What Routine Worked Best For You?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Professor X wrote:
IMCS614 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
IMCS614 wrote:

Are there more people that got big from doing bodypart splits?

Yes. Nearly every bodybuilder that has ever crossed a stage.

I’m not disagreeing on that point, and I understand this is a bodybuilding forum, but look at football players. Those cats are certainly big (a lot bigger than many amateur bodybuilders who do bodypart splits), and I would argue that most generally lift with total body workouts in addition to conditioning and practice.

I used to play football. Most of the truly large guys also trained on their own free time (especially in the off season) and when they did, it was mostly a split routine.
[/quote]

generalization.

22

[quote]xvsanta42 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
IMCS614 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
IMCS614 wrote:

Are there more people that got big from doing bodypart splits?

Yes. Nearly every bodybuilder that has ever crossed a stage.

I’m not disagreeing on that point, and I understand this is a bodybuilding forum, but look at football players. Those cats are certainly big (a lot bigger than many amateur bodybuilders who do bodypart splits), and I would argue that most generally lift with total body workouts in addition to conditioning and practice.

I used to play football. Most of the truly large guys also trained on their own free time (especially in the off season) and when they did, it was mostly a split routine.

generalization.[/quote]

What isn’t? Isn’t that the point? What has worked the best GENERALLY for the most people?

23

everything works. I think full body or an upper lower split(westside barbell conjugate method) is more fun, sometimes I put back work on lower day though. Lots of weightlifters are big and strong doing fullbody, lots of strongman’s, quite a few powerlifters, anyone who started with rippetoes 5x5 or something similiar built a base with full body.

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:
xvsanta42 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
IMCS614 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
IMCS614 wrote:

Are there more people that got big from doing bodypart splits?

Yes. Nearly every bodybuilder that has ever crossed a stage.

I’m not disagreeing on that point, and I understand this is a bodybuilding forum, but look at football players. Those cats are certainly big (a lot bigger than many amateur bodybuilders who do bodypart splits), and I would argue that most generally lift with total body workouts in addition to conditioning and practice.

I used to play football. Most of the truly large guys also trained on their own free time (especially in the off season) and when they did, it was mostly a split routine.

generalization.

What isn’t? Isn’t that the point? What has worked the best GENERALLY for the most people?[/quote]

you’re right.

Im an advocate for change…I like split because I do not need as much time to rest and can increase volume, but TBT has its pros as well…When one starts to plateau on a split, TBT should be considered and vice versa…

As for football players and their TBT and sick physiques, thats not necessarily because they are doing TBT…Most are ridiculous physical specimens with superior genetics…AND they are driven to be consistent in the gym…

25

Prof X,

You say less, I say more. Of the two of us, I’m in the position to actually know what works best for me. Having done both split and TBT, TBT was the overall best choice for me, at that point in my life, for my specific goals.

You say alot of thinks like ‘most guys’ this or that. Unless you know everyone, and know how they’ve trained…you can’t make that statement with any authority. Can people get big doing splits? Obviously. Can people get big doing TBT? Again, it’s obvious the answer is yes. Can people do the same doing a combination of both…yes they can.

Again, the whole point of the thread is ‘What routine has worked best for you?’ If someone states it was such and such a split, you’re not in a postion to say anything otherwise. If someone says such and such TBT, again you’re not in a position to comment otherwise, not with any authority anyway. Not unless you actually knew them, trained with them, knew their strengths and weaknesses etc. Then and only then you could ‘maybe’ put forth a loose opinion. But the only thing you can state with any authority is what has worked best for YOU.

For ME, it was TBT at that time in my life and situation. That is the final authority. Have a nice day.

26

[quote]TRAJJ wrote:
Prof X,

You say less, I say more. Of the two of us, I’m in the position to actually know what works best for me. Having done both split and TBT, TBT was the overall best choice for me, at that point in my life, for my specific goals.

