I am wondering what supplements make sense when on TRT; as so many supplements are geared/marketed to improved T and lowered E etc.
Lets not go into vitamins, fish oils and all of that main street stuff. I take a lot of those things.
What makes sense when on test, arimidex and HCG? I lift moderately with good results and take 45-90 grams of whey shake per day. My BF is around 15%. I am old(er) but have a young wife. ;}
Looking for more energy and libido.
I think a young wife is pretty much the only supplement you need. That and a box of kleenex.
[quote]KSman wrote:
What makes sense when on test, arimidex and HCG? I lift moderately with good results and take 45-90 grams of whey shake per day. My BF is around 15%. I am old(er) but have a young wife. ;}
Looking for more energy and libido.[/quote]
Well more energy and libido give it time how long have you been on TRT. Me 8 months and libido is no problem. I would NOT use adex etc on TRT unless its needed. I dont need it I am able to stay HIGH n ormal and my E is well in check remember E is not the devil and we need it its essential.
HCG sure the boys do shrink if it bother you I dont use it. May sometime.
I like Spike, and Power Drive. also the above thing you said like fish oils and nailing a solid diet is HUGE at helpoing with energy etc. You cant out train or out medicate a crappy diet.
Alpha Male can actually help as well in booting you libido while On TRT and keeping E and SHBG in check might try it.
What are your test coming back like?? the E the free T etc??
How about your GH levels.
First thing Id try would Be well diet but as for supps Power Drive and Spike.
Phill
I think I remember TC saying he still uses Alpha Male while on HRT.
It makes sense too, considering if one has hCG, that Alpha Male would help even boost ones t even higher, given that with hCG, the testes are active and normal even on HRT.
Me personally Im not changing anything.
Flameout
ZMA (I use it for sleep as much as anything)
REZ-V (I use it for health more so than E/TEST anyways)
Grow!
CREATINE
[quote]Phill wrote:
I like Spike, and Power Drive.
[/quote]
Did you start these after TRT? If so what effects were there?
HG as seem via IGF-1 is low end. After 2 months of T, it went lower. Not going on GH because of costs and the tests are otherwise then a total waste. But we have those results for a base line. Docs in KS are really restricted on scripting HGH.
[quote]Phill wrote:
KSman wrote:
What makes sense when on test, arimidex and HCG? I lift moderately with good results and take 45-90 grams of whey shake per day. My BF is around 15%. I am old(er) but have a young wife. ;}
Looking for more energy and libido.
Well more energy and libido give it time how long have you been on TRT. Me 8 months and libido is no problem. I would NOT use adex etc on TRT unless its needed. I dont need it I am able to stay HIGH n ormal and my E is well in check remember E is not the devil and we need it its essential.
HCG sure the boys do shrink if it bother you I dont use it. May sometime.
I like Spike, and Power Drive. also the above thing you said like fish oils and nailing a solid diet is HUGE at helpoing with energy etc. You cant out train or out medicate a crappy diet.
Alpha Male can actually help as well in booting you libido while On TRT and keeping E and SHBG in check might try it.
What are your test coming back like?? the E the free T etc??
How about your GH levels.
First thing Id try would Be well diet but as for supps Power Drive and Spike.
Phill
[/quote]
Phil, you should look into hCG. A year ago it was relatively unheard of. Its pretty much a staple now in all HRT programs.
[quote]Phill wrote:
I would NOT use adex etc on TRT unless its needed. I dont need it I am able to stay HIGH n ormal and my E is well in check remember E is not the devil and we need it its essential.
Phill
[/quote]
Thats probably true for some people on moderate doses of test only, who had very low pre-existing levels(like you did)
Throw in hCG(like Ksman did) and your going to have some major estrogen conversion going on, and adex is needed.
Some people(like me, dammit!) have estrogen issues just because, and without a doubt need adex. Mine is already at the top end(47, 10-50 lab range) and you can pretty much sprinkle test on me and its going to go over.
[quote]KSman wrote:
Phill wrote:
I like Spike, and Power Drive.
Did you start these after TRT? If so what effects were there?
HG as seem via IGF-1 is low end. After 2 months of T, it went lower. Not going on GH because of costs and the tests are otherwise then a total waste. But we have those results for a base line. Docs in KS are really restricted on scripting HGH.[/quote]
Um no had used prior but man what they did then was keep me living each day I was in a BAD way. my T was not just low for years but in the basement. HIGHEST I tested in 7 tests was a 70 most in the 40 range VERY VERY low.
