I would approach them alone, intimidating them with my big muscles and knowledge that this sort of situation never escalates to violence.
…But if it did id squash them with my previously mentioned big muscles.
Audiogarden:
I defer my previous answer to yours.
I showed your avatar to my Glock 30 and the clip dropped out and the round in the pipe self ejected. It didn’t want to have nothin to do with ya.
How does i get muscles like that?
LB
[quote]LBramble wrote:
Audiogarden:
I defer my previous answer to yours.
I showed your avatar to my Glock 30 and the clip dropped out and the round in the pipe self ejected. It didn’t want to have nothin to do with ya.
How does i get muscles like that?
LB[/quote]
How do you get muscles like this?
Well start off by never lifting with free-weights. Hammer strength EVERYTHING. Its basically the same thing.
Also, never go to the gym without a superhero t-shirt with the sleeves cut off.
Lastly, chest must be done at a 3:1 ratio to back. Same with biceps to triceps, and front delts to rear delts. No one ever sees your backside anyway.
I am going to offer this up as a point about the stakes about “confronting”.
In the linked story the victim was an off duty police officer and a Marine. The story states that he was acting in his capacity as a police officer to question the “youths” involved.
[quote]From article above:
A state district court grand jury indicted Juan Antonio Gonzalez on Tuesday in connection with the brutal beating of Officer Jonathan Molina, 29, on Sept. 25 on a Central El Paso street. Molina died nine days after the attack…
According to complaint affidavits filed by homicide detectives, Molina saw a young man use a key to scratch his silver Pontiac Grand Prix…Molina got into his car, drove to where the teenagers were and parked at the curb in the 4100 block of Trowbridge Drive to confront the boys about the vandalism. The affidavits state Molina identified himself as a police officer and was acting in his capacity as a police officer even though he was not in uniform. Sometime during the confrontation, Molina asked a bystander to call 911.
While Molina was talking, Gonzalez “struck the victim on the face and then grabbed his legs and threw him to the concrete. (Gonzalez) then got on top of the victim and continued to punch him in the face”
[/quote]
First, RIP officer Molina.
Second, the above happened to a man who was in fact trained to deal with exactly the scenario of “confronting” individuals. He was killed by a 17 year old.
There aren’t any really easy answers about what is the “best” course.
Train hard. Use your best judgement.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I am going to offer this up as a point about the stakes about “confronting”.
In the linked story the victim was an off duty police officer and a Marine. The story states that he was acting in his capacity as a police officer to question the “youths” involved.
[quote]From article above:
A state district court grand jury indicted Juan Antonio Gonzalez on Tuesday in connection with the brutal beating of Officer Jonathan Molina, 29, on Sept. 25 on a Central El Paso street. Molina died nine days after the attack…
According to complaint affidavits filed by homicide detectives, Molina saw a young man use a key to scratch his silver Pontiac Grand Prix…Molina got into his car, drove to where the teenagers were and parked at the curb in the 4100 block of Trowbridge Drive to confront the boys about the vandalism. The affidavits state Molina identified himself as a police officer and was acting in his capacity as a police officer even though he was not in uniform. Sometime during the confrontation, Molina asked a bystander to call 911.
While Molina was talking, Gonzalez “struck the victim on the face and then grabbed his legs and threw him to the concrete. (Gonzalez) then got on top of the victim and continued to punch him in the face”
[/quote]
First, RIP officer Molina.
Second, the above happened to a man who was in fact trained to deal with exactly the scenario of “confronting” individuals. He was killed by a 17 year old.
There aren’t any really easy answers about what is the “best” course.
Train hard. Use your best judgement.
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
Damn, RIP Brother.
Don’t forget Alex Gong, from Wiki:
Gong was a world champion of ISKA World Muay Thai, Junior middleweight class. He won his world title in 1999. He defended his title on August 5, 2000. Gong also held a 2-0-0 record in K-1 including a win over Duane Ludwig.
Death
On August 3, 2003, after a hit and run driver crashed into Gong’s parked car in the Fairtex Gym parking lot in San Francisco, Gong pursued the suspect on foot. Gong caught up and confronted the suspect, who was still in his car at a nearby intersection. Witnesses say the suspect then shot Gong at point blank and fled in his vehicle. Gong was pronounced dead at the scene.
On August 3, 2003, a man named as a “person of interest” in the Alex Gong murder was confronted at a hotel, and after a lengthy standoff with police, shot himself in the head. No one has officially been charged in the murder to this day.
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I am going to offer this up as a point about the stakes about “confronting”.