You say alot of thinks like ‘most guys’ this or that. Unless you know everyone, and know how they’ve trained…you can’t make that statement with any authority. Can people get big doing splits? Obviously. Can people get big doing TBT? Again, it’s obvious the answer is yes. Can people do the same doing a combination of both…yes they can.

Again, the whole point of the thread is ‘What routine has worked best for you?’ If someone states it was such and such a split, you’re not in a postion to say anything otherwise. If someone says such and such TBT, again you’re not in a position to comment otherwise, not with any authority anyway. Not unless you actually knew them, trained with them, knew their strengths and weaknesses etc. Then and only then you could ‘maybe’ put forth a loose opinion. But the only thing you can state with any authority is what has worked best for YOU.

For ME, it was TBT at that time in my life and situation. That is the final authority. Have a nice day.[/quote]

This question was posted in the BODYBUILDING section of this website. I would assume what “works” would be what built someone’s body up. I don’t know if many on this site at all would consider “average weight for your height” to be “built” unless you are shredded in contest shape at that weight.

This has never made much sense to me. What works in bodybuilding is what produces above average muscle gains. It really is that simple. How else would you define what “works”?

It is great if you simply LIKE what you have done, but claiming it worked for you without gaining the muscle mass to prove it doesn’t make much sense.

The question wasn’t, “what do you like to do in the gym?”

27

[quote]xvsanta42 wrote:
When one starts to plateau on a split, TBT should be considered and vice versa…[/quote]

If gains come to a stop, I would look at diet first. Your stage of development would also be a factor. Most lifters will experience a decrease in gains compared to when they were a beginner. You simply won’t experience a constant rate of growth no matter who you are. I definitely wouldn’t make a rule that someone needs to try TBT if their gains decrease. There could be several other reasons for that, especially for someone who would be considered a beginner.

Very often, all you may need are more rest days…or fewer rest days. Maybe you need to train a muscle group more frequently, or maybe you were training too often.

28

[quote]Professor X wrote:
TRAJJ wrote:
Prof X,

You say less, I say more. Of the two of us, I’m in the position to actually know what works best for me. Having done both split and TBT, TBT was the overall best choice for me, at that point in my life, for my specific goals.

You say alot of thinks like ‘most guys’ this or that. Unless you know everyone, and know how they’ve trained…you can’t make that statement with any authority. Can people get big doing splits? Obviously. Can people get big doing TBT? Again, it’s obvious the answer is yes. Can people do the same doing a combination of both…yes they can.

Again, the whole point of the thread is ‘What routine has worked best for you?’ If someone states it was such and such a split, you’re not in a postion to say anything otherwise. If someone says such and such TBT, again you’re not in a position to comment otherwise, not with any authority anyway. Not unless you actually knew them, trained with them, knew their strengths and weaknesses etc. Then and only then you could ‘maybe’ put forth a loose opinion. But the only thing you can state with any authority is what has worked best for YOU.

For ME, it was TBT at that time in my life and situation. That is the final authority. Have a nice day.

This question was posted in the BODYBUILDING section of this website. I would assume what “works” would be what built someone’s body up. I don’t know if many on this site at all would consider “average weight for your height” to be “built” unless you are shredded in contest shape at that weight.

This has never made much sense to me. What works in bodybuilding is what produces above average muscle gains. It really is that simple. How else would you define what “works”?

It is great if you simply LIKE what you have done, but claiming it worked for you without gaining the muscle mass to prove it doesn’t make much sense.

The question wasn’t, “what do you like to do in the gym?”[/quote]

Just because a question is in the ‘BB’ forums doesn’t necessarily mean it is exclusively for something like a BB competition, nor for a competition physique. Thats another assumption on your part. BB isn’t hand in hand with competitions. BB is BUILDING your BODY. There can be quite a few goals associated with that.

