I think I’m the only other competitive strength athlete to respond so far to this thread, so I hope I can bring a different perspective from what others have said.
I don’t think the cycle you’re proposing (750ish of test, deca and eq), along with low dose anadrol, is crazy. It seems fairly reasonable to me.
What I have learned in the last couple years of competing at a high level is that nobody will tell you what they are actually taking until you’re competing side by side with them. Once you earn the respect from high level competitors, it becomes easier to have a real, open conversation about these things. 2-2.5 grams of total gear, with none of them being tren, and heavily weighted towards injectables rather than orals, is indeed peanuts compared to high level bodybuilders, powerlifters and strongman competitors. I’ve seen much higher doses. I’ve personally run higher gear than what you’ve outlined in terms of total mg’s, although not for a long period of time. The heaviest week of gear I ran this year, if I remember correctly, was 1500 test, 600 EQ, 100dbol/day, 100anadrol/day, 20halo per day. I believe that was it. I didn’t run this much for very long, but it did get up to that the last 2-3 weeks leading up to a big show.
I hear about stacks like 1g test, 500eq, 500tren, 500 mast, + 2 or orals all the time. To me, the key is how you respond, how well you tolerate high gear levels. It’s my opinion that the top pros who use 5+ grams of gear per week are some of the very few humans who can do that and still function. I would assume that there are many, many pros who have run gear at the levels McCarver did and been ok on the other side. He probably ran more than he could handle.
I heard the term ‘abuse’ above, and I was amused. Anything over a therapeutic dose is abuse. It’s silly to think otherwise. If you’re using steroids for anything other than legitimate medical reasons, you’re abusing it. If you are prescribed pain killers, and you take even 1 more pain pill than what is necessary to kill the pain, you’re abusing it. That’s just how it works.
On top of that, we abuse our bodies by training the way we do. We put ourselves at risk of injury consistently. We eat to get unreasonably lean. We sacrifice relationships with other people at times in our quest for greatness. Those are all forms of abuse. The only question that should be asked is how much abuse you’re willing and able to put yourself through to achieve the things that matter to you.
There’s a difference though, you were competing at the highest level in the world if I’m not mistaken, the guy in this thread was taking close to what you were taking but doesn’t have his pro-card yet.
I admit I’m not the best person to come to when talking about doses, because I think 500mg/wk is high. While taking anything above the medically prescribed dose is abuse, there’s different levels of severity when it comes to abuse, there’s the “hey that’s more than you’re prescribed” abuse, and the “that’s going to kill you before you turn fifty” abuse.
This sounds insane to me, considering on paper that’s 3.5 grams of test!!!
As to the cycle not sounding crazy, that’s 2.4 grams of gear/wk, is that not a high dose? I’m just curious, and is there a point of diminishing returns, his proposed cycle is 2450mg/wk, surely that can’t be THAT much more effective than 1500mg/wk, at some point androgen receptors must become saturated right?
I apologize if my arguements appear incoherent or dumb, I haven’t slept much in the past four days (exams). I guess what I’m currently doing is also a form of abuse to my body, today’s the last day though, then I’m going to sleep for like two days haha.
Anyway if he’s gonna use 2.4-3 grams/wk now, how much is he going to use when he’s at you’re level? If he runs like 7 grams/wk that isn’t exactly affordable for most… Unless it’s like test only
So @flipcollar out of curiousity what’s the highest dose you’ve ever come across someone using?
oh man. That would be hard to remember exactly, because it involved insulin and GH as well. But the steroid component was like 2g test, 1g tren, npp (don’t remember how much, probably 500-1g), and eq around the same as the deca. Anadrol and Dbol around 200 per day close to contest. something like that.
To be frank I’m with the life style body building gives. and knowing many who body build.
Its our up bringing that puts us into this sport.
I’m perfectly fine “abusing life” in the sense of being alone, minding my business, spending my pay cheques on steroids, not having a social life or relationship because when it comes down to it, its my life. If i want to body build and be a wolf for 20 years then a sheep for 60…It’s my decision.
I don’t entirely think my cycle dosages are to much as well. Probably standard for a high level competing athlete.
I mean if I could afford it Id throw in insulin and HGH and there we go, the “next level”.
Just out of curiosity what are your honest, lean measurements? Also can you post photo’s of your competition, so we can gauge how you rate against the other competitors?
