[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:
Robert A,
you are far more well spoken (and/or written) than I… this sums up what I was trying to say much better than I could…[/quote]
Thanks, but I thought you were pretty clear in your posts.
[quote]idaho wrote:
Your own past personal experiences, training and outcomes of those past experiences, work environment, etc…will also determine your actions and what your response will be. In the States, I know that the probability of the vehicle containing suicide bombers or an assassination team is remote, but, I would start there and work my way down to the “wrong address” scenario. Someone else may start with the " parked in the wrong drive way" and work their way up the scale of conflict. IMO, better to start in condition red, than have your head up your ass. [/quote]
This I am a VERY big believer in. There is not an enviable alternative in my mind (of course, in general the situation is not enviable in the first place) because working your way up the scale leads to exactly the problem of ascribing “reasonableness” to people that do not operate there, which Robert A just described; this is also something that people do ALL THE TIME. This is a good way to get killed and/or hurt extremely badly.
“Nathan Rubin died because he got brave. Not the sustained kind of brave that wins you a medal in a war or something, but the split second kind of blurting that gets you killed on the streets…a soft suburban guy like him was never going to be in command of a situation like that. His fitness was health club tone. It counted for nothing. His tight abdominals ruptured under the first savage blow.”
^^^^ This is one of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard of normal people’s reactions contrasted with the way things should be done. It’s a pulp-novel, unapologetically, and a lot of fiction that I’m sure would frustrate vets everywhere… But this is a brilliantly truthful telling of most peoples’ grasp on real violence.
Most people are fucking awful at violence.
Now granted most thugs are also bad at violence–or at least the decisive kind of violence that people used to combat are around–but the WILL to use violence is much stronger with them as a general thing, and the fuse is also shorter. I would rather work down the scale, and insulting-ness be damned.
If they’re really reasonable then as much as they’d be pissed if I let cops handle it–while staying out of sight letting them take the brunt–or walked up and asked them to leave or something it still boils down to that “post speeding ticket” sort of frustration, and nobody is harmed. This is my preferred solution–unless as many of you have mentioned there is a dependent in trouble/scared.
That changes the situation and bets are off because of people I love. As Robert noted it all depends on data data data.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Most people are fucking awful at violence.
Now granted most thugs are also bad at violence–or at least the decisive kind of violence that people used to combat are around–but the WILL to use violence is much stronger with them as a general thing, and the fuse is also shorter.
[/quote]
THIS. And in spite of me being a pacifist, the fact that I’m one of the people with “health club tone” pisses me off recently.
[quote]flipya4it wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
[quote]flipya4it wrote:
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
[quote]Bauber wrote:
Call a close friend to bring me a firearm and confront them. Ask why the fuck they are parked in my driveway on private property.[/quote]
Big mistake. Why escalate things? Why make it a potential life and death (yours and/or theirs and/or your family, friends and neighbors)issue by bringing a gun? A gun is a physical solution to a mental problem. Swallow your pride. Check your ego. Call the cops and save yourself a lot of potential heartache and headaches. Why bother having cops and paying taxes? Ask yourself what Sun Tzu would do. [/quote]
have to agree.
if youre gonna take an in your face response,get ready to have to move house.
what makes us all vulnerable and exposed is our familes.
even a gun isn’t an ‘equaliser’ if someone comes back after you won the initial showdown,while youre at work or wherever,and shoots up your house or worse(imo)knocks on your door.[/quote]
You guys watch too many movies.
[/quote]
i’m in a ‘non gun’ country and houses are being shot up here each day as part of ongoing feuds.
if you disrespect someone,point a gun at them on your own property then the first thing you have to remember is that they immediately know where you live and youre not going to be home all the time.
when they want to square things up or save face in front of their mates-theyre coming back to your house.
might sound dramatic but it would be my first concern when considering the scenario posted.[/quote]
If this was happening so regularly and I knew this, I would waste every single one of them and put 2 more rounds in each once on the ground for good measure. Then they can come back to my house as, 1. Zombies, or 2. Ghosts.
