because it looked too German.

[quote]vroom wrote:
A downtrodden group, traditionally taken advantage of and treated like shit, demoralized for generations, needs to restore a sense of pride, to empower themselves, to allow things to equalize, to help personally understand and believe that they can and should be important in society.
[/quote]

Vroom, you are a reasonable guy, how does a label accomplish what you just described?

Also, think about the American Indians, or the PC term Native-Americans (another great label that has kept them in the shitter) and how well them having their own land has worked for them? The land that was to bring them freedom turned out to be a jail.

Now think about how those races that are integrated in the American society and culture are doing as a whole? Asians for example. They have one of the highest income levels in the US. Did they get that from a label? Do they use this label? Is it commonly used? The answer to these questions is no.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I am still amazed that any of this…even one word, needed to be explained. That alone shows there is a huge problem and we are far from the point at which we can pretend as if racism has died off to the point that there is no need for outward programs for development and education in the black community. [/quote]

How can anything die off when it is a constant focus? How can blacks be treated equally (meaning like everyone - not better and not worse) when they are separated out, given special names, told that they can’t make it without the government, and looked down upon by their own race for achievement?

You can’t make a group stand out in almost every way and then say we just want to fit in. Wake up bro.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Don’t talk to me about logic. To say that you can subjegate a race for 400 years and have them come out like nothing happened is alot more illogical. But then of course, thinking like that is just “PC”.

Its not fucking political correctness. Have you read any history books? Of course, no one alive now was brought here on a slave ship. No shit. But do you have any idea what that does to a race? Look at Ireland. They still suffer the effects of a thousand years of English oppression. This oppression, the lack of self worth and degradation they suffered is the reason that they gravitated towards the things they did, namely (and infamously) booze and violence. But then I guess that is “PC” to, and that country was just a waste of space until the computer boom in the 90s.

Just because blacks were “freed” in 1865, does not mean that they were free. What does it mean to you? I can probably trace my identity back to Ireland and Italy, and back even farther. Blacks don’t have that. They have no last name. They have no “heritage” (meaning your descendants leading directly back to another country) to be proud of, as they were taken. What does that do to people? To a race? When you are brought here by slave ships. “Freed”, only to suffer at the hands of a notoriously racist south, the KKK, Jim Crow laws, and a Democratic, anti-progressive south until the big paradigm shift of the 60s?

Sure there wasn’t slavery. But hey asshole, when did the Civil Rights movement happen? “Hundreds upon hundreds of years” ago? There are people that remember that.

“Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act of 1965 on August 6. The 1965 Act suspended poll taxes, literacy tests and other voter tests and authorized federal supervision of voter registration in states and individual voting districts where such tests were being used. African-Americans who had been barred from registering to vote finally had an alternative to the courts. If voting discrimination occurred, the 1965 Act authorized the Attorney General of the United States to send federal examiners to replace local registrars. Johnson reportedly stated to associates that signing the bill had lost the South for the Democratic Party for the foreseeable future.”

In a fucking democracy, it took blacks ten fucking years to be assured the right to vote. Depending on how old you are, you might remember this, or your father. What does that say about our democracy?

I don’t think you have any idea what it is to have your great-grandfather be a slave, your grandfather fearing the KKK, and your father not being allowed to vote. If I was black, I would be mighty pissed off. Not to mention the fact that the educational system has failed generations of blacks and other minorities. No sense of identity, a history of bloody and vicious oppression, and lack of general education. But then this is all “PC”, so maybe you shouldn’t even read it. Its just liberal bullshit and propaganda.

Screw your name thing. Your sense of history is pathetic, and my few brain cells are better than your two, one of which apparently has the other in a headlock. [/quote]

Thanks for your review of history that we all know very well. Why? Because Ass-holes like you won’t let it go. Tell me how bringing this shit up over and over and over again helps blacks? Does that get them more educated? Better jobs? No! All it does it continue to division and keep the races separated.

Yes, a lot of shit happened to them. It also happened to Israel (and keeps happening to them) and almost every race you can think of. So we bring it up and try to appease their anger for something that didn’t even happen to them personally. So we give them special names and special privileges, which only ensures that they will never be accepted as equal, because they aren’t treated equal.

