What's In a Name?

[quote]Vyapada wrote:
Lumbernac,

Why derive your sense of self-worth or self-respect from your lineage or the actions of others? If it helps you get through the day - that’s great.

I would rather live for today, giving some thought for tomorrow. Learning lessons from the past is important, but I think there are more useful things to take pride in than identity or another’s conduct.[/quote]

Vya, I think that undersack has proven himself a lost cause for now. When somebody pops off with “I am what I am and the forum can kiss my ass” (paraphrased there) then you are wasting your breath to try to reach him. I dig your “living in the now” mindset, though. Very zen.

If undersack wants to remain small-souled, then we have to let him. It’s not like we can force him to open his eyes. I’ll definitely make fun of him, though… that’s for damn sure.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

I think you misunderstand. The Europeans may not have created the concept (as slaves were present in the Bible with Jews being racially enslaved), however, Portugal, Spain, France and England were the ones who made this the overwhemingly powerful economic institution that it became by the 1700’s.[/quote]

It was largely a function of the rise of trade and market economics generally - the more your economy produces, the more labor you need.

This is absolute blather and completely erroneous. To take nothing away from the Egyptians, your claim the the Greeks were simply borrowing African ideas and institutions is patently false.

The Greeks adopted Egyptian numbers apparently, but the Black Athena debate has wilted away as unsupported.

And it doesn’t matter anyway - the development of Western civilization is one of ideas, not ethnicity, so why try and revise history to make sure Western history is more ‘black’?

Hell, the Greeks weren’t ‘white’ - so it doesn’t matter.

Well, you’ve gotten all your ‘noble savage’ fantasies out of the way - but how about you show evidence that the smallpox on blankets was a real phenomenon and not a conspiracy myth?

Ultimately, yes. Europeans were no strangers to agriculture and hunting.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
This is absolute blather and completely erroneous. To take nothing away from the Egyptians, your claim the the Greeks were simply borrowing African ideas and institutions is patently false.[/quote]

How is it false? The Golden Proportion was not a Greek archetectual invention. It came from Egypt. No one wrote that everything the Greeks created came from Egypt, but some of those great ideas were taken from Africa. Why try to downplay what I wrote?

[quote]
And it doesn’t matter anyway - the development of Western civilization is one of ideas, not ethnicity, so why try and revise history to make sure Western history is more ‘black’? [/quote]

Revise history? Because I wrote that the Greeks borrowed African technology or ideas? They did. Why does this hurt you at all?

[quote]
Hell, the Greeks weren’t ‘white’ - so it doesn’t matter.[/quote]

Apparently, it mattered enough for you to log on and throw a hissy fit because I wrote that the Greeks borrowed some ideas from the Egyptians. I am wondering why this is bothering you so.

[quote]
Well, you’ve gotten all your ‘noble savage’ fantasies out of the way - but how about you show evidence that the smallpox on blankets was a real phenomenon and not a conspiracy myth?[/quote]

The only documented case of smallpox blankets being given to Indians was by Captain Eucyer of the British army. Letters by General Amherst and Colonel Bouquet mentioned spreading smallpox to Indians, however, there is no documentation as to whether this was officially carried out…and there is no documentation claiming that it was never carried.

In a letter written in 1793 to Colonel Bouquet, Lord Amherst wrote, “Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them”.

Bouquet replied that he would try and use infected blankets as a means of introducing the disease among the Indians, but was worried about the effects that it would have on his own men. At least twenty-five percent or more of Bouquet’s soldiers would have been susceptible to the smallpox virus.

http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

But they were strangers to the cold winters and relied initially on the knowledge of Native Americans.

Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

[quote]lizard king wrote:
Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

[/quote]

…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Revise history? Because I wrote that the Greeks borrowed African technology or ideas? They did. Why does this hurt you at all?[/quote]

I am not particularly bothered - you just don’t need to pass off controversial theories as fact. I am sure the Greeks didn’t invent the wheel, but to suggest that Egyptian culture was essentially a Greek equivalent, which you did, is erroneous.

Hmm. The only case?

This is helping your cause how?

[quote]In a letter written in 1793 to Colonel Bouquet, Lord Amherst wrote, “Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them”.

Bouquet replied that he would try and use infected blankets as a means of introducing the disease among the Indians, but was worried about the effects that it would have on his own men. At least twenty-five percent or more of Bouquet’s soldiers would have been susceptible to the smallpox virus.

Amherst and Smallpox [/quote]

So you have no proof that such a thing was ever carried out, but you insisted it was fact.

[quote]But they were strangers to the cold winters and relied initially on the knowledge of Native Americans.
[/quote]

And Europeans has already settled Europe, which has various climates. The Indians certainly helped them, I am not suggesting they didn’t - but to think that Europeans couldn’t do it independently is a stretch.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

The only documented case of smallpox blankets being given to Indians was by Captain Eucyer of the British army.