Disrespect someone on my property? Has this what the pussified world has come to today? Now, you might live in another country with a different culture etc. My point being is I would rather be dead than live in fear and not be able to protect what is mine.
How I was raised you don’t go fuck with other people’s property and family. Family involved one side is leaving in a bodybag.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]idaho wrote:
Your own past personal experiences, training and outcomes of those past experiences, work environment, etc…will also determine your actions and what your response will be. In the States, I know that the probability of the vehicle containing suicide bombers or an assassination team is remote, but, I would start there and work my way down to the “wrong address” scenario. Someone else may start with the " parked in the wrong drive way" and work their way up the scale of conflict. IMO, better to start in condition red, than have your head up your ass. [/quote]
This I am a VERY big believer in. There is not an enviable alternative in my mind (of course, in general the situation is not enviable in the first place) because working your way up the scale leads to exactly the problem of ascribing “reasonableness” to people that do not operate there, which Robert A just described; this is also something that people do ALL THE TIME. This is a good way to get killed and/or hurt extremely badly.
“Nathan Rubin died because he got brave. Not the sustained kind of brave that wins you a medal in a war or something, but the split second kind of blurting that gets you killed on the streets…a soft suburban guy like him was never going to be in command of a situation like that. His fitness was health club tone. It counted for nothing. His tight abdominals ruptured under the first savage blow.”
^^^^ This is one of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard of normal people’s reactions contrasted with the way things should be done. It’s a pulp-novel, unapologetically, and a lot of fiction that I’m sure would frustrate vets everywhere… But this is a brilliantly truthful telling of most peoples’ grasp on real violence.
Most people are fucking awful at violence.
Now granted most thugs are also bad at violence–or at least the decisive kind of violence that people used to combat are around–but the WILL to use violence is much stronger with them as a general thing, and the fuse is also shorter. I would rather work down the scale, and insulting-ness be damned.
If they’re really reasonable then as much as they’d be pissed if I let cops handle it–while staying out of sight letting them take the brunt–or walked up and asked them to leave or something it still boils down to that “post speeding ticket” sort of frustration, and nobody is harmed. This is my preferred solution–unless as many of you have mentioned there is a dependent in trouble/scared.
That changes the situation and bets are off because of people I love. As Robert noted it all depends on data data data.[/quote]
This is a very good point, and one that I would like to expand on, briefly.
The reason, to my mind, that most people are very bad at violence, is that they react to the situation in front of them rather than making decisions based on a pre-determined set of principles.
The reason I believe I have won out when it’s mattered has nothing to do with skill (although I don’t think being a half decent boxer, and a fit bloke has done any harm). As I see it, the reason I’ve been able to win in some bad circumstances is as a result of a few informed decisions that are already made in my head, far away from the moment where the shit hits the fan. It’s all very well to say ‘noone fucks with my family’, but I don’t think most people who say it have thought it through, or what it could mean for them. I know, because I have accepted it as the case, that I will die or spend the rest of my life in prison, and accept all the fear, danger, and shower rape (and that isn’t me being funny), before I let anyone harm a hair on the head of my kid brother. I will endure all of that without complaint AND WILL ACCEPT IT AS THE REALITY AND LIKELY OUTCOME OF ENTERING A SITUATION WHERE VIOLENCE IS THREATENED TOWARDS HIM. And that is the thing. Aragorn points out that someone ‘got tough for a moment’, and it cost them their life. That’s what happens when the words you say set you down a path that you haven’t reconciled yourself to, and generally it is not a reconciliation that can be made in the moment. There must be absolute clarity surrounding the situation, so that when you threaten 3 blokes with a shard of glass that you will bleed them dry and spend the rest of your life in prison for it, YOU YOURSELF fucking well know you mean it. Conviction like that is its own kind of crazy, and can be very intimidating, because to those who know violence, it can’t be faked. It also gives you the resolve to see anything through that needs doing to the end, whatever that end may be.