So tell me smart-ass, when does it stop? When can the blacks just move on and focus on now? When can they be seen as equal? How many years do we have to wait? Another 100, 300, 1,000?

Those that are smart (like Pro X) have already moved on and are living their life on their own terms and not based on something that happened years ago.

Time to stop living in the past and let the blacks have a chance at a decent life.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
In an American context, being proud to be white means being happy you’re not black.

Nicely put, Irish. Leave it to a man from Jersey to get to the heart of the debate.[/quote]

I would be just as proud of myself if i was black actually. Im proud of being an american, a texan, white, all of these labels that i can own for myself. It just so happens that i am white and proud of it. Get over it man.

Given my need to be a super-partriot at times im sure i would be black panther guy or something if i was black. I guess it depends on your perspective but i dont hate or look down on anybody.

Anybody have any positive things that are going on w/ minority groups today? I dont care about history lets hear some current stuff.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
snipeout wrote:
Why is white pride such a shame while black pride is something so proud. People are so worried about offending other races that they supress their feelings about their own.

Truth!

Being of German descent I have often thought that this is the case.

Italian Americans, Irish Americans etc are very proud of their heritage.

German Americans have suppressed a lot of traditions and heritage because of WWI and WWII.

Cities even changed the spelling of their names because of the wars. Pittsburgh is the only “burg” in the country that ket the “h” at the end. The rest of the cities dropped the “h” because it looked too German.

[/quote]

You must be mistaken. No one experiences any racism except for blacks, haven’t you been paying attention?

Bro, I have been called a Nazi.

My point is that; is it really racism, or is it just ass-holes? At some point we have to realize that people will treat us poorly for no apparent reason and their motivation for doing so is meaningless.

Just like “hate crimes”. If I kill someone because I want money to buy drugs or just because I don’t like the way they look, that person is still dead. Motivation matters little.

By the way, as a hypothetical - is someone who is half black eligible for the title African-American? What if they are a quarter black?

Let anyone think that this is a purely academic exercise, this is exactly the kind of problem we face when we compartmentalize based on race - for quotas, set asides, ethnic scholarships, affirmative actions, etc.

If a given state contract has a set aside of 20% for minority-owned companies, is a person who is one quarter black eligible for the contract? Should they be?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
By the way, as a hypothetical - is someone who is half black eligible for the title African-American? What if they are a quarter black?

Let anyone think that this is a purely academic exercise, this is exactly the kind of problem we face when we compartmentalize based on race - for quotas, set asides, ethnic scholarships, affirmative actions, etc.

If a given state contract has a set aside of 20% for minority-owned companies, is a person who is one quarter black eligible for the contract? Should they be?
[/quote]

The reason is that the people will look black if they have half black/ half white genes because the genes are more likely to be dominant. Even though the hypothetical person may consider themselves to be bi-racial if they look black then people will consider them to be black. If they are considered black then they should have that advantage as far as government re-distribution programs go. I mean the premise of these programs is that black people are disadvantaged and you dont want a large group of people dragging down the american economy. The more prosperous minorities are the more prosperous our country will be.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Don’t talk to me about logic. To say that you can subjegate a race for 400 years and have them come out like nothing happened is alot more illogical. But then of course, thinking like that is just “PC”.

Its not fucking political correctness. Have you read any history books? Of course, no one alive now was brought here on a slave ship. No shit. But do you have any idea what that does to a race? Look at Ireland. They still suffer the effects of a thousand years of English oppression. This oppression, the lack of self worth and degradation they suffered is the reason that they gravitated towards the things they did, namely (and infamously) booze and violence. But then I guess that is “PC” to, and that country was just a waste of space until the computer boom in the 90s.

Just because blacks were “freed” in 1865, does not mean that they were free. What does it mean to you? I can probably trace my identity back to Ireland and Italy, and back even farther. Blacks don’t have that. They have no last name. They have no “heritage” (meaning your descendants leading directly back to another country) to be proud of, as they were taken. What does that do to people? To a race? When you are brought here by slave ships. “Freed”, only to suffer at the hands of a notoriously racist south, the KKK, Jim Crow laws, and a Democratic, anti-progressive south until the big paradigm shift of the 60s?