Depends on how long his career lasts, and his individual response to gear. The guys who are in and out during their prime then quit while they’re ahead (Jay cutler, Dennis wolf) for example) are still alive, although some are unlucky anyways that’s where genetics come into play. The guys who keep going after serious complications develop (Phil health, a few others) are more likely to and/or have died. Once again genetics play a big factor. I’d also say though that 60 is steep for a professional bodybuilder, however I don’t know. If what flipcollar says is true and all these guys are using absurd amounts of gear, shouldn’t we be seeing way more bodies piling up? I mean I get that it tends to catch up to you later in life, but shouldn’t guys on like 5 grams + be dropping regardless? They’re using an entire lifespans worth of androgens every 3-6 months. It makes me think a lot of the issues mainly affect guys who use megadoses, and literature is potentially slightly sensationalising the negative effects. Seems the body count from other drugs of abuse (that are used less commonly than anabolic steroids) is statistically faaaaarrr higher
@flipcollar these dudes who use super, SUPER high doses (sorry if this is in appropriate to ask), have any of them had a heart attack/ sudden death that you know of (unrelated to recreational drug use like stimulants such as cocaine amphetamines, other drugs like alcohol and such.)
I can’t believe the avg lifespan is like 78, considering how many people in my blood related family have lived til their mid 90s, and in one case 100s. Strange, must be genetic.
I would like to debate this, so his TT was 55,000ng/dl. For me to get to 1,000ng/dl it would take slightly over 200mg/wk., so let’s say 210mg/wk. gets me to a mean testosterone level of 1000ng/dl. 210*55, that’s 11 grams of test/wk. ALONE and that’s assuming the increase in total (not free) testosterone levels is linear, there’s no studies done on whether the increase in levels is linear or not (as in if 200mg nets someone 1000ng/dl, does 400mg equate to 2000 and 600 3000 etc or is there a point of diminishing increases). Since he was competing, we can also assume he was probably using tren, masteron, maybe EQ however metabolites of boldenone weren’t picked up, nor were metabolites of deca, maybe halo, winny, tbol, dbol, anadrol (off season and pre-comp, like winny, tbol, halo pre-comp and dbol/drol off season, idk I’m not experienced with what people use.) Metabolites of marijuana were also picked up, one can also assume insulin, HGH, igf-1 use and supposedly Dallas used EPO too, I don’t know how much credibility that rumour has though as EPO is very expensive, and what would a bodybuilder get out of it? High dose AAS regiments should already give a boost in RBC count. So if he was using say 15-20grams/wk. (which I guess it’s possible considering he was one of the best in the world as he competed in Mr Olympia), how the HELL does someone pin all that oil weekly and not get an abscess? Maybe he used high concentration gear, like t450 or something, in which case maybe the weed was to help with pain? I recall nalbuphine being popular with bodybuilders back in the day, twas an injectable opiate pain medication, guys got addicted to it though. I have a hard time believing (although I could very well be wrong) that the average pro takes enough test to get up to 55,000ng/dl, I’ve heard of 10,000ng/dl, and even 15,000ng/dl, but 55 thousand is still more than three times that!
Also how do the pros afford so much gear? It’s gotta be like 40 grand/month for all the PEDS when considering the steroids, growth hormone, insulin, peptides, EPO if that’s really a thing etc, do pros make that much? I don’t think they do.
We afford gear by reselling usually,
I get my products 50-60$ and resale 50% increase always, so 100-110$.
plus just regular work
cycles get up into the thousands but I mean…We also don’t drink, don’t party, don’t go out, strict diets and dont waste money on going out. We prioritize our money
this is such a difficult subject to navigate. So many confounding variables.
One such variable is the rampant use of pain pills, muscle relaxers, anti inflammatory drugs, etc. A whole lot of people using a lot of PED’s also abuse these things. And people rarely talk about that. Then there are the recreational drugs that you mentioned, something else people tend to lie about. Then there are the autopsy reports we hear about where the coroner might mention a congenital heart defect, and we have to decide to what degree, if any, the PED’s exacerbated the issue, vs what was going to happen anyway. THEN there’s also PED’s like anabolic steroids, vs insulin and GH, and other peptides.
So after trying to sort through all that, you have to try and figure out what percentage of the bodybuilding/steroid using population is having the health issues we’re talking about vs the population at large. I’ve never seen actual evidence that bodybuilders are more likely to have heart attacks at a young age than ‘normal people’. When we see a 40 year old guy who doesn’t work out have a heart attack, we just say ‘these things happen’. But we’re quick to blame steroids when a bodybuilder has one.
I’ve long believed that simply carrying a very high bodyweight has high risk of heart disease associated with it, and there IS science/data to back that up. People with higher bodyweights tend to live shorter lives, period. It could be that being a 280 lbs fat guy carries similar risks as being a 280 lbs bodybuilder. I don’t know that, but it’s certainly a possibility. To me, it seems likely.
