on the wed just do OHP for 5/3/1, give it your all, then afterwards do close grip as assistance for 5x10 or whatever
you add 5lbs/10lbs to training max after every month not week. By the sound of things you dont get the system, i strongly recommend you get Jims first book and/or read 10 of his articles on TNation ‘-hardgainers’ has 5s pro with everything laid out
thanks. I’ll give them both a read.
You put “dip alternative” twice, one in place of leg press or hack squat, I assume that’s a typo. I would go with dumbbell bench in place of dips, do sets of 10-15. I never heard of anyone’s sternum hurting from dips, that’s a new one.
I never said to do 5’s progression on OHP and close grip bench, just do the regular 5/3/1 thing and do a rep max set for those. If you feel like you need more volume then eventually you could add a down set but this should be fine for now.
I actually think that it makes more sense to do close grip bench as the main lift of the day rather than OHP for someone focused on powerlifting rather than just general strength. OHP is good, but I don’t see the point of prioritizing it over something more specific to benching, OHP after bench is no problem but benching after OHP is weird because your shoulders are fatigued but everything else is fresh. Actually, my bench assistance day starts of with close grip bench followed by OHP.
Sure, i prefer Close grip myself, more just no need for two 5/3/1 lifts how he laid it out
I made a spreadsheet for the progression on this program, i figured I would share it to double check everything is correct. I also corrected the errors on the google doc. I still haven’t read 5/3/1 the book, but I plan to soon. Thanks so much @chris_ottawa
spreadsheet:
google doc:
That’s better. A couple things though, the way you have “set 4 (optional)”, I don’t expect you to go beyond that right now but in a couple months you could potentially be doing a 5th or even 6th set, you should be able to make fast progress.
You don’t need to deload every 4th week, that was how the original program was written but in “Beyond 5/3/1” and other more recent stuff Jim has been telling people to deload after 6 weeks (two 3 week cycles, one week deload). Especially since you are young and not at an advanced level, you should be able to recover well as long as you don’t do anything stupid.
No need to do hanging leg raises twice a week, do something else on one day. Ab wheel rollouts are good, ab wheels are around $10 on Amazon and you could even do them with a barbell (just load 45’s on each side).
I just put hangling leg raises there as a generic an exercise. I’ll probably do crunch variations (ab wheel rollouts have never gone very well for me). Also I should have mentioned I only intend on deloading every fourth week if I feel particularly beat up, I will normally go 6 weeks before a deload. Also about the sets with 10% jumps in weight after normal 5/3/1 sets: I don’t see how I could do more than 1 “optonal set” because there’s no way I could bench 170 for 5, for example, and 160 would be pushing it. If I could do more than one of these sets in the future, wouldn’t I be getting stronger more quickly than the program (not saying that won’t happen it just seems weird). One more quick question: if on my third set in week 3 (the hardest mandatory set of the program) if it starts approaching RPE 9, should I stop at 3 or 4 reps? For example, I’ve pulled 250 (supossed to hit this weight for 5 on the first week 3) for 3x5 before, but my lower back “flatness” was a little iffy. I know that as a young inexperienced lifter, building good form is highly important. Does this mean if I feel any fo breakdown I should stop right away?
This is a video I have of me attempting a deadlift 1rm from a few months ago (I ended up getting 5lbs heavier) is back rounding on deadlifts an issue if it’s to that extent? Edit: my erectors are pretty sore the morning after a session where this happens.
Sorry I have so many questions. You have been super helpful and I really appreciate it!
Even if you can only do a couple reps of ab wheel rollouts it’s fine, it’s supposed to be hard and will help you brace harder. Crunches are a waste of time and can be hard on your back (situps too). You could try planks and side planks. There are more reasons to avoid exercises that involve spinal flexion that there is to do them.
This program doesn’t really have an expected rate of progression, if your numbers increase faster than your working weights then that is a good thing.
If you’re not certain that you could get those weights for 5 reps on any day then set your training max at 85% of your 1rm - for all lifts.