Sure there wasn’t slavery. But hey asshole, when did the Civil Rights movement happen? “Hundreds upon hundreds of years” ago? There are people that remember that.

“Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act of 1965 on August 6. The 1965 Act suspended poll taxes, literacy tests and other voter tests and authorized federal supervision of voter registration in states and individual voting districts where such tests were being used. African-Americans who had been barred from registering to vote finally had an alternative to the courts. If voting discrimination occurred, the 1965 Act authorized the Attorney General of the United States to send federal examiners to replace local registrars. Johnson reportedly stated to associates that signing the bill had lost the South for the Democratic Party for the foreseeable future.”

In a fucking democracy, it took blacks ten fucking years to be assured the right to vote. Depending on how old you are, you might remember this, or your father. What does that say about our democracy?

I don’t think you have any idea what it is to have your great-grandfather be a slave, your grandfather fearing the KKK, and your father not being allowed to vote. If I was black, I would be mighty pissed off. Not to mention the fact that the educational system has failed generations of blacks and other minorities. No sense of identity, a history of bloody and vicious oppression, and lack of general education. But then this is all “PC”, so maybe you shouldn’t even read it. Its just liberal bullshit and propaganda.

Screw your name thing. Your sense of history is pathetic, and my few brain cells are better than your two, one of which apparently has the other in a headlock.

Thanks for your review of history that we all know very well. Why? Because Ass-holes like you won’t let it go. Tell me how bringing this shit up over and over and over again helps blacks? Does that get them more educated? Better jobs? No! All it does it continue to division and keep the races separated.

Yes, a lot of shit happened to them. It also happened to Israel (and keeps happening to them) and almost every race you can think of. So we bring it up and try to appease their anger for something that didn’t even happen to them personally. So we give them special names and special privileges, which only ensures that they will never be accepted as equal, because they aren’t treated equal.

So tell me smart-ass, when does it stop? When can the blacks just move on and focus on now? When can they be seen as equal? How many years do we have to wait? Another 100, 300, 1,000?

Those that are smart (like Pro X) have already moved on and are living their life on their own terms and not based on something that happened years ago.

Time to stop living in the past and let the blacks have a chance at a decent life.

[/quote]

Ayyy. Once again, this is the reason I exited this thread, and now I regret that I even bothered. You are dense and unintelligent. I counter your backwards argument with facts, and you call me an asshole and say “Give blacks a chance”. You just don’t get it.

You obviously have no idea how much racism is still a part of life. I live in NJ. And there are tons of people here, some folks that I work with even, who see a black man walk into the store and say, “Look at this fuckin’ N—er.”
So don’t tell me “give blacks a chance”. You dumbass, it isn’t people like me that don’t give them a chance. it is idiots like yourself that do not even try to understand their position, and do not understand that people simply cannot be trusted to give blacks a fair shot.

Do you even understand the idea that there can be a low-lying, nearly subconcious anger that permeates an entire race? That maybe they don’t want to be a part of a system they consider oppressive? That a failed educational system not only strips them of that we could call “goals” or “ambition” and gives them a completely different take on life then your lily white ass can comprehend? Obviously not.

Stop the “Let’s get together and give blacks a chance” bullshit. You obviously know nothing about race relations, the struggle for power between not only races but economic classes. Keep your thoughtless rhetoric for other like minded idiots.

And how much do you even know about Prof. X that you are talking about him moving on? How do you know he “moved on”? You are making assumptions here that you know nothing about.

You are a retard, and once again I am done with this thread. When something intelligent come back up on this thread, then maybe I’ll give it a shot again.

And Zap, i think the dropping of the “g” was a WWII thing wasn’t it? Its the same reason we call them hot dogs instead of frankfurters. Don’t forget a side of freedom fries. In times of war we do stupid things. I bet half the people in the country still put there Christmas trees up in the 40s though, which is derived from German tradition. Ironic huh.