If you don’t have this clarity, and purpose behind your action, then you’ve already lost if anything goes down. At that point your only good option is to run away, or give someone what they want. It came as a big surprise to a lot of my mates that when I was confronted by a group of local toughs trying to nick my stuff, I just handed it over, without a moment’s hesitation. But again, the decision I’ve made in my head far from the situation is that I’m not going to die, or even get put in hospital, for the sake of hanging onto a wallet or phone. If I’d tried to fight at that point, I would have lost badly, because my head wouldn’t have been in the fight. However, if they’d made it impossible for me to then leave with my health intact, while they were trying to ‘hurt’ me, I would have been trying to pull their guts out through their throats, and that shift in willingness to use extreme violence as a first course of action, rather than working up to it, would have gone a long way towards equalising the difference in numbers.
Rant over
[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]idaho wrote:
Your own past personal experiences, training and outcomes of those past experiences, work environment, etc…will also determine your actions and what your response will be. In the States, I know that the probability of the vehicle containing suicide bombers or an assassination team is remote, but, I would start there and work my way down to the “wrong address” scenario. Someone else may start with the " parked in the wrong drive way" and work their way up the scale of conflict. IMO, better to start in condition red, than have your head up your ass. [/quote]
This I am a VERY big believer in. There is not an enviable alternative in my mind (of course, in general the situation is not enviable in the first place) because working your way up the scale leads to exactly the problem of ascribing “reasonableness” to people that do not operate there, which Robert A just described; this is also something that people do ALL THE TIME. This is a good way to get killed and/or hurt extremely badly.
“Nathan Rubin died because he got brave. Not the sustained kind of brave that wins you a medal in a war or something, but the split second kind of blurting that gets you killed on the streets…a soft suburban guy like him was never going to be in command of a situation like that. His fitness was health club tone. It counted for nothing. His tight abdominals ruptured under the first savage blow.”
^^^^ This is one of the best descriptions I’ve ever heard of normal people’s reactions contrasted with the way things should be done. It’s a pulp-novel, unapologetically, and a lot of fiction that I’m sure would frustrate vets everywhere… But this is a brilliantly truthful telling of most peoples’ grasp on real violence.
Most people are fucking awful at violence.
Now granted most thugs are also bad at violence–or at least the decisive kind of violence that people used to combat are around–but the WILL to use violence is much stronger with them as a general thing, and the fuse is also shorter. I would rather work down the scale, and insulting-ness be damned.
If they’re really reasonable then as much as they’d be pissed if I let cops handle it–while staying out of sight letting them take the brunt–or walked up and asked them to leave or something it still boils down to that “post speeding ticket” sort of frustration, and nobody is harmed. This is my preferred solution–unless as many of you have mentioned there is a dependent in trouble/scared.
That changes the situation and bets are off because of people I love. As Robert noted it all depends on data data data.[/quote]
This is a very good point, and one that I would like to expand on, briefly.
The reason, to my mind, that most people are very bad at violence, is that they react to the situation in front of them rather than making decisions based on a pre-determined set of principles.
The reason I believe I have won out when it’s mattered has nothing to do with skill (although I don’t think being a half decent boxer, and a fit bloke has done any harm). As I see it, the reason I’ve been able to win in some bad circumstances is as a result of a few informed decisions that are already made in my head, far away from the moment where the shit hits the fan. It’s all very well to say ‘noone fucks with my family’, but I don’t think most people who say it have thought it through, or what it could mean for them. I know, because I have accepted it as the case, that I will die or spend the rest of my life in prison, and accept all the fear, danger, and shower rape (and that isn’t me being funny), before I let anyone harm a hair on the head of my kid brother. I will endure all of that without complaint AND WILL ACCEPT IT AS THE REALITY AND LIKELY OUTCOME OF ENTERING A SITUATION WHERE VIOLENCE IS THREATENED TOWARDS HIM. And that is the thing. Aragorn points out that someone ‘got tough for a moment’, and it cost them their life. That’s what happens when the words you say set you down a path that you haven’t reconciled yourself to, and generally it is not a reconciliation that can be made in the moment. There must be absolute clarity surrounding the situation, so that when you threaten 3 blokes with a shard of glass that you will bleed them dry and spend the rest of your life in prison for it, YOU YOURSELF fucking well know you mean it. Conviction like that is its own kind of crazy, and can be very intimidating, because to those who know violence, it can’t be faked. It also gives you the resolve to see anything through that needs doing to the end, whatever that end may be.