If that’s a max attempt then I wouldn’t worry about the little bit of back rounding, you can expect things to break down a bit when you get close to your max. If all your deadlift sets look like that then I would be concerned. Work on bracing. Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZjDb9dGX_I&t=6s
In most cases yes, if you just happen to make a mistake on one rep but you know you can still do several more then don’t worry too much, you can finish the set in that case.
I’m just going to add a few comments. Sorry if they’re repetitive
I find the squat requires the least assistance of the 3 lifts. At your level of progression I would just add calf raises (standing and seated, abs (planks, rollouts, and some type of leg raise for the hip flexors).
For the deadlift I would add block pulls and tons of rowing. Deficits are for later on when your back becomes stronger than your legs. Most people at the beginning have problems hip hinging and holding the back flat.
Bench press - Bodybuild the upper body and gain weight. There have been a few skinny armed world record benchers but not many.
OK, what do you think of my recommendations above? I said to do 5’s progression followed by deadlift 5x5 fsl (lighter weights) and then leg press or hack squat. My logic is that I already have him squatting twice a week but it doesn’t look like a lot of quad work so rather than have him grind out some ugly squats after the first two lifts I would just have him do some more direct quad work where technique should not be an issue. I never told him to do front squats, but I’m not coaching him and as they say, “you can bring a horse to water but you can’t make him drink”. I wouldn’t have suggested front squats, if no machines are available then Bulgarian splits squats would have been my first suggestion but if the kid wants to do front squats I won’t stop him. What do you think? Should he change things up? I’m just going by what I think I should have done when I first got serious about squatting.
As far as front squats, I never got anything out of them aside from fatigue and sore wrists or shoulders. I hate them and I refuse to do them, I can’t handle enough weight with front squats to get anything out of them and they cause me other issues. That said, there are some lifters out there for whom front squat are the #1 assistance lift for both squat and deadlift so I won’t disregard their potential.
I don’t do quad work anymore. My quads are genetically way stronger than my posterior chain and as a result I tend to use too much quad. It took me a long time to learn to sit back. My weakness is hamstrings and calves, so that’s what I focus on.
As for front squats, different strokes, but I believe that unless the lifter is advanced in technique, front squats will overdevelop the quads and underdevelop the posterior chain.
Its tough to recommend training techniques without actually being with the lifter for the obvious reasons so the best we can do throw ideas at him. I would hammer technique until he can literally squat with his eyes closed. Then have him squat twice a week on a responsible program. After that its all effort.
As for the deadlift, in my case I can handle light weight and high volume (3 x 10, 4 x 8, 1 x 20, speed singles) or heavy weight and low volume ( 3 x 2, 3 x 3, 5 x 1, 1 x 5). I don’t recover well from the medium volume/medium intensity programming.
I feel a beginner would do best IMO with multiple sets of low reps to practice setting up the all important first rep.
If anything it seems to me that front squats won’t do a whole lot for your quads and will mostly challenge your ability to stay upright and once you get that then your upper back. If you ask me, SSB squats are 1000x better.
That’s my logic well with the 5’s progression and 5x5. You could go lower than 5’s but for the sake of simplicity and not contradicting the tenets of the 5/3/1 gospel I would settle for that. AMRAPS are the worst thing a new lifter can do with the comp lifts.
What after squats I’ve been doing front squats. My gym doesn’t have a hack squat or ssb. And for some reason my knees hurt when I leg press so I’ve been avoiding it. Is there any exercise you think I should do instead of front squats?
You seem to believe squats and back squats are different movements? What do you think yhe difference is?
It must have autocorrected hack squat to back squat. Sorry about that.
100% agree. I wish my gym had the ssb. The closest I can get is high bars to a low box
The only person who can answer that is you.
You need to determine what you weaknesses are. Most people don’t have a quad weakness, hence my opinion regarding front squat. However Dan Green and Stefi Cohen both use them so they are useful to some people.
Why would you use hacks for PL?