[quote]lumbernac wrote:
The fact that african-americans have been abused by southerners in the US is besides the point. The africans SOLD us the slaves b/c they were from a different tribe or nation. I beleive that anthropologists classify people into 3 races: negroids ( black people possibly including arabs and aborignee ) caucasoid ( white people including hispanics and possibly indians) and asian. As the earlier poster said that the blacks were basically the Europeans muscle , which is not true. Slavery by eropean people towards blacks happened on a large scale only in the southern US. Even if that were true it shouldn’t take anything away from caucasoid’s accomplishments- of which i am proud of. Thanks for listening[/quote]

it
s not "asians’…it’s mongloid…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
Prof X: i agree w/ that totally. Its just that modern white people are supposed to feel apologetic towards the horrible injustices that we have put on blacks in the past. That is supposed to keep us from being proud of the many accomplishments that i have previously posted on. I refuse to not feel proud for being white.

Who has asked you to not feel proud of being white? There is a huge difference between a group of people who had everything about them stripped away attempting to regain that…and a group of people who have always been in the sucessful majority in this country loudly proclaiming “pride” just for everyone to see. Do you not see a difference? I think, in time, none of this will be necessary at all.[/quote]

like the Chinese, when they came to America?

[quote]harris447 wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
Ok thats great X. Regardless of all this, the whites have accomplished much much more. Even now Africa is a horrible continet. Its ruled by dictators, has famines horrible wars won by machetes and hutus killing and raping their brothers. Look at Europe, people like visiting there , its a civilized place if you dont count the recent terrorism. I do agree that blacks have accomplished less in America but that is from our country’s horrible racial practices of slavery and jim crow.

However i did like that one about the open heart surgury - thats quite a feat!

Africa hasn’t accomplished much in the past century for one reason and one reason alone, shithead: what white people did to it. Period.

Y’know what else white people invented? Grammar and punctuation. It kind of undercuts your “we’re much much better than you” argument when the white guy writes like a retard and the black guy (who’s a medical doctor, I seem to recall) gets Strunk and White’s approval.

So, really: knock off the white power bullshit, please.
[/quote]

how many white people are in Africa, and how many have been dictators? then re-think that explanation…

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
I just have one question for all “African-Americans” on this forum; what the hell does “African-American” mean? “_-American" used to mean that the person was born in another country and then came to the US. Now we have all these blacks, who have never even been to Africa, stating that they are African-American. Why? What the hell is wrong with just being American? Should every other race go back to their country of racial origin and have a hyphenated name as well? So let’s all be "-American” instead of just Americans because evidentially being American is just not good enough anymore.

Let’s stop the division people. If you are American, then be proud of it and be just American!
[/quote]

African-American does nothing to explain race-it’s explains origins. there are white, black and Arabic people from Africa, among others. Hell, Dave Matthews and Charize Theron are both “African Americans”…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Here are some more for you, lumbernac…because we haven’t accomplished all that much:

Frederick M. Jones, air conditioning unit-July 12, 1949

Benjamin Banneker, almanac-Approx 1791

Granville T. Woods, auto cut-off switch-January 1, 1839

G. Cook, auto fishing devise-May 30, 1899

Richard Spikes, automatic gear shift-February 28, 1932

W.H. Richardson, baby buggy-June 18, 1899

L.R. Johnson, bicycle frame-October 10, 1899

A.P. Ashbourne, biscuit cutter-November 30, 1875

Charles Drew, blood plasma bag-Approx. 1945

Henry T. Sampson, cellular phone-July 6, 1971

G. T. Sampson, clothes dryer-June 6, 1862

S. R. Scratton, curtain rod-November 30, 1889

Lewis Latimer, electric lampbulb-March 21, 1882

T. Marshall, fire extinguisher-October 26, 1872

L. A. Burr, lawn mower-May 19, 1889

And my personal favorite,
George Washington Carver, peanut butter- 1896

Yes, the reason you are enjoying Peanut Butter Grow! bars right now is because of…one of those people who hasn’t accomplished all that much.

There are many more…but how is it someone in the year 2005 could look back on history and claim that “blacks haven’t accomplished all that much”? In fact, considering what we were up against, who has accomplished much more?[/quote]

not to mention, dominating sports and entertainment (well, except hockey)…

[quote]Professor X wrote:
lizard king wrote:
Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.[/quote]

no, becuase this is one of the adantages of the interent. here nobody “sees” anything…

theoritically it should be a good thing…