If you don’t have this clarity, and purpose behind your action, then you’ve already lost if anything goes down. At that point your only good option is to run away, or give someone what they want. It came as a big surprise to a lot of my mates that when I was confronted by a group of local toughs trying to nick my stuff, I just handed it over, without a moment’s hesitation. But again, the decision I’ve made in my head far from the situation is that I’m not going to die, or even get put in hospital, for the sake of hanging onto a wallet or phone. If I’d tried to fight at that point, I would have lost badly, because my head wouldn’t have been in the fight. However, if they’d made it impossible for me to then leave with my health intact, while they were trying to ‘hurt’ me, I would have been trying to pull their guts out through their throats, and that shift in willingness to use extreme violence as a first course of action, rather than working up to it, would have gone a long way towards equalising the difference in numbers.
Rant over
[/quote]
And it was an excellent rant, well spoken:). Your “combat mindset” and what you have already decided what you are willing to do in a given situation, has already placed you ahead of the game. I know, that for myself, I carry a “mental quiver full of situational arrows”, ready to go if that situation happens. Good Post, LB.
Fantastic posts both LB and idaho. That is what it takes. Kelly McCann talks a lot about crossing the mental threshold of violence first (you can see part of his principles in a youtube video on “indexing”) in the tactical sense. He’s dead on. What he would tell you though is exactly what both of you have said–it’s not just a tactical decision about when or how to escalate, mentally or otherwise. It is also a strategic mindset, and a pre-determined, pre-made decision about what you will and will not tolerate, and what you will and will not risk or accept consequentially for that line in the sand.
It is only when you make the principled agreement with yourself in advance that you can look at what you see–it helps push emotional, momentary bravery out of the way and also allows you to analyze a situation. You have to KNOW what you are risking, and accept that. If you don’t know what you are risking, and/or you don’t accept the potential consequences of that risk, then you are effectively in “reaction mode” like LB has explained. This is exactly what you should NEVER be in, because it will lead to you being dead or in the hospital uselessly.
There are times, and I absolutely love the way Robert put this, where you absolutely should run what you brung “Not because we like our chances if we do. But because we do not want to walk the earth knowing we didn’t.” This is the definition of a principled decision applied in advance, and it allows a man to think clearly when he needs to, and to meet whatever fate he has with integrity and honor, which should be all of our goals no matter what mistakes we may end up making along the way. Obviously there are times you have to make a snap call on reflex–but the advance decision allows you to see both what is really at stake, and whether it justifies your going “all in” with the chips. It makes your reflexes that much better not because you are physically quicker, but because the only decision left is “does this meet my betting standards”, and that is a yes/no question. There’s nothing left to consider before action, which hamstrings people.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
Fantastic posts both LB and idaho. That is what it takes. Kelly McCann talks a lot about crossing the mental threshold of violence first (you can see part of his principles in a youtube video on “indexing”) in the tactical sense. He’s dead on. What he would tell you though is exactly what both of you have said–it’s not just a tactical decision about when or how to escalate, mentally or otherwise. It is also a strategic mindset, and a pre-determined, pre-made decision about what you will and will not tolerate, and what you will and will not risk or accept consequentially for that line in the sand.
It is only when you make the principled agreement with yourself in advance that you can look at what you see–it helps push emotional, momentary bravery out of the way and also allows you to analyze a situation. You have to KNOW what you are risking, and accept that. If you don’t know what you are risking, and/or you don’t accept the potential consequences of that risk, then you are effectively in “reaction mode” like LB has explained. This is exactly what you should NEVER be in, because it will lead to you being dead or in the hospital uselessly.