Now I use them Spike for workouts and when I need a kick in the ass and Im flying high. Power Drive daily its just a damn fine feel good supp.
I here you on thne GH I need to get mine tested to see even where it is Im pretty sure its prob screwed as seemingly all my profiles were but Im feeling a lot better then I did and seemingly better daily.
Where in KS are you man??
Phill
[quote]T-Nick wrote:
Phill wrote:
I would NOT use adex etc on TRT unless its needed. I dont need it I am able to stay HIGH n ormal and my E is well in check remember E is not the devil and we need it its essential.
Phill
Thats probably true for some people on moderate doses of test only, who had very low pre-existing levels(like you did)
Throw in hCG(like Ksman did) and your going to have some major estrogen conversion going on, and adex is needed.
Some people(like me, dammit!) have estrogen issues just because, and without a doubt need adex. Mine is already at the top end(47, 10-50 lab range) and you can pretty much sprinkle test on me and its going to go over.[/quote]
LOL love the sprinkle test on me analogy had me rolling. Yhea but if I can get by OK sans HCG then why add it then add adex or another AI. hell wheres it ends My E now comes back at the low teens level with my T being NICE and high teetering on or just overboard.
Ill look into it though thanks for the suggestion.
Phill
I think HCG sucks balls (haha).
I currently use it as a monotherapy and my levels are all over the place. Some days I can feel them up way high. With that comes the estrogen. I get bloates and pissy, however my workouts become very productive. It also sucks having to keep that shit cold. I am going on androgel or test E on Dec 19 when I see my doc.
Another drawback to HCG is my balls are to big now. .
For supps I use the standard stuff
Creatine
Protein Powder (Metabolic Drive and Dynamatoze elite whey)
Caff free Spike
Fish Oil
Greens+
I also have a load of BCAA and Glutamine that I am trying to use up
[quote]keaster wrote:
I think HCG sucks balls (haha).
I currently use it as a monotherapy and my levels are all over the place. Some days I can feel them up way high. With that comes the estrogen. I get bloates and pissy, however my workouts become very productive. It also sucks having to keep that shit cold. I am going on androgel or test E on Dec 19 when I see my doc.
Another drawback to HCG is my balls are to big now. .
For supps I use the standard stuff
Creatine
Protein Powder (Metabolic Drive and Dynamatoze elite whey)
Caff free Spike
Fish Oil
Greens+
I also have a load of BCAA and Glutamine that I am trying to use up[/quote]
Dam. What IDIOT doctor is letting you use hCG without an anti - E? hCG is well known for its armotization and its pretty much standard to use it with adex or aromisin.
What were your preexisting t-levels? I find it strange you were given standalone hCG. Usually if anything is given standalone its androgel. hCG is given when someone goes on a derivative of testosterone to keep the balls from going by-by.
[quote]Phill wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
Phill wrote:
LOL love the sprinkle test on me analogy had me rolling. Yhea but if I can get by OK sans HCG then why add it then add adex or another AI. hell wheres it ends My E now comes back at the low teens level with my T being NICE and high teetering on or just overboard.
Ill look into it though thanks for the suggestion.
Phill
[/quote]
Dam! I didnt know your preexisting levels were that bad! In that case, yea, hCG is probably pointless because your testicals are basically not even functioning. I doubt hCG would even help much if at all, so your probably better off not bothering. The less drugs ya use, the better, IMO.
For me on the other hand, hCG is definitely needed. My pre-existing levels are ok(490), plus, hey, I like my balls and at 27, I want to keep them for awile, LOL.
Hey, if ya can look at one thing positive about your pre-existing, shoddy t levels, is that because you had so little test, you had basically nothing to aromitize into estrogen, hence why you never needed an anti - estrogen.
Definitely saved you some dough in the long run! And as always, unlike Vegas, the less drugs you have to take, the better 
What do your t-levels test out at nowadays? What are you running and at what dose? Thanks phill, you kick ass BTW!
[quote]T-Nick wrote:What IDIOT doctor is letting you use hCG without an anti - E? hCG is well known for its aromatization and its pretty much standard to use it with adex or aromisin.
[/quote]
I have never heard that HCG causes aromatization. It is a peptide hormone and cannot be converted to T or E. The only effect is probably limited to the increase in T that the HCG produces and nothing more. Please educate me if I have missed something.
[quote]T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
I think HCG sucks balls (haha).