Hmm. The only case?

Letters by General Amherst and Colonel Bouquet mentioned spreading smallpox to Indians, however, there is no documentation as to whether this was officially carried out…and there is no documentation claiming that it was never carried.

This is helping your cause how? [/quote]

Do you have a problem reading? There is a documented case of this happening and I described it for you. My guess is, acts describing outright genocide wouldn’t exactly be kept on file. They would have been marked with enough “black ink” to be unrecognizable or destroyed just as sensitive material is treated today. That doesn’t change the fact that there is a case…which is what you asked for.

[quote]
So you have no proof that such a thing was ever carried out, but you insisted it was fact.[/quote]

You are truly stretching at this point. Why don’t you let someone else take over. There are several other people on this forum who could actually carry on a decent debate.

[quote]
And Europeans has already settled Europe, which has various climates. The Indians certainly helped them, I am not suggesting they didn’t - but to think that Europeans couldn’t do it independently is a stretch.[/quote]

From a random site about Massachusetts:

When the Pilgrims first landed in Plymouth, Massachusetts in Dec. 26, 1620, it was the day after Christmas. Those who know Massachusetts winters realize that this was just about the worst time to land, with frozen land, no food, and bitter snows coming shortly. The ship had carried 102 passengers, and about half of the Pilgrims died during this first winter. Still, that even some of them survived was thanks to the native Wampanoag Indians, who met up with them soon after they landed.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
lizard king wrote:
Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.[/quote]

Quite right Professor, most people are blinded by the labels they attach. To most, I can only be a White boy and not understand. Never mind that my great grandmother was Cherokee, or that my wife and daughter have large amounts of Catawba Indian blood flowing through their veins. Labels are for those who do not wish to think. Education for everyone is the key; unfortunately, most do not wish to learn. If you’re ever in the Charlotte, NC area, let’s grab a beer, a nice dark beer of course…

[quote]lizard king wrote:
Professor X wrote:
lizard king wrote:
Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.

Quite right Professor, most people are blinded by the labels they attach. To most, I can only be a White boy and not understand. Never mind that my great grandmother was Cherokee, or that my wife and daughter have large amounts of Catawba Indian blood flowing through their veins. Labels are for those who do not wish to think. Education for everyone is the key; unfortunately, most do not wish to learn. If you’re ever in the Charlotte, NC area, let’s grab a beer, a nice dark beer of course…

[/quote]

I’ll be there…with an afro and a comb with a black fist on the end sticking out one side. You know, just so it’s easy to see me.

[quote]
I’ll be there…with an afro and a comb with a black fist on the end sticking out one side. You know, just so it’s easy to see me.[/quote]

I just spewed coffee all over my laptop!
That’s a big 10-4 Undercover Brother.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
I just have one question for all “African-Americans” on this forum; what the hell does “African-American” mean? “_-American" used to mean that the person was born in another country and then came to the US. Now we have all these blacks, who have never even been to Africa, stating that they are African-American. Why? What the hell is wrong with just being American? Should every other race go back to their country of racial origin and have a hyphenated name as well? So let’s all be "-American” instead of just Americans because evidentially being American is just not good enough anymore.

Let’s stop the division people. If you are American, then be proud of it and be just American!

You should have called this thread “Fixing the Race thing”. I’m not even going to go into the fact that they were brought here against their will, were forced into slavery for four hundred years, and subjected to massive amounts of racism for the remaining 150 after they were “freed”. That’s a real American dream, right?

Go back to high school, and take your attempts at logic with you. Never return![/quote]

Sorry sport, but no one living today was brought to the US against their will or any of those thing that happened hundreds of years ago. But regardless, that still doesn’t answer the question of the name thing.

Your political correctness sickens me. Sorry, but PC is not logic, it is just a weak ass, go along with the crowd, I’m afraid to think for my self, knee jerk response. Come back when you want to actually use those few brain cells you have.

[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
I just have one question for all “African-Americans” on this forum; what the hell does “African-American” mean? “_-American" used to mean that the person was born in another country and then came to the US. Now we have all these blacks, who have never even been to Africa, stating that they are African-American. Why? What the hell is wrong with just being American? Should every other race go back to their country of racial origin and have a hyphenated name as well? So let’s all be "-American” instead of just Americans because evidentially being American is just not good enough anymore.

Let’s stop the division people. If you are American, then be proud of it and be just American!

I almost called TSB on this one.

African Americans can be proud of being American, and proud of having African ancestry at the same time, guy.

[/quote]

That’s cool. So can we all then be “_____-American”, since we are all proud of our racial origin, even though we haven’t even been there and really know noting about it?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
lizard king wrote:
Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.[/quote]

Thats b/c your african american genes are dominant.