You continue to harp on ‘average’ body weight. Another assumption. I’ve seen your photo, not impressed. Yeah, your big and heavy. What else ya got? If you can do a 1-20-1 on a combat pyramid then I’ll be impressed. BTW, with my ‘average’ body weight I CAN do a 1-20-1 on a combat pyramid and THEN go do a regular workout. With my ‘average’ weight I CAN press and squat much more than my BW. Body weight has little to do with strength, power, endurance etc. Lots of ‘little’ guys out there pressing 2 or more times their body weight and LOTS of big guys that can’t do a single dip or chin. I’m little impressed with ‘big’ unless you can do something with it.

I look at it this way;

  1. My overall numbers continue to improve steadily over time.
  2. My friends and co-workers make that all important statement, ‘dude, you look like you’ve been working out’.
  3. I like the results in the mirror.
  4. I FEEL good. I FEEL strong and vibrant. My LOG indicates better numbers than when I was half my age.
  5. My wife likes the way I look with my shirt off.

Those are my top 5 considerations. I don’t see your opinion among them. Go do a combat pyramid and get back to me. Have a nice day, stay safe and make good choices :slight_smile:

29

[quote]TRAJJ wrote:

Just because a question is in the ‘BB’ forums doesn’t necessarily mean it is exclusively for something like a BB competition, nor for a competition physique.[/quote]

I am a recreational bodybuilder who may or may not compete (probably will but haven’t yet). No one has written this is only for competition. What was written is that to claim something WORKED in bodybuilding would mean it actually BUILT YOUR BODY UP. You can keep pretending like a little matter like MUSCLES is irrelevant all you wish, it won’t make it go away.

[quote]

Thats another assumption on your part. BB isn’t hand in hand with competitions. BB is BUILDING your BODY. There can be quite a few goals associated with that.[/quote]

Read above.

By the way, I bet your face is flushed and your heart rate is elevated. I would watch that if I were you.

[quote]

You continue to harp on ‘average’ body weight. Another assumption. I’ve seen your photo, not impressed. Yeah, your big and heavy. What else ya got? If you can do a 1-20-1 on a combat pyramid then I’ll be impressed. BTW, with my ‘average’ body weight I CAN do a 1-20-1 on a combat pyramid and THEN go do a regular workout. With my ‘average’ weight I CAN press and squat much more than my BW. Body weight has little to do with strength, power, endurance etc. Lots of ‘little’ guys out there pressing 2 or more times their body weight and LOTS of big guys that can’t do a single dip or chin. I’m little impressed with ‘big’ unless you can do something with it. [/quote]

I’m sorry, but why would I be doing a “combat pyramid”? I lift weights for strength and size, not to do “combat pyramids” even though I have trained in boxing and some martial arts. Again, this is the BODYBUILDING FORUM, not the “who can do more combat pyramids” forum. Still skipping around that whole muscle mass issue, huh?

Good for you. Cookies are to your right. You still haven’t explained why muscle mass isn’t important when describing what WORKS on a BODYBUILDING FORUM.

Plan to get to that in your next post or will I get more about how you feel?

Feelings are good.

31

Prof: You seem to regard the bodybuilding forum as existing primarily for classic “bodybuilding” (i.e. muscle growth) discussion. While I can understand and respect this, the forums are fairly limited in terms of where to post things that dont fall directly into the category of muscle building or strength.

Combat training, biomechanics, sport specific skills, endurance athletics, and many other subjects dont fall in either category, yet they’re not beginners questions or off topic. For example, if someone wants to start a thread about how to improve sprint times, where would you suggest they post it?

I have no problem with you wanting to keep the bodybuilding forum on topic, I’m just making the point that many threads that don’t technically belong here tend to pop up because this forum is the closest fit.

32

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Prof: You seem to regard the bodybuilding forum as existing primarily for classic “bodybuilding” (i.e. muscle growth) discussion. While I can understand and respect this, the forums are fairly limited in terms of where to post things that dont fall directly into the category of muscle building or strength.

Combat training, biomechanics, sport specific skills, endurance athletics, and many other subjects dont fall in either category, yet they’re not beginners questions or off topic. For example, if someone wants to start a thread about how to improve sprint times, where would you suggest they post it?