I currently use it as a monotherapy and my levels are all over the place. Some days I can feel them up way high. With that comes the estrogen. I get bloates and pissy, however my workouts become very productive. It also sucks having to keep that shit cold. I am going on androgel or test E on Dec 19 when I see my doc.
Another drawback to HCG is my balls are to big now. .
For supps I use the standard stuff
Creatine
Protein Powder (Metabolic Drive and Dynamatoze elite whey)
Caff free Spike
Fish Oil
Greens+
I also have a load of BCAA and Glutamine that I am trying to use up
Dam. What IDIOT doctor is letting you use hCG without an anti - E? hCG is well known for its armotization and its pretty much standard to use it with adex or aromisin.
What were your preexisting t-levels? I find it strange you were given standalone hCG. Usually if anything is given standalone its androgel. hCG is given when someone goes on a derivative of testosterone to keep the balls from going by-by.
[/quote]
The doctor wont give me an anti e becasue no lab in my area will test E2. They will only do total estrogen and they always come back at around 85, which is normal.
My doc likes younger guys with normal levels (mine were 314nd/dl and 5.1 Bio t)to start with HCG. He gave me a choice if I wanted some androgel with it but I made the stupid mistake. It makes sense to try and do it naturally without just jumping on Test without cause (when levels arent below normal).
Then you get into what normal is for each individual. My Doctor wants me above 800ng/dl and if possible touching the 1100ng or slightly over.
Most guys that try HCG mono end up going on test. I will be going on test.
Some docs are now doing HCG monotherapy for guys that are classed hypogonadal. Dr. Shippen (I think) is the name of the guys that is big on using ot. He has a book called the Testosterne Syndrome.
My test from last week showed 964 ng/dl total t. We didnt get bio t becuase I cant afford to pay for it every time. Thats from 350iu EOD injected sub q inot my stomach or leg. As I said I will be going on Test e or androgel because even though my levles are high I am not seeing any big changes.
I also think that things are a little different in Canada. Just finding a doc that would help me took about 4 months. Then no GP would give me a ref so the doc let me self refer.
Now I cant get a GP in my area becasue they have labeled me as a juicer or something. I tried to switch family docs and they wouldnt let me because I am an athelte and I use HCG. They always give me the steroids are bad lecture and being a “big and blocky meathead” makes girls not like you. Nice eh.
Fucking doctors.
[quote]KSman wrote:
T-Nick wrote:What IDIOT doctor is letting you use hCG without an anti - E? hCG is well known for its aromatization and its pretty much standard to use it with adex or aromisin.
I have never heard that HCG causes aromatization. It is a peptide hormone and cannot be converted to T or E. The only effect is probably limited to the increase in T that the HCG produces and nothing more. Please educate me if I have missed something.
[/quote]
Depends upon the dose. If he is using standalone hCG, I would assume he is dosing at least 1000IU or more twice a week, if not more.
From mesorx.com “Doses over 1000 IU are noted for their tendency to cause or aggravate gynecomastia, and also act to desensitize the testicles to LH.”
I would assume he is doing so, because a low dose hCG(say, 250IU, what most TRT programs use) would be pretty tame for a standalone test booster, and not even worth the black market price, hassle, legal troubles, or even the trouble cycling. Im also wondering why I doc would put him on such if he is going legal.
If he is dosing lower, he won’t have aromitization issues, but I would wonder why he would do so when it would be alot more effective just to use test along with it.
[quote]keaster wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
I think HCG sucks balls (haha).
I currently use it as a monotherapy and my levels are all over the place. Some days I can feel them up way high. With that comes the estrogen. I get bloates and pissy, however my workouts become very productive. It also sucks having to keep that shit cold. I am going on androgel or test E on Dec 19 when I see my doc.
Another drawback to HCG is my balls are to big now. .
For supps I use the standard stuff
Creatine
Protein Powder (Metabolic Drive and Dynamatoze elite whey)
Caff free Spike
Fish Oil
Greens+
I also have a load of BCAA and Glutamine that I am trying to use up
Dam. What IDIOT doctor is letting you use hCG without an anti - E? hCG is well known for its armotization and its pretty much standard to use it with adex or aromisin.
What were your preexisting t-levels? I find it strange you were given standalone hCG. Usually if anything is given standalone its androgel. hCG is given when someone goes on a derivative of testosterone to keep the balls from going by-by.
The doctor wont give me an anti e becasue no lab in my area will test E2. They will only do total estrogen and they always come back at around 85, which is normal.