In the linked story the victim was an off duty police officer and a Marine. The story states that he was acting in his capacity as a police officer to question the “youths” involved.
[quote]From article above:
A state district court grand jury indicted Juan Antonio Gonzalez on Tuesday in connection with the brutal beating of Officer Jonathan Molina, 29, on Sept. 25 on a Central El Paso street. Molina died nine days after the attack…
According to complaint affidavits filed by homicide detectives, Molina saw a young man use a key to scratch his silver Pontiac Grand Prix…Molina got into his car, drove to where the teenagers were and parked at the curb in the 4100 block of Trowbridge Drive to confront the boys about the vandalism. The affidavits state Molina identified himself as a police officer and was acting in his capacity as a police officer even though he was not in uniform. Sometime during the confrontation, Molina asked a bystander to call 911.
While Molina was talking, Gonzalez “struck the victim on the face and then grabbed his legs and threw him to the concrete. (Gonzalez) then got on top of the victim and continued to punch him in the face”
[/quote]
First, RIP officer Molina.
Second, the above happened to a man who was in fact trained to deal with exactly the scenario of “confronting” individuals. He was killed by a 17 year old.
There aren’t any really easy answers about what is the “best” course.
Train hard. Use your best judgement.
Regards,
Robert A
[/quote]
X2: Train hard. Use your best judgement. Everyone is armed until proved otherwise.
X2: Rip in peace brother, Damn…too much death lately on the LEO/Military side.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Ok, I want to ask the knowledgeable people here in the combat forums a question. This came up in an unrelated thread and I want to see what you all think the best course of actions are.
Situation: You are walking towards home at night and alone. You live towards the end of a street (ie. not at a residential “hub” intersection). From a distance you see a group of 5 males you clearly do not know and have no reason to know parked in your driveway, blocking your car in. They are standing very near your front porch in such a way that you could not reach your porch without getting them to move. They are talking/joking in loud voices, and there is no party at either of your neighbors’ houses. You are unarmed.
What do you do and why?[/quote]
i know this is an old thread, but i’ve been MIA for a while, so thought i’d post a bit…
any scenario where i’m unarmed is quite unlikely… with that being said, i’ll play along with the rules. i guess i left my gun and knife at home when i went for a jog (although, in today’s world that’s apparently a bad idea)…
like other people said, i’d call my wife (if she was at home and see if she’s okay)… if she’s okay but has not idea why those dudes are there, then i’d call for backup (as i’m a cop and live in the town where i work). based off that information, there is a possibility of people coming to do me harm, because i’ve arrested them or a family member… and i come from an area where you don’t go on somebody else’s property without permission.
on the approach, i would try to identify any concealed accomplices, make/model/plate of vehicle, description, etc.
i would call both of my neighbors and see if they were expecting anyone…if they are not then i’d precede on.
at this point, i presume they’re there to cause me harm… if my wife’s not there, then i’m apt to hang back for the police. if she is there, then i’m prolly not gonna be able to wait…
as i confront them, i would be general and somewhat authoritative… something like “can i help you guys” or “is there a problem here?”
if they’re at the wrong place (like another poster had happen), then this would resolve the situation without hard feelings. if they lie and say this is their place, then i know their intent (burglary, at least). if they’re immediately confrontation then i know their intent (assault, at least). i would deal with these situations as they developed…
anyway, if my wife wasn’t home or i was single, i would feel comfortable backing off and letting the police handle it. but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
Stepped away from this thread for a while, but I’m glad to see we got a decent actual discussion going with various opinions. Also I lol’ed hard at throwing your “skittles” at them, and then squashing them with previously mentioned big muscles.
Correct indeed gentlemen!
Also, Robert you are indeed correct that the term “profiling” is inevitably misused and to much greater discord than should occur when it is used properly in conversation.
Bushmaster–seen your recent posts, and glad to have you back on site for a while mate! Well thought out post from you here again, as usual!
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
anyway, if my wife wasn’t home or i was single, i would feel comfortable backing off and letting the police handle it. but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
You wouldn’t feel like you were unnecessarily escalating the situation and potentially putting your wife in danger by bringing the situation to a head?
If they are just standing there, why would go up and potentially aggravate them? If they make a move to your house, by all means confront them because they have forced your hand.
But if you have called the police, and they are just standing around, you only risk making things turn bad by confronting them.
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
anyway, if my wife wasn’t home or i was single, i would feel comfortable backing off and letting the police handle it. but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
You wouldn’t feel like you were unnecessarily escalating the situation and potentially putting your wife in danger by bringing the situation to a head?
