Doogie, as for your post, it is hogwash. I’m suggesting that race is something that we need to work towards being unimportant between poeple. The fact that discrimination is still prevalent makes that improbable.
If we are working to make race unimportant, how does only allowing some races to take pride in their heritage accomplish that? Doesn’t treating people differently based purely on their race, give race importance?
I don’t take any pride in my heritage. I can’t trace it back beyond my father on his side and my grandmother on her side. I don’t have guilt about the things my ancestors might have done, and I don’t take pride in what they may have done. Deep down, though, I’m glad they came out on top again and again. I think the world is a better place for it.
[/quote]
You are a dumbass. It has been explained yet you choose to ignore it. You aren’t that worried about the color of your skin because you haven’t been regularly held back or discriminated against constantly for it regardless of whatever one or two random instances you can come up with as far as “reverse discrimination”. As a whole, no one has enslaved “white people” or committed genocide for the “white race” or degraded your entire “color” for generations. It is a non-issue for you.
Where do “white people” come from? They all come from one place? The answer is no. Thusly, it makes no sense at all to be proud of “being white”. You are proud of a skin tone? If you are from England, fine. Be proud of your English heritage. If you come from Germany, fine. Be proud of your German heritage. However, you would have to be a complete moron to not understand that as a whole, black people in this country have been and still are being discriminated against. Black people originated in Africa. African American is the title that denotes those brought here anciently as slaves and were mistreated long after slavery was lifted. We can damn sure be proud of being black because originally, african americans have a common background in this country…we were brought here, enslaved and then racially mistreated for hundreds of years.
Why does this have to be explained to you? Most people who are straight from Africa are proud to be from whatever part of Africa they are from. They wouldn’t claim the title “black” in the reference of those who were ancestors of slaves in this country. Many in Africa wouldn’t claim me for being african if I showed up over there. The title has changed over years, but it means the same…those whose ancestors were brought here and mistreated for centuries. We are proud of being black because of what it represents…overcoming every obstacle designed to hold us back. Your inability to comprehend this makes you simply look stupid. It is sad that you can’t see this. I’m laughing at you…really.
Where do “white people” come from? They all come from one place? The answer is no. Thusly, it makes no sense at all to be proud of “being white”. You are proud of a skin tone? If you are from England, fine. Be proud of your English heritage. If you come from Germany, fine. Be proud of your German heritage.
good point, that is why (for you all keeping score) that a saint patrick’s day parade is an acceptable celebration of irish heritage(and a pretty good excuse to get shitfaced), and octoberfest is acceptable to celebrate german heritage(and a good excuse to put on shorts and dance with other men), but a “white-power” demonstration is asking for trouble.
African Americans have a common background in this country…we were brought here, enslaved and then racially mistreated for hundreds of years.
very true. which make the experience of being an African American truly unique. it will be difficult for anyone to understand this who is not African American.
i wouldn’t expect you to understand how my experience as being raised by a dirt poor illiterate Cuban immigrant and a dirt poor illiterate white person and all my family and their ancestors have had to overcome and myself has contributed to my world view and core values.
why try to understand the other person when it is much more fun to fight? god knows i enjoy a good internet brawl, LOL.
i think that white people might have all originated in one place or area, we came from black people and mabey a few got out to europe or the middle east and were separated from the hot african sun…
That means a lot coming from someone who made the following dumbass arguments.
I’ve never said anything about reverse discrimination.
Why is being a victim of anything a point of pride? If you come back and say it isn’t, then what the hell was the point of the above paragraph?
Doesn’t it make more sense that “white people” should be proud that they have never been enslaved or succumbed to genocide?
You make it sound like “Black pride” is based only on “We all come from the same place”. Africa is a huge place, with many different tribes that hate each other. It’s not some glorious, unified place with one culture.
White people generally came from Europe, did they not. Is it alright to have European pride?
If you had any reading comprehension, you’d know I think it is dumb for anyone to have “pride” in their heritage. It’s devisive, and only serves to alienate.
However, I think it is even dumber to say some people can be proud of their heritage and others can’t.
Why do white people have to narrow it down to a country?
Who said they aren’t?
James Brown said, “I’m Black and I’m Proud”. Is it ok for him to be proud of his skintone?
Why is that a point of pride?