My doc likes younger guys with normal levels (mine were 314nd/dl and 5.1 Bio t)to start with HCG. He gave me a choice if I wanted some androgel with it but I made the stupid mistake. It makes sense to try and do it naturally without just jumping on Test without cause (when levels arent below normal).
Then you get into what normal is for each individual. My Doctor wants me above 800ng/dl and if possible touching the 1100ng or slightly over.
Most guys that try HCG mono end up going on test. I will be going on test.
Some docs are now doing HCG monotherapy for guys that are classed hypogonadal. Dr. Shippen (I think) is the name of the guys that is big on using ot. He has a book called the Testosterne Syndrome.
My test from last week showed 964 ng/dl total t. We didnt get bio t becuase I cant afford to pay for it every time. Thats from 350iu EOD injected sub q inot my stomach or leg. As I said I will be going on Test e or androgel because even though my levles are high I am not seeing any big changes.
I also think that things are a little different in Canada. Just finding a doc that would help me took about 4 months. Then no GP would give me a ref so the doc let me self refer.
Now I cant get a GP in my area becasue they have labeled me as a juicer or something. I tried to switch family docs and they wouldnt let me because I am an athelte and I use HCG. They always give me the steroids are bad lecture and being a “big and blocky meathead” makes girls not like you. Nice eh.
Fucking doctors. [/quote]
Oh, ok. Im enlightened. Very, very interesting. I wonder what your estrogen levels are. Me thinks, and a wild guess here, that your at least borderline.
Screw androgel. It also has issues with aromitization more so than injections(per mg of test)and I have read that it elevates DHT levels more so than test(when mg dose is same).
Its a pretty much broad consensus that shots are the way to go.
Your the first person Ive ever read about on standalone hCG. I also noticed that you feel “all over the place”. I wonder if thats because, maybe, hCG causes(guess here, just hypothesizing) more rapid fluctuations in test, rather that a smooth rise and fall that test/androgel has. Interesting.
I would be wary of standalone hCG. Better of with shots of test/hcg or 2nd route would be androgel standalone.
[quote]T-Nick wrote:
Dam! I didnt know your preexisting levels were that bad! In that case, yea, hCG is probably pointless because your testicals are basically not even functioning. I doubt hCG would even help much if at all, so your probably better off not bothering. The less drugs ya use, the better, IMO. [/quote]
thats right we tried many thing prior to the TRT and I am officially secondary and primary Not making much LH and the boys dont respond to LH we think due to my accident/injury as a child.
[quote]
For me on the other hand, hCG is definitely needed. My pre-existing levels are ok(490), plus, hey, I like my balls and at 27, I want to keep them for awile, LOL.
Hey, if ya can look at one thing positive about your pre-existing, shoddy t levels, is that because you had so little test, you had basically nothing to aromitize into estrogen, hence why you never needed an anti - estrogen.
Definitely saved you some dough in the long run! And as always, unlike Vegas, the less drugs you have to take, the better
What do your t-levels test out at nowadays? What are you running and at what dose? Thanks phill, you kick ass BTW![/quote]
hey no prob and thank you for the advice and info. I may even try again see if the boys wake up now I doubt it though LOL.
My levels between 900-1000, 250mg per week Test e.
Phill
[quote]T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
Oh, ok. Im enlightened. Very, very interesting. I wonder what your estrogen levels are. Me thinks, and a wild guess here, that your at least borderline.
Screw androgel. It also has issues with aromitization more so than injections(per mg of test)and I have read that it elevates DHT levels more so than test(when mg dose is same).
Its a pretty much broad consensus that shots are the way to go.
Your the first person Ive ever read about on standalone hCG. I also noticed that you feel “all over the place”. I wonder if thats because, maybe, hCG causes(guess here, just hypothesizing) more rapid fluctuations in test, rather that a smooth rise and fall that test/androgel has. Interesting.
I would be wary of standalone hCG. Better of with shots of test/hcg or 2nd route would be androgel standalone. [/quote]
I think it is because HCG isnt esterfied and water based.
I had my E2 levels checked a lnog time ago (6 months) and they were, in the GP’s words, elevated. When I first started HCG ,my total estrogens were at 95. They have improved. However, my nipples sometimes kill me and I feel bloated and moddy the night of the shot (I take it in the AM) and the next night. I get about 8 hours of feeling good then I feel like shit.