If they are just standing there, why would go up and potentially aggravate them? If they make a move to your house, by all means confront them because they have forced your hand.
But if you have called the police, and they are just standing around, you only risk making things turn bad by confronting them.
[/quote]
because my wife is disabled, and she can’t really defend herself without a firearm. if i contact her and she’s fine, then i would feel better waiting… but if not, then logic be damned, i’m gonna go make sure she’s okay.
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
anyway, if my wife wasn’t home or i was single, i would feel comfortable backing off and letting the police handle it. but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
You wouldn’t feel like you were unnecessarily escalating the situation and potentially putting your wife in danger by bringing the situation to a head?
If they are just standing there, why would go up and potentially aggravate them? If they make a move to your house, by all means confront them because they have forced your hand.
But if you have called the police, and they are just standing around, you only risk making things turn bad by confronting them.
[/quote]
more importantly, if it’s my home, then why do you think that me approaching people on MY property is escalating the situation? i’m not causing the problem, they are… they don’t live there, they didn’t pay for it.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
because my wife is disabled, and she can’t really defend herself without a firearm. if i contact her and she’s fine, then i would feel better waiting… but if not, then logic be damned, i’m gonna go make sure she’s okay.[/quote]
Well you said if she was at home you wouldn’t be waiting for the police. Which is a bit different to if she is fine. Like I said, if you see them actually approaching the house as opposed to hanging around then they have forced your hand. So no arguments on that.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
more importantly, if it’s my home, then why do you think that me approaching people on MY property is escalating the situation? i’m not causing the problem, they are… they don’t live there, they didn’t pay for it.
[/quote]
Because of the potential for things to get out of hand. Yes they are causing the problem, but will that make you feel better when it turns into a bloody mess cos someone has been shot or kicked into a coma?
No doubt they are the ones in the wrong by being on your property. But what if they are just looking for trouble and are hoping someone will come and give them grief about what they are doing? By going up and confronting five guys sitting in your driveway, when you could just wait for the police to ask them to move on, is asking for trouble. Especially if you have a somewhat helpless wife just a few metres away, who up until this point didn’t even know there was anyone out there.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
anyway, if my wife wasn’t home or i was single, i would feel comfortable backing off and letting the police handle it. but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
You wouldn’t feel like you were unnecessarily escalating the situation and potentially putting your wife in danger by bringing the situation to a head?
If they are just standing there, why would go up and potentially aggravate them? If they make a move to your house, by all means confront them because they have forced your hand.
But if you have called the police, and they are just standing around, you only risk making things turn bad by confronting them.
[/quote]
more importantly, if it’s my home, then why do you think that me approaching people on MY property is escalating the situation? i’m not causing the problem, they are… they don’t live there, they didn’t pay for it.
[/quote]
To cycobushmaster,
First glad to see you back.
Second, thank you for (presumably) making sure your wife has access to firearms and thus is able to defend herself and those she cares about. I mean that with sincerity.
To Kirks,
We should probably keep in mind that cycobushmaster IS the police and that may attach certain obligations and procedures to how he handles things.
I am also going to state that a good many GOOD people find themselves behind the power curve when dealing with criminal violence because they try to attach “reasonableness” to individuals whose motives don’t fit most folks definition of reasonable. I am not saying that you are necessarily going down that road, but you might be near enough to see it from where you are standing.
A lot of folk will try to “de-escalate” when it cannot be done. If we are talking about a situation with a lot of unknowns, and Aragon’s scenario is fucking loaded with unknowns, than how we fill in the gaps is going to be very important. One of the decent “rules” for assessing threats is “one of these is not like the other” or “abnormal warrants attention”.
Think about how you would handle someone asking what you are doing outside their house? Even if they were a bit aggressive you might be inclined to do all or some of the following:
-apologize
-state your purpose/clarify what you are there for (waiting for someone, looking for a party)
-find out why you being there is a problem
etc.
“Confronting” a group that isn’t doing anything wrong probably isn’t going to be all that confrontational. “No one with that name lives here.” “No solicitations.” “Wrong house, please leave.” On the other hand the exact type of individuals who are going to want to go hot are the type some folks may not feel good about letting amble around their house, especially if there is someone inside they feel compelled to protect.
Engaging the group shouldn’t be confrontational, or escalation unless we decide to crank the assholeness up to 11. I take what cycobushmaster wrote as recognizing that the EXACT theoretical group that poses such a real threat that calling police/back up/friends in to deal with them is the proper choice is also a group that poses a real enough threat to possibly spur action if others are in their path. Yes this sucks.