Your skintone represents overcoming every obstacle designed to hold you back?
Weird. My skintone represents a lack of pigment.
I don’t have any clue as to what my heritage is. It is therefore a generic “white heritage”. You are saying I would be wrong if I wanted to take pride in that(which I don’t, of course).
I understand that 99.9999999999% of douchebags who envoke “white pride” are in fact racist assholes. That doesn’t change the principle that it is wrong to have different standards for people based on their skintone or where their great, great grandparents were born. If you can’t admit that, then I’m laughing at you. Really.
I?m Scottish and we?ve been starved and killed by the English over the years. Irish, too. Indians were slaughtered by muslims many years ago. Poles were slaughtered by the Germans. Tutsis and Hutus in Africa, not to mention Swazis and Zulus.
My somewhat scattered point is, every race and religion has suffered at the hand of another, including black on black genocide, including, let?s remember, direct black involvement in the slave trade.
The US government pours more than a few Marshall plans into Africa in aid since the 50s. And more in aid in the US through federal funding.
My question is, as you appear to embrace the concept of using an admittedly detestable point in history as a crutch, how much more time do you need? After all, we dropped two atomic bombs on one race Japan 40 odd years ago.
[quote]redswingline wrote:
My question is, as you appear to embrace the concept of using an admittedly detestable point in history as a crutch, how much more time do you need? After all, we dropped two atomic bombs on one race Japan 40 odd years ago.
[/quote]
What point in history did I use? The Tuskeegee experiment just happened in the late 70’s. Black men still have a hard time getting a cab in New York. So again, what point in history did I use that indicated to you that the issue was over and done with? I don’t use anything as a crutch. This was about why blacks can take pride in being black and I gave credit to every other group for taking pride in where they came from. So what is your issue? What crutch did I present? Do you even know what you are speaking of? It sure doesn’t seem that way.
If there wasn’t such a thing as a racist white movement co-opting phrases such as “white power” and “white pride” I would probably be less concerned about the issue. However, recognizing that those groups exist and that some are echoing their statements, and that people in traditionally mistreated groups are going to simply see you as supporting their mistreatment, perhaps it makes sense to not do so.
It is not about forcing you not to do something, it is about you recognizing the incredible stupidity of such statements and deciding not to make them. If you would rather sound like ignorant racist low life, that is certainly your choice. Continue to have at it. Nobody can stop you.
There is no issue with “treating people differently”. I am not advocating that racial mistreatment is allowed by one group and not another. There has been no systematic racial discrimination against white people. There is no insult or injury that is being rubbed in the faces of white people when minority groups attempt to rally themselves and withstand the mistreatment they continue to see even today.
Everybody should have at least some awareness of social issues and conduct themselves accordingly. When it is pointed out how something being done or said is incredibly offensive to a minority or racial group, it isn’t just politically correct blather, there are issues involved that may be worth considering.
It is about being a worthwhile human being. One that understands some of the issues present in his or her own society and acts with at least a minimal level of empathy and compassion. I know some of this sounds like touchy feely bullshit, but it is actually part of being human, y’know, to have some compassion for your fellow man.
Having pride in overcoming and withstanding hardship is not meant to fix the problem. It is meant to allow a downtrodden sector of society to not feel so downtrodden. Is anyone really so clueless that you don’t understand this concept?
Honestly, nobody is trying to lay a guilt trip anywhere, you don’t have to dodge the bullet of accepting blame for mistakes of the past or present as long as you aren’t actively performing or supporting the same attitudes today.
The very fact that this is so hard to understand, when it is in fact so bloody simple, just goes to show the prevailing racial attitudes in society today.
I know. I lived in the Dallas area for a while. I heard about all about “them” and how they were “different” and so forth. I heard blatant racial prejudices against both black people and hispanics. The US is divided and the way forward is not by blaming everyone else for all of the problems.
There is no way forward without the development of some mutual understanding of the issues faced by each group. If you think it is time for the US to get past racial issues, then you need to stop the combative attitude and stop mischaracterizing all the problems in society as being because of the minority groups.
When the minority groups stop feeling like they are under attack, they may stop circling the wagons and banding together for strength.