I also know that stress, from what ever source it comes from, plays a large role in heart disease. Bodybuilding is a stressful hobby. Most high level competitors spend a lot of money on it, and don’t necessarily make a lot of money. That’s a problem that can cause a lot of stress on a person. Bodybuilders tend to have relationship problems because of their hobby, social issues in general, etc. All of this adds up to health problems.
I’ve heard people who say Arnold had his health issues because of steroids. It’s an easy thing to point to. I’m more likely to believe that his time in politics, alongside business ventures, and keeping an affair/ secret son from the rest of his family were worse for his health. But my opinion can’t be proven.
ways they don’t generally want to talk about. you can use your imagination. are you familiar with G4P? not saying this is all pros, or even close to it, but it’s a thing. drug dealing is also a good way to come up with a lot of cash. And then there are guys like Piana who just make a lot of money.
You are also overestimating how much drugs cost for people buying from good sources, in bulk. Your estimation is waaaaaay too high.
EDIT: don’t ask me to put numbers to how much things cost. I’m not going there. Thanks
Yes, it’s in his autopsy report “550ng/ml” which equates to 55,000ng/dl
depends what the congenital heart defect is, AAS spells disaster for most with undiagnosed congenital defects considering their pro-arrytmiac properties and the fact that they induce cardiac hypertrophy (not good for one with inhereted familial cardiomyopathy).
Yeet, the heart can’t really tell if it’s pumping to fat or muscle, it just knows there’s a large mass it needs to work harder to pump too.
it’s due to this and my passion for weight training in general that makes me think bodybuilding is like… the perfect thing for me to do. I’m still too afraid to take the plunge though, however over the past few months as things (socially) are looking very bleak, somehow the notion that I don’t really have much to live for makes me feel slightly more comfortable with potentially fucking myself up (i’m not depressed though, just been thinking about this lately, and how I reckon I’d actually be very happy if I was to employ a full-time bodybuilding lifestyle (the structured lifestyle would make me feel comfortable and safe given the lack of variability, the lack of social interaction I currently experience would be a benefit, romantic relationships aren’t important to me, potentially an autism related thing but I think they’re distractions that impede my ability to reach my full potential. Aside from anxiety I would get about my heart rate and whatnot I think I’d be very happy as a bodybuilder). Not looking for encouragement or deterrants, just stating stuff. That being said due to my young age I can’t really be sure what I want (despite the fact I’ve wanted to be a bodybuilder since I was like… eight), therefore I’m probably going to be giving it another ten years of so before I figure out if it’s really what I want to do, as there is serious risks involved.
That’s the problem, evidence has surfaced that has come to some potentially alarming conclusions.
(seriously some of the on AAS users in this study had LV EF fractions of that in which what one would see in a patient with late stage congestive heart failure)
That being said there are a few studies that refute the claims and findings of these studies
(there’s some others I can’t be bothered to find because I didn’t bookmark them, however they’re mostly old studies and less in depth than the newer, more concerning studies. Keep in mind after illicit drug use was factored out in the first two studies, significant detrimental effects on the myocardium were still apparent compared to controls)
(whoops I accidentally posted this before it was finished)
Here’s one that shows cardiac hypertrophy of similar degrees occurs routinely in eliete power athletes with or without AAS use
and this study finds that bodybuilding, natural or not puts stress on the heart and impairs cardiac function (however AAS using bodybuilders still had larger LV weight in the absence of additional cardiac dysfunction)
As to evidence that mortality is higher in the general bodybuilding populace, there was a meta analysis done a while ago that found the mortality of eliete level powerlifters who were SUSPECTED to have used AAS was 5x that of the general populace (however many of the deaths were unrelated, like suicide, cancer etc. However the increase in myocardial infarct was evident, yet I believe in general being big, heavy and constantly lifting very heavy weights (valsalva manouver, massively increased intra arterial pressure) over time does quite a bit of damage, therefore I find this study not of much value. A study which I can’t find but will look for and post is a meta analysis of pro bodybuilders, it found the mortality rate was about 36% higher than the general populace if i can remember, with the age group of increased deaths occuring in the 20’s, 30’s and 40s while other age groups were similar to control, I believe (although I might be mixing details here), the primary cause of premature death from what I recall was cardiovascular related complication,
Well I have to continue this reply however I’m in class and I just got caught out so…
Anabolic steroids (aside from various other actions such as decreased amino acid breakdown, increased nitrogen retention, IGF-1 output etc) achieve many of their desired results (muscular hypertrophy, aggression in the gym with stronger androgens, other stuff but there’s no point in listing stuff you already know.) by binding to the AR is various tissues, cardiac myocytes also contain androgen receptors, it is said that when androgens bind to cardiac myocytes hypertrophy occurs, when the cells get too big they enter apoptosis (programmaed cell death), the resulting dead tissue is replaced by fibrotic (scar) tissue, thus further increasing the chances of lethal arrythmias and cardiac dysfunction.