Some quick and dirty advice for navigating this problem is that we all know exactly what “normal” is for finding out you accidently went where you weren’t supposed to or scared the shit out of someone you didn’t mean to. If the group manufactures outrage or gets aggressive instead of doing the “Oops” routine that is damn important information. The risk they might pose to others, for whom we would fight/bleed for/die for/bleed other out to protect, is a reasonable motive for taking risks to ourselves to find out that information.
Just my opinion. I am not trying to speak for, nor am I qualified to speak for, cycobushmaster.
In case none of that was helpful; they now make string cheese with little pieces of jalapeno pepper in it. It is brilliant.
Regards,
Robert A
Your own past personal experiences, training and outcomes of those past experiences, work environment, etc…will also determine your actions and what your response will be. In the States, I know that the probability of the vehicle containing suicide bombers or an assassination team is remote, but, I would start there and work my way down to the “wrong address” scenario. Someone else may start with the " parked in the wrong drive way" and work their way up the scale of conflict. IMO, better to start in condition red, than have your head up your ass.
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
Robert A
This just seems very confrontational to me.
Obviously the area you live in will go a long way to dictating your approach and the result of that approach. But in this hypothetical land, this attitude (especially coming from a cop) seems to be a bit over the top. And he is far from alone in this thread.
Cell phone " Yeah Honey they are out there again. Release the dogs, and then get in the bath tube. Oh yeah you are so thoughtful, yeah better get 2-3 ambulances". " Oh and the two vans down the street don’t worry dear I am always prepared".
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
Robert A
This just seems very confrontational to me.
Obviously the area you live in will go a long way to dictating your approach and the result of that approach. But in this hypothetical land, this attitude (especially coming from a cop) seems to be a bit over the top. And he is far from alone in this thread.[/quote]
We might be reading different things into his posts, and presumably the posts of others. I did not take anything he wrote to be advocating going to guns as a first choice. He is recognizing that depending on the exact situation (are there people in the house that are in jeopardy) than this could be a case of “When seconds count, the police are just minutes away.” Being a police officer also means he is aware of situations were good folk have been on their own until help could arrive.
I am also going to state the following:
1.) I do not consider calling the police to be in any way less “confrontational” than engaging the party myself. The rightness of the situation is determined by it being my property, not theirs. Using the police, as an agent of the State, to use force or threat of force to compel said party to leave is not morally different than doing the same myself. It is probably more prudent, in that the police not only bring more asskicking with them than I can fit in my trousers(the gun is only because I can’t fit a cop in my front pocket) but have qualified immunity and indemnification against criminal liability. So I am not saying not to call them and ask that they assume the risks involved. I just feel that the “confrontation” level is the same, even if my level of immediate jeopardy is lower.
2.) A lot of guesswork is going to go into choosing to engage. Are we certain the crowd is up to no good? If so, is that “no good” going to damage something or someone we would not have damaged? Would we prefer to take the risk ourselves? If the 5 guys are obviously going to do something heinous than stay the fuck back. Unless of course the heinous act is going to befall someone we love. Than, perhaps we might have a different goal. Instead of letting others handle it eventually, we might opt to make ourselves the center of the groups attention. Not because we like our chances if we do. But because we do not want to walk the earth knowing we didn’t. There are people in this world that mean so very much to me that I will absolutely “run what I brung.” Goals being; Do as much as I am able. As well as I am able. For as long as I am still able.
Several of the more frequent/established posters who have hinted they would be willing to go this route have mentioned wives or children as being the definitive factors. I noted that was part of cycobushmaster’s post as well.
3.)My personal position is “not enough info”. Doing nothing, calling the fuzz, calling friends, or having to go “game on” immediately may all be the right answer or the wrong one based on facts not supplied in the OP. What I do not hold is that talking/confronting an innocent party is going to somehow provoke violence. On the other hand a group that is just looking for an excuse or a target, and is already physically located on your property, may well be too much a danger to deal with by waiting. All we can do is use every resource available. Time, reinforcements, information, etc. to determine and take the best course of action. In some cases it might mean using the police as an intermediary. In others we may need to posse up. Still others might best be served by just going for another walk. Hopefully we don’t find ourselves in a situation where we face making a choice between living with what the group did to another, or not living at all.
Each of us came into this world screaming our heads off and covered in some one else’s blood. Perhaps we should count ourselves lucky if we have people in our lives whom we love so much that the prospect of leaving it the same way to keep them safe holds no fear for us.