[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Vyapada wrote:
Lumbernac,

Why derive your sense of self-worth or self-respect from your lineage or the actions of others? If it helps you get through the day - that’s great.

I would rather live for today, giving some thought for tomorrow. Learning lessons from the past is important, but I think there are more useful things to take pride in than identity or another’s conduct.

Vya, I think that undersack has proven himself a lost cause for now. When somebody pops off with “I am what I am and the forum can kiss my ass” (paraphrased there) then you are wasting your breath to try to reach him. I dig your “living in the now” mindset, though. Very zen.

If undersack wants to remain small-souled, then we have to let him. It’s not like we can force him to open his eyes. I’ll definitely make fun of him, though… that’s for damn sure.[/quote]

This thread is crazay

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
I just have one question for all “African-Americans” on this forum; what the hell does “African-American” mean? “_-American" used to mean that the person was born in another country and then came to the US. Now we have all these blacks, who have never even been to Africa, stating that they are African-American. Why? What the hell is wrong with just being American? Should every other race go back to their country of racial origin and have a hyphenated name as well? So let’s all be "-American” instead of just Americans because evidentially being American is just not good enough anymore.

Let’s stop the division people. If you are American, then be proud of it and be just American!

You should have called this thread “Fixing the Race thing”. I’m not even going to go into the fact that they were brought here against their will, were forced into slavery for four hundred years, and subjected to massive amounts of racism for the remaining 150 after they were “freed”. That’s a real American dream, right?

Go back to high school, and take your attempts at logic with you. Never return!

Sorry sport, but no one living today was brought to the US against their will or any of those thing that happened hundreds of years ago. But regardless, that still doesn’t answer the question of the name thing.

Your political correctness sickens me. Sorry, but PC is not logic, it is just a weak ass, go along with the crowd, I’m afraid to think for my self, knee jerk response. Come back when you want to actually use those few brain cells you have.
[/quote]

Don’t talk to me about logic. To say that you can subjegate a race for 400 years and have them come out like nothing happened is alot more illogical. But then of course, thinking like that is just “PC”.

Its not fucking political correctness. Have you read any history books? Of course, no one alive now was brought here on a slave ship. No shit. But do you have any idea what that does to a race? Look at Ireland. They still suffer the effects of a thousand years of English oppression. This oppression, the lack of self worth and degradation they suffered is the reason that they gravitated towards the things they did, namely (and infamously) booze and violence. But then I guess that is “PC” to, and that country was just a waste of space until the computer boom in the 90s.

Just because blacks were “freed” in 1865, does not mean that they were free. What does it mean to you? I can probably trace my identity back to Ireland and Italy, and back even farther. Blacks don’t have that. They have no last name. They have no “heritage” (meaning your descendants leading directly back to another country) to be proud of, as they were taken. What does that do to people? To a race? When you are brought here by slave ships. “Freed”, only to suffer at the hands of a notoriously racist south, the KKK, Jim Crow laws, and a Democratic, anti-progressive south until the big paradigm shift of the 60s?

Sure there wasn’t slavery. But hey asshole, when did the Civil Rights movement happen? “Hundreds upon hundreds of years” ago? There are people that remember that.

“Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act of 1965 on August 6. The 1965 Act suspended poll taxes, literacy tests and other voter tests and authorized federal supervision of voter registration in states and individual voting districts where such tests were being used. African-Americans who had been barred from registering to vote finally had an alternative to the courts. If voting discrimination occurred, the 1965 Act authorized the Attorney General of the United States to send federal examiners to replace local registrars. Johnson reportedly stated to associates that signing the bill had lost the South for the Democratic Party for the foreseeable future.”

In a fucking democracy, it took blacks ten fucking years to be assured the right to vote. Depending on how old you are, you might remember this, or your father. What does that say about our democracy?

I don’t think you have any idea what it is to have your great-grandfather be a slave, your grandfather fearing the KKK, and your father not being allowed to vote. If I was black, I would be mighty pissed off. Not to mention the fact that the educational system has failed generations of blacks and other minorities. No sense of identity, a history of bloody and vicious oppression, and lack of general education. But then this is all “PC”, so maybe you shouldn’t even read it. Its just liberal bullshit and propaganda.

Screw your name thing. Your sense of history is pathetic, and my few brain cells are better than your two, one of which apparently has the other in a headlock.

[quote]Vyapada wrote:
Lumbernac,

Why derive your sense of self-worth or self-respect from your lineage or the actions of others? If it helps you get through the day - that’s great.

I would rather live for today, giving some thought for tomorrow. Learning lessons from the past is important, but I think there are more useful things to take pride in than identity or another’s conduct.[/quote]

Its just time to leave this thread alone…

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
lizard king wrote:
Racism sucks, racist suck. I have no problem referring to someone as African American if they prefer, but please do not refer to me as White, I’m a German-Scottish-Native American-American.