The cardiotoxicity of painkillers (compared to AAS) in my opinion (aside from potent selective COX-2 inhibitors and Dextroprophoxypehe (which I’ve actually taken for pain before) is minimal, however I do believe if the heart was already significantly damaged, it may be easier for it to stop under the pretense of profound respiratory depression induced by painkillers.
I am very familiar with G4P, it seems like a great way to make money (the only downside is you have to show you’re face, that’s a dealbreaker), I’ve seen the vid with Kai Greene and the grap… I mean I have never seen that video.
Arnold’s health problems were actually due to a (documented) congenital heart defect, considering he started using at around 15 it’s amazing he didn’t have issues until he was far older, his most recent heart fiasco was once again complications related to his heart defect, that coupled with the hollywood lifestyle (do you think he hasn’t tried coke? In hollywood… In the 80’s.), however we must take into account that (usually) the guys in the golden era didn’t take as much AAS as the pro’s do today. Mike Mentzer took a lot (was said to have taken 2.5 GRAMS of DECA/wk + god knows what else), he died in his late fourties, so did his brother of kidney disease potentially related to chronic intake of oral AAS (although I’m not sure which kind of kidney disease it was, if it was autoimmune then it was probs unrelated, just shitty luck). Casey Viator died relatively young, Pete Gymkowski used copious, copious amounts (supposedly 10,000mg/day according to his interviews), he has had open heart surgery for MULTIPLE blockages in his 50’s, the rest of them are in great health, Lou Ferrigno still looks like he uses sauce, and I’d bet Arnold is on a healthy, PHAT TRT dose (say 250mg/wk) + some GH. Slyvester Stallone is probably still on stuff, another factor is that many of these guys (like you mentioned) aren’t as big as the pro’s today, that being said these guys are also genetic anomalies, can the average joe get away with using AAS routinely and live a long and healthy life, I’m not so sure, granted it’s up to the inidivdial as to whether they think it’s worth it. Personally I think it’s worth it up to a point (I’ll explain later)
As to the price of gear, I’m going by Aus prices, I pay 90-100$ for 1 vial of test E, 35$ for 3ml at the pharmacy on script and 200$+ for 3ml of pharm grade on the BM. Raws come cheaper, but homebrewing is not something I want to do because if caught that’s a large jail sentence… Huh, I never thought about that, maybe they homebrew and that’s how they afford so much. Still, I find it hard to believe Dallas could’ve been taking this
I mean that amount of slin alone should kill anyone lol (did he eat like 10 million grams of carbs a day)… The amt of IGF-1 (can’t homebrew that) would cost quite a bit, for UGL HGH I guess thats affordable. EPO costs nearly a grand for 10,000 units in Aus, much cheaper in the US tho, I just find it hard to believe the cycle proposed in this article is real. If it is then there’s no suprise he died so young (he also had a familial history of hypertension, high cholesterol and premature death from heart disease)
There has been a worrying trend of young people coming in on AAS with CHF (quite a few new case reports were publised this year), many of these individuals are absent of familial history (and many CLAIM) to live healthy lives absent of drug use, the doses of compounds used by these people is unknown, however there was one case of a healthy 60 y/o who ran a single cycle and developed heart damage after only three months, that being said the case report seemed sus, many of the case reports are suspect as patients are unlikely to be honest about their drug use, heart defects cannot be ruled out, many times genetic history doesn’t come into play nor does the discussion of potential recreational drug use (ephedrine, beta 2 agonists as high doses, amphetamines in high doses, cocaine, alcohol and more can all cause cardioymopathy)
Another thing (at least what I think) is, concentric LVH from lifting heavy weight comes into play due to brief bouts of extreme arterial hypertension in the few seconds when lifting, one can only assume that if they take AAS to be able to double their lifts (fluoxymesterone, metribolnoe (cheque drops) if anyone still takes those, methyltrienolone (methyltrenbolone), dimethyltrenbolone (DImethyltrebolone… holy shit right!!! Just listing a bunch of strong AAS that’ll make people very strong if used pre-comp) the increased strength over time ought to result in increased LV diameter. Left ventricular size is decent predictor for cardiovascular mortality (aside from athletes heart, the effects of athletes heart is unknown, that being said an alarming amount of sudden deaths seem to occur in soccer). Wrestlers seem to die very young (mostly drug overdose), however heart attacks in the 20’s and 30’s do occur (once again most likely cocaine+other drugs + steroids, however there’s been one or two cases of wrestelrs who lived clean lifestyles dying of myocardial infarction at 40-50.