Train hard. Stay safe.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
anyway, if my wife wasn’t home or i was single, i would feel comfortable backing off and letting the police handle it. but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
You wouldn’t feel like you were unnecessarily escalating the situation and potentially putting your wife in danger by bringing the situation to a head?
If they are just standing there, why would go up and potentially aggravate them? If they make a move to your house, by all means confront them because they have forced your hand.
But if you have called the police, and they are just standing around, you only risk making things turn bad by confronting them.
[/quote]
more importantly, if it’s my home, then why do you think that me approaching people on MY property is escalating the situation? i’m not causing the problem, they are… they don’t live there, they didn’t pay for it.
[/quote]
To cycobushmaster,
First glad to see you back.
Second, thank you for (presumably) making sure your wife has access to firearms and thus is able to defend herself and those she cares about. I mean that with sincerity.
To Kirks,
We should probably keep in mind that cycobushmaster IS the police and that may attach certain obligations and procedures to how he handles things.
I am also going to state that a good many GOOD people find themselves behind the power curve when dealing with criminal violence because they try to attach “reasonableness” to individuals whose motives don’t fit most folks definition of reasonable. I am not saying that you are necessarily going down that road, but you might be near enough to see it from where you are standing.
A lot of folk will try to “de-escalate” when it cannot be done. If we are talking about a situation with a lot of unknowns, and Aragon’s scenario is fucking loaded with unknowns, than how we fill in the gaps is going to be very important. One of the decent “rules” for assessing threats is “one of these is not like the other” or “abnormal warrants attention”.
Think about how you would handle someone asking what you are doing outside their house? Even if they were a bit aggressive you might be inclined to do all or some of the following:
-apologize
-state your purpose/clarify what you are there for (waiting for someone, looking for a party)
-find out why you being there is a problem
etc.
“Confronting” a group that isn’t doing anything wrong probably isn’t going to be all that confrontational. “No one with that name lives here.” “No solicitations.” “Wrong house, please leave.” On the other hand the exact type of individuals who are going to want to go hot are the type some folks may not feel good about letting amble around their house, especially if there is someone inside they feel compelled to protect.
Engaging the group shouldn’t be confrontational, or escalation unless we decide to crank the assholeness up to 11. I take what cycobushmaster wrote as recognizing that the EXACT theoretical group that poses such a real threat that calling police/back up/friends in to deal with them is the proper choice is also a group that poses a real enough threat to possibly spur action if others are in their path. Yes this sucks.
Some quick and dirty advice for navigating this problem is that we all know exactly what “normal” is for finding out you accidently went where you weren’t supposed to or scared the shit out of someone you didn’t mean to. If the group manufactures outrage or gets aggressive instead of doing the “Oops” routine that is damn important information. The risk they might pose to others, for whom we would fight/bleed for/die for/bleed other out to protect, is a reasonable motive for taking risks to ourselves to find out that information.
Just my opinion. I am not trying to speak for, nor am I qualified to speak for, cycobushmaster.
In case none of that was helpful; they now make string cheese with little pieces of jalapeno pepper in it. It is brilliant.
Regards,
Robert A [/quote]
Robert A,
you are far more well spoken (and/or written) than I… this sums up what I was trying to say much better than I could…
[quote]Kirks wrote:
[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
but if my wife was home, i would be quite concerned about her welfare… and it’s my home, not theirs. i’m not suggesting shooting everyone that steps on your porch, but as a cop, i’m constantly amazed how many criminals get BS sentences who literally invade someone else’s property…
[/quote]
Robert A
This just seems very confrontational to me.
Obviously the area you live in will go a long way to dictating your approach and the result of that approach. But in this hypothetical land, this attitude (especially coming from a cop) seems to be a bit over the top. And he is far from alone in this thread.[/quote]
what is confrontational about protecting your family and property? i’m not walking around picking fights here… i come home and some knuckleheads are “squatting” on my property…
now, dealing with unreasonable people is my job… while i might not be as good at reading people as a salesman with $1 million/year commission, i am pretty good at seeing what people are doing, and what they intend on doing based off their actions.
AT BEST, someone hanging out on your property is simply lost… at worst, a myriad of bad options.
now i’m not gonna puff up and challenge them all to a fist fight (i typically handle things like this pretty well with much more subtle intimidation), but i am also willing to risk my life for my wife’s (just like i do as a police officer and soldier)… maybe that’s my “issue” or motivation… mitigating risk in bad situations is simply part of my everyday life.
i’m not the toughest guy in my town, let alone the world… but i don’t consider myself much of a man if i’m not willing to defend my woman.