Yes, I know, I said two points. I just wanted to reiterate that I’m not talking about accepting blame or feeling guilt. I’m talking about understanding the past and accepting that because of it there are difficult issues to be faced today. We can’t just wish the past away or sidestep it because it was the fault of someone else.
If you want to pretend you are civilized then you need to learn enough about the past to have some understanding of the needs and issues of your fellow citizens. This is true of everyone who pretends to be a decent human being, regardless of sex, religion, race or any other common prejudical attribute.
Talk to each other. Listen to each other. Develop an understanding. You don’t have to fight everything and everyone who doesn’t think and look exactly like you. Find some common ground and build from there. Been to the gym lately?
PROX, You didn?t use any point in history indicating discrimination is over and done with. My point is, many races/cultures have experienced hardships (ie outright death) other than slavery; such as Poland only 40 years ago losing 6.5 million people; The Tuskagee experiment you reference comprised of experiments over 40 years and involved 399 black men over that time. Your point about government doing wrong is valid (and one many conservatives fully believe why government should be constrained); Tuskagee was deplorable; but pinning your cries of societal and institutional racism on 399 people over 40 years is patently absurd.
Further to your tired hoary clich? about black men obtaining cabs in NYC; well, then a lot of black cab drivers (and others of colour, for that matter) have a lot to answer for. In his recent essay in The New Republic, Glenn Loury explains that ?there are roughly eight times as many whites as blacks; and there are about six times as many violent criminals per capita among blacks as among whites."
Our fundamental viewpoints differ. Where you see ingrained racism, I see experience, particularly among NYC cab drivers as per the above statistic, if indeed what you say is true.
On to more of your previous response. I was born in the Caribbean, and buddy, if you there there is one united mass that is ?black? and that sees themselves the same, I have land in New Orleans to sell you. Woe betide you assuming a black person from this island was Jamaican. You are wilfully ignoring the conflicts in the black community between those with Caribbean and those with African heritage.
The fact of the matter is that most whites and blacks now accept living, working, shopping, playing, side by side?every interracial interaction (perhaps save) marriage. Institutional racism that you charge doesn?t exist in the manner it did a generation ago.
It happened, it was abysmal; other cultures have endured outright death and starvation and rebounded; get over it.
This argument is pointless, I am a super sayin and thus am far more advanced than any humans. Therefore you should all bow before my feet now and cower before my greatness. It’s true, it’s true, just watch cartoon network, it says so there.
[quote]redswingline wrote:
PROX, You didn?t use any point in history indicating discrimination is over and done with. My point is, many races/cultures have experienced hardships (ie outright death) other than slavery; such as Poland only 40 years ago losing 6.5 million people; The Tuskagee experiment you reference comprised of experiments over 40 years and involved 399 black men over that time. Your point about government doing wrong is valid (and one many conservatives fully believe why government should be constrained); Tuskagee was deplorable; but pinning your cries of societal and institutional racism on 399 people over 40 years is patently absurd.
[/quote]
I think what is more than absurd is the fact that you are attempting to act as if the racism that occured over the last century was so minor that the Tuskeegee experiment is the greatest factor. That was simply one that the government has admitted to. That doesn’t account for the rest of the acts committed by the society as a whole. The damage done which took place over more than a century AFTER slavery isn’t forgotten nor should it be. It isn’t like slavery ended and next thing you know, Blacks were enrolling in Yale the next year.
Beyond that, you have shown where your head is. Arguing or debating with you anymore on the subject would simply be a waste of my time. However, I will say that while Poland “losing” millions of people as you wrote would very much be a “hardship”, that didn’t involve actively destroying the esteem of an entire race of people and preventing their advancement for decades. To ignore this factor is childish on your part.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I have two multiracial daughters. they are a beautiful blend of black, Spanish(Cuban) and Caucasian genes. i think it is important that i teach them to be proud of ALL there ancestry, not just what is politically correct at the time.
their beautiful black mother can teach them about their African American heritage, and i can hopefully inform them of the rest.
though i agree that western European civilization has been in the drivers seat for much of recent history, say the last 1000 or so years, and that can be a point of pride, i think it is important to note that history goes back a lot farther than that, and the world has had periods of different cultures and “races” dare i say, taking a leading role in the world. the mesopotamians day came and went, the Egypt, the Chinese, Romans, Mongolians, moors, blah blah blah. America’s time will come and go too, at least as far as us being a economical and military superpower.