This being said, many people die in their 30s 40s and 50s anyway, however it shouldn’t happen to people living otherwise healthy lifestyle, and it appears to be happening in te bodybuilding population (although not particualrly commonly I don’t think), people eat shitty diets and sedentary lifestyles, have bad genetics, have congenital heart defects, these people tend to die young regardless. I just get worried about the long term consequences I’m putting myself out there for, as it isn’t really a question of “if” will I get health issues, it’s more of a “when” will I get health issues, hence why I use such low doses. I believe a lot of it is genetic and luck based, dose and lifestyle dependent and agent dependent (do you use GH+peptides+clen+thyroid hormones etc).
Back to whether it’s worth it, there are many positives using AAS can have on the competitive athlete (for a competitive athlete it’s totally worth it, no questions asked). For the average joe on TRT I think it’s worth it up to a point, in my experience, (I don’t have issues with self esteem but) the more muscular I become the more confident I become, especially when I go out to events which is a plus, people give you positive attention and it allows you to live a higher quality of life overall (more energy, libido, drive etc) if you’re short and socially awkward like me, being bigger tends to ward off bullies who would otherwise pick on me and/or attempt to start fights that I don’t want to have. Other benefits include, increased athletisicm and exercise capacity, increased ability to achieve better looking partners (esp at my age where everyone is shallow and self centered), and most of all it opens up more avenues in life (job opportunities such as bouncer, security guard etc), increased work capacity (because you don’t tend to get tired as quickly thus you may be able to study harder, although extremely high doses of AAS may be neurotoxic so there’s a cut-off point). Many of these things listed only matter to the young (say below 40), however it that to say one should just wait until they are forty so it won’t matter anymore? Just because a high sex drive and energy level might not be of important to an 85 y/o man doesn’t mean it isn’t important, it just isn’t important to/for that age demographic. However given the many potential negative’s of AAS use it needs to be a carefully thought out decision someone needs to make and moderation (if not a professinal athlete) is the key. I’ve never gone over 250mg/wk, a dose that’d only get me up to around 1300ng/dl. My joints recently hurt like a motherfucker, so there’s no point in me going higher anyway. My TRT dose is gonna be (probably) 200mg/wk, I’m prescribed 140mg/wk so it’s a small addition for extra feel-good… ness. Actually it depends on my bloods, I appear to (relatively) hyper-metabolise T so I might go even higher for my TRT, aiming for the top 2.5% of men (https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/96/8/2430/2834349) and I felt so good at 250mg/wk, I’ve gone down as low as 100mg/wk (and I feel absolutely shit on that dose). I probably will run few cycles in the future, however I never intend to ever go over 400mg/wk (total mgs of hormones weekly), unless I somehow become a competitive BB, I’m more interested in a higher quality of life, less joint and muscle pain would be great too…
I don’t understand why bodybuilders would abuse painkillers though, I’ve taken quite a few of them (prescribed) and while they’re excellent at killing pain, I can’t imagine working out while taking them, I’d probably throw up, I HATE painkillers (opiates), they make me feel warm and fuzzy, but at the same time disorientated, dizzy, sick, tired, and impair my motor skills and cognitive function. Can’t drive or really go to class and be productive if I’m on painkillers.
I wonder if this breaks a record for longest post ever.
definitely longest post ever. But a really good one. I got a lot out of it, thanks for that. really only one thing I want to address for now.
Holy hell, you guys pay a lot. So for reference, here a good price for a 10mL vial of 250mg/ml test would be around 40 USD. And that’s buying in very low quantities, not raws. this is not pharma. BUT I have a friend paying about 10-15 USD for pharma via script, same size vial. only downside there being that the quantities you can get prescribed are obviously limited.
@flipcollar what @unreal24278 didn’t mention in his post is that Test E is currently unavailable, and most of us are using Sustanon as an alternative. That costs $96 (about $70 US) at the pharmacy for three 1 ml vials.
Incidentally, Unreal, I’m pretty sure that dating when you’re on the spectrum is going to be difficult even if you’ve got a body like Chris Bumstead…
What, no I was talking about UGL, UGL test costs 90$ a vial. As to dating on the spectrum, I’ve done it before, I’ve just never enjoyed it much, but you’re right, dating in general is far more difficult when on the spectrum purely based on the fact that I don’t understand emotions very well, nor do I always know what the right thing to say is.
I actually still have a source for Test E (pharmacy), I found a pharmacy that still has it in stock.