The only thing I dont like about the shots is having to give them to myself. I have been giving myself these HCG shots EOD and they are a pain in the ass.
On a side note if you have pets, dont let them near you while you inject. My dog decided to jump on me while I was giving myself the HCG. I was bleeding like a sumbitch.
Some guys on another board were raving about the effectiveness of HCG alone. They were also the guys who thought you could control E2 with DIM.
[quote]keaster wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
Oh, ok. Im enlightened. Very, very interesting. I wonder what your estrogen levels are. Me thinks, and a wild guess here, that your at least borderline.
Screw androgel. It also has issues with aromitization more so than injections(per mg of test)and I have read that it elevates DHT levels more so than test(when mg dose is same).
Its a pretty much broad consensus that shots are the way to go.
Your the first person Ive ever read about on standalone hCG. I also noticed that you feel “all over the place”. I wonder if thats because, maybe, hCG causes(guess here, just hypothesizing) more rapid fluctuations in test, rather that a smooth rise and fall that test/androgel has. Interesting.
I would be wary of standalone hCG. Better of with shots of test/hcg or 2nd route would be androgel standalone.
I think it is because HCG isnt esterfied and water based.
I had my E2 levels checked a lnog time ago (6 months) and they were, in the GP’s words, elevated. When I first started HCG ,my total estrogens were at 95. They have improved. However, my nipples sometimes kill me and I feel bloated and moddy the night of the shot (I take it in the AM) and the next night. I get about 8 hours of feeling good then I feel like shit.
The only thing I dont like about the shots is having to give them to myself. I have been giving myself these HCG shots EOD and they are a pain in the ass.
On a side note if you have pets, dont let them near you while you inject. My dog decided to jump on me while I was giving myself the HCG. I was bleeding like a sumbitch.
Some guys on another board were raving about the effectiveness of HCG alone. They were also the guys who thought you could control E2 with DIM.
[/quote]
LOL…that is true the only difference is sometimes my girlfriend gives me my injections while I am laying on the floor and my goddam cat loves to play with the needle while it’s in my ass so I have to keep him busy untill the injections done.
Yea, your pretty much echoing what my doctor said and what Ive read about hCG, is that it causes aromitization and probably shouldn’t be used without an anti, depending upon your pre-existing levels of course.
Yea, your estrogen is elevated. What type of anti-E are you going to take? My doctor thinks aromisin is a better way to go instead of adex, because it only knocks off about half of the estrogen and Im not taking to huge of a shot of test anyways.
Yea, Im not to big of a fan of standalone hCG as a test booster. Just because its only been in mainstream use for about a year now, and that use has been in conjuction with test and an anti-E. There really isn’t too many people out there on standalone hCG and there isn’t a whole lot of data to show its effectiveness, compared with test and androgel, which has thousands of users to back results upon. Its no suprise to me either that its causing crazy fluctuations in test either.
Whats your plan? Androgel and maybe adex if your estrogen is still elevated?
[quote]keaster wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
T-Nick wrote:
keaster wrote:
Oh, ok. Im enlightened. Very, very interesting. I wonder what your estrogen levels are. Me thinks, and a wild guess here, that your at least borderline.
Screw androgel. It also has issues with aromitization more so than injections(per mg of test)and I have read that it elevates DHT levels more so than test(when mg dose is same).
Its a pretty much broad consensus that shots are the way to go.
Your the first person Ive ever read about on standalone hCG. I also noticed that you feel “all over the place”. I wonder if thats because, maybe, hCG causes(guess here, just hypothesizing) more rapid fluctuations in test, rather that a smooth rise and fall that test/androgel has. Interesting.
I would be wary of standalone hCG. Better of with shots of test/hcg or 2nd route would be androgel standalone.
I think it is because HCG isnt esterfied and water based.
I had my E2 levels checked a lnog time ago (6 months) and they were, in the GP’s words, elevated. When I first started HCG ,my total estrogens were at 95. They have improved. However, my nipples sometimes kill me and I feel bloated and moddy the night of the shot (I take it in the AM) and the next night. I get about 8 hours of feeling good then I feel like shit.
The only thing I dont like about the shots is having to give them to myself. I have been giving myself these HCG shots EOD and they are a pain in the ass.
On a side note if you have pets, dont let them near you while you inject. My dog decided to jump on me while I was giving myself the HCG. I was bleeding like a sumbitch.
Some guys on another board were raving about the effectiveness of HCG alone. They were also the guys who thought you could control E2 with DIM.
[/quote]