and i think that THAT is the underlying cause of all the political division in our country today. some are willing to concede that we should go into a socialist type elegant decline like western Europe, and the other side wants us to continue to be aggressive in trying to secure our spot at the top, for now anyway. [/quote]
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Why are you guys still arguing on this thread? I have said all I can say about racism, and it has been to no avail, as those who are arguing clearly have no common sense. So why keep giving this thread life? Let it die and fade, like the rest of the threads we have encountered that make no sense…[/quote]
The only obvious racism on this thread is from those who say some races can be proud of their race and others can’t.
Again, I acknowledge that 99.999999% of people who claim “white pride” are racist douchebags. The others are probably just morons.
I also acknowledge that Blacks in this country have (and do) face discrimination.
I just fail to see how pretending that it is OK to have a dual standard based on race is going to solve any problems.
Are Hispanics allowed to have pride in their culture?
I know what Cesar Chavez and Hector P. Garcia think about the subject, but I’m wondering what you two think.
What about Chinese-Americans whose ancestors were brought here to work (and die) on the railroads?
What about white people whose ancestors came here as indentured servants?
I’m having problems following your arbitrary rules.
(I understand Prof. X probably won’t respond because his response to redswingline makes it pretty clear he doesn’t actually want to discuss the matter. He only wants people to agree with him.)
Doogie, stop playing dumb, it is really not very useful.
Everyone can have pride Doogie, go back and read a bit. The issue is the purpose and expression of the pride.
If there was a single gray cell in your head you’d go back and see that nobody is suggesting that people can’t choose what to be proud about.
However, expressing pride in certain things exemplifies callous disregard for others. For example, I’m sure there are some out there who would proclaim pride for genocidal events, terrorist actions and so forth.
Of course everyone can be proud of whatever they choose. However, surely you aren’t really stupid enough to label as racist those that suggest mimicking the actions or statements of racist individuals is an unappropriate activity for the general public to emulate?
Good luck with that stance.
Anything else you would care to mischaracterize in an attempt to make it inappropriate to combat racism?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Doogie, stop playing dumb, it is really not very useful.
Everyone can have pride Doogie, go back and read a bit. The issue is the purpose and expression of the pride.[/quote]
This thread was started with the question, “What the hell is wrong with just being American?”
Why is it wrong for some people to take pride in saying “We won!”, but OK for some people to take pride in saying “Our own people sold us into slavery, so we lost!”
Do you really think no one should ever have their feelings hurt?
Tell me, Vroom, which of these quotes is indicating that being proud of being white isn’t wrong?
[quote]harris447:
“Could also be that the very phrase “White Pride” scares the living shit out of anyone not from northern Europe.”
"You’re right: white culture has accomplished much much more than any other.
Such as:
The worldwide institution of slavery.
The invention of germ warfare. (Blankets with smallpox, great idea.)
Atomic warfare.
The plague.
(Because brilliant white Europeans thought it was a good idea to throw their waste out the window.)
The Crusades.
The Inquisition.
The Holocaust.
SUV’s
Michael Bolton.
The SAT’s
World Wars I, II, and probably III.
NASCAR
Poll taxes.
Colored bathrooms and water fountains."
[/quote]
That one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
that one?
That one?
Best of all,
Apparently it wasn’t all, as Vroom added:
Wait, still not all:
that one? Which of those quotes said it was alright to have “white pride”? Again, I think any pride base on heritage is dumb, but not as dumb as only allowing SOME races to have pride in their heritage.
[quote]
Of course everyone can be proud of whatever they choose. However, surely you aren’t really stupid enough to label as racist those that suggest mimicking the actions or statements of racist individuals is an unappropriate activity for the general public to emulate?[/quote]
I think anyone claiming pride in their race is mimicking the actions or statements of racist individuals–white, black, asian, whatever. So yes, I suggest that mimicking the actions of racists is “unappropriate”, regardless of your race.
[quote]
Anything else you would care to mischaracterize in an attempt to make it inappropriate to combat racism?
Truly pathetic.[/quote]
You are the one arguing that people should be treated/judged/dealt with differently based on their race. Not me. I think anyone who claims pride in their race is stupid.