…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.

Thats b/c your african american genes are dominant.[/quote]

You…are an idiot.

[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
Vyapada wrote:
Lumbernac,

Why derive your sense of self-worth or self-respect from your lineage or the actions of others? If it helps you get through the day - that’s great.

I would rather live for today, giving some thought for tomorrow. Learning lessons from the past is important, but I think there are more useful things to take pride in than identity or another’s conduct.

Ok thats a great point. But by that logic i couldnt be proud of my family b/c they came before me and i have no part in their sucess or lack of it. Im going to return the thought back to you what is wrong with being proud of being white? Thats the only thing i’ve been trying to figure out on this thread if you do let me know[/quote]

There is no problem enjoying your heritage. I love that I am Irish. But it had nothing to do with my choosing, so being “proud” is kind of a strange word to use. I admire the Irish for keeping the fight for a millenium against the English, I love that I had a relative in the Easter Rising. “Proud” , in relation to heritage, means something different than what the word actually means. I think reverance would be a better word.

However, this is wholly different from being proud of being white. There are a million types of white people. Europe is all white. But they are not the same. Don’t tell an Irishman that he should be proud of the English because they are white too. Don’t tell a Pole that he should be proud of the Germans, because the Germans are white also. It does not make sense. This to me is what you are saying but in a European sense.

In an American context, being proud to be white means being happy you’re not black. It doesn’t really make sense at first, but in a historical context is does. This is the meaning that society has placed on the phrase. Nazi groups using slogans like, “White pride” and “White power” does not help the cause. When the oppressor flaunts his power, it is very different than the oppressed finding an identity that was lost in the throes of history. To me, this is the difference.

Personally, I have never been proud to be white. I am proud that I’m descended from the Irish and Italians. In reality it makes more sense to be proud of this than to be proud of being American (although I am, but I’m going to explain this). My irish side has been here a while, but on the Italian side I am only third generation. So it seems, logically, to make little sense to revere White Anglo Saxon Protestants who started this country, fought its wars, and, in all likelyhood hated my ancestors because they were Catholic. Of course, this is a massive generalization, but I’m trying to make my point. I am more proud of the American ideal of liberty and equality, and that my ancestors had the foresight to come here, than I am of some transplanted Englishmen starting a war against their mother country in 1776.

I am just thinking out loud here, of course. I am a writer, and this here is how I think. So don’t think that I don’t admire the Revolution, the American ideal, etc. I am just trying to link current consciousness of racial ideas to the title of being “American”. This thread came back a little now…thank God.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
…and I am an African French Native American American. It doesn’t change the fact that all everyone sees is “black”.[/quote]

Professor - is this something that bothers you? (this is truly out of curiousity) I grew up outside of US, in all white Ukraine. I do notice that I used “black” often in describing a black person while not using “white” in describing white. It changes as I spend more and more time in US…

[quote] Well you cana’t be both :

  • Proud of your ancestry
    &
  • Not-racist [/quote]

May be you should reread what I wrote. I didn’t say that it wasn’t possible to have pride without being racist.

If that is what you got out of it, you have reading comprehension problems on top of everything else – perhaps you slacked off once you thought you had everything figured out in second grade?

Pride is often used to counter ongoing and systematic discrimination which subjegates a class of people. The pride movements symbolize that it is okay to belong to some type of penalized group.

If you are white, you really don’t have anything oppressing you that needs to be countered. The world already knows it is okay to be white, by the advantages given to us simply for being so.

Racist slimeball types have been working very hard to find a way to get their thinking accepted. They are coming up with very alluring ways to describe race relations and very alluring ways to make it okay to be proud of being white and so on. The PC movement is often held up as a whipping boy for these things.

Unfortunately, there are some very intelligent and crafty people out there looking for ways to support racist thoughts and beliefs.

There are ways to have pride, as a white person, and not be racist. One way to avoid racism is not to think of people in terms of race, not to fall into the habit of trying to judge and rank races by some criteria.

There is no politically correct cabal, but there are thinking people that realize where racial comparisons lead. There are people that are sick of seeing race used to divide a population or justify hatred.

There are simply a lot of people that know that the ways of the past, with respect to differential treatment due to race, simply was wrong and needs to be discouraged.

If you can’t see this, figure out how to express yourself, and make sure that you avoid promoting racial discrimination yourself, then you are ignorant. This isn’t so much an insult as simply acknowledging that there is a lot you don’t know and understand, to the point that you are unknowingly participating in activities that promote racism.

It is not being PC to refuse to contribute to the development of racism and related attitudes in todays day and age.

I, for one, take pride in the fact that I’m not an ignorant racist asshole.