There are times, and I absolutely love the way Robert put this, where you absolutely should run what you brung “Not because we like our chances if we do. But because we do not want to walk the earth knowing we didn’t.” This is the definition of a principled decision applied in advance, and it allows a man to think clearly when he needs to, and to meet whatever fate he has with integrity and honor, which should be all of our goals no matter what mistakes we may end up making along the way. Obviously there are times you have to make a snap call on reflex–but the advance decision allows you to see both what is really at stake, and whether it justifies your going “all in” with the chips. It makes your reflexes that much better not because you are physically quicker, but because the only decision left is “does this meet my betting standards”, and that is a yes/no question. There’s nothing left to consider before action, which hamstrings people.[/quote]
Aragon,
Really well thought out and I totally agree with you. The ability to always be tactically aware, to pre-plan, (instantly if need be) a course of action, will raise the odds on surviving a situation, whether than means running away, or making the decision of using lethal force, but, those decisions need to be “seen” before they occur, or you will hestiate at the moment of truth.
now, I know this is a little esoteric , but, I have taken the liberty of posting a comment I made in the Handgun Grip Thread. I think training yourself to “see” things before they happen, to the best of your ability, will allow you to either “make the shot” or “make the right decision” when danger is present. Ok, what do I mean? I use the same principle in shooting as i do walking through a international airport. A part of my mind is always looking for escape routes, cover positions, abandoned backpacks, and, yes, i profile people like a motherfucker. Somebody sets off my radar and I make adjustments. Same walking a city street, mind always “seeing” the same escape routes, cover, groups of people, locations for cover and return fire, dead-end alleys, etc…this is a totally subconcious action on my part, but, at the same time, I am already making “decisions” on my course of action. This method of “seeing” works the same in any location from Algiers to NYC.
I know, thats as clear as mud, but they is no difference (IMHO) from “seeing a shot” and “seeing a threat” before it happens. Just food for thought.
"A perspective on training and a different suggestion: They have a saying in the southern part of the United States that relates to this comment, its called “going out on a limb with this one” Well, I will probably open myself up to some ridicule with this one, but, here goes. If you have basically mastered the fundamentals of shooting: slight alignment, sight picture, trigger squeeze, and you are still shooting like crap, then you have a focus problem. All accurate shooters have a laser like focus, able to concentrate on the target and “willing” the bullet into the kill zone.
If you are having trouble focusing, and, you have exhausted all avenues, try this: all my life, since early childhood, I have trained in Traditional Archery, which is the shooting the Recurve bow or the Longbow (not a compound, machine bow!) In fact, where I go, I carry a short take down recurve with 5 take down aluminum arrows. Since I work in places with lots of sand bags and earth berms, target back stops are not a problem. I ususally shoot an average of 30 times a day, every day. I shoot by the “instinctial method”, which is my right eye is the sight, my brain is the target computer, and by back muscles provide the power. Think about shooting a sling shot as a kid, how did you aim?
shooting a bow has taught me the ability to focus on the target, to allow my brain to “see” the shot before its happens and I use this technique with everything. now, I am not going “Zen” on you , but, I am firmly convinced that the ability to “see” how something is going to happen in your mind, will allow your training and form to take over during a stress situation. When I train MT, I “see” the kick or punch landing before i throw it, when I practice Kali, I see the arc of the stick or knife before I block or attack.
In archery, I “see” the flight of the arrow before it leaves the bow and in shooting, i "see " the path i want the bullet to take, that is why, I dont “look down the barrel at the sights” I look at my target with my eyes and the target computer( brain) “sees the shot” and raise the front sight until it is level with my “computer” and fire. Traditional archery is a skill that will develop this “awareness” unlike no other. When I am shooting a handgun, my form is everything, just like with the bow, I dont really worry any more about a proper grip, the handle of the bow (riser) or the grip of the gun fits into the web of my primary hand, not a death grip, but firm, I “see” my shot before it happens and just “allow” it to happen…I know, sounds like crap, but, believe me, if you want to take your shooting to the next level, you have to train your mind focus, no matter what method you use.
everyday you should use your mind to guage distance and “see” yourself doing everything before your do it. going to open that door, see the path of your hand and how it gets there. Imagine every movenment and then try to follow that same path…sparring with a guy tonight? see your right hand hitting his cheek bone, shooting on the range tomorrow? stand at the 25 yard line, raise your primary hand and “make the shots” before ever loading the magazine. “see” everything you do, start pointing at objects around your living space, using your index finger, imagine a bullet or arrow striking dead center. Just some thoughts."