I have no problem with you wanting to keep the bodybuilding forum on topic, I’m just making the point that many threads that don’t technically belong here tend to pop up because this forum is the closest fit.[/quote]

Dude, when someone writes…IN THE BODYBUILDING FORUM…what has worked best for you, they are probably not talking about “combat pyramids”. I am not sure why that needs an explanation here, but apparently some of you have lost your way.

33

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Feelings are good.

Damn, the Prof goes emo!

Bushy[/quote]

I am applying eye shadow as we speak.

Damn these long lashes o’ mine.

35

[quote]Professor X wrote:
CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Prof: You seem to regard the bodybuilding forum as existing primarily for classic “bodybuilding” (i.e. muscle growth) discussion. While I can understand and respect this, the forums are fairly limited in terms of where to post things that dont fall directly into the category of muscle building or strength.

Combat training, biomechanics, sport specific skills, endurance athletics, and many other subjects dont fall in either category, yet they’re not beginners questions or off topic. For example, if someone wants to start a thread about how to improve sprint times, where would you suggest they post it?

I have no problem with you wanting to keep the bodybuilding forum on topic, I’m just making the point that many threads that don’t technically belong here tend to pop up because this forum is the closest fit.

Dude, when someone writes…IN THE BODYBUILDING FORUM…what has worked best for you, they are probably not talking about “combat pyramids”. I am not sure why that needs an explanation here, but apparently some of you have lost your way.[/quote]

Fair enough.

36

I could not agree more with Prof X. Prof explains himself excellently and I am surprised he has not written some articles for us here. But then again - and I am sure he might even agree with me about this one - there is nothing new to write about regarding bodyduilng training. Consider the fact that nearly every new book that comes out on the topic has nothing new to offer but are still great for those that have not been exposed to some good literature. I digress.

I agree with Push. When I was in college, the more muscular football players used to work out like every other average schmoe in the gym on their own time, on split routines! I even remember a time when I was trying to get jacked in my early 20s and I started to experiment with these full body or upper/lower highly technical programs offered here on T-Mag. I did make some gains but not the kind I was looking for.

Actually, I think I looked worse from an aesthetic point of view. Couple this with the fact that my more jacked friends would often ask me “what the fuck are you doing?!” Now I know why they would ask this.

I am not saying it is “bad” to follow any routine you like. I have no problem with anyone’s physical ambitions and practices. If you like TBT or any other program, then go for it! If you are HAPPY with what you are doing in any area of life (career, working out, social life) then that is GREAT! But I can’t agree more with Prof.

We can say split routines are BETTER THAN others for building muscle mass simply because these routines have reliably built the best physiques in the world over a long period of time!
Most of the people who follow TBT routines do not look anything like a bodybuilder. I remember Alwyn Cosgrove stating that the time when bodybuilders crossed over from TBT to split routines was the same time when drug use became popular, insinuating that the reason why they turned to such routines is because they could now recover from the higher volume and stress of such routines.

I do not think he considered the fact that such a crossover could have been an evolution in training to reach newer heights of achievement in muscle mass gains. The bodybuilders of today are not just bigger because of drug use. They are bigger from the higher amount of drugs AND better training and nutrition habits.
The answer to haulted progress is not simply switching to a TBT routine.

Dorian packed on a considerable amount of muscle in 1993 after 10 years of training due to better nutrition and adjustments in his routine (this is the year he switched to 1 set instead of 2). He made previous adjustments in his trainng throughout his career as well.

Cosgrove apparently did not observe that every natural competitor follows a split routine as well, most of whom have a wife, a job, and perhaps some kids. Lifting does not pay the bills for nearly all of us! But these men continue to come out in great shape!
I also hear about bodybuilders not being able to “perform” and they are dysfunctional very often.

Let us think about what a BBer’s aims are:

  1. Gain as much mass as possible
  2. Have a low level of bodyfat
  3. Have an aesthetically pleasant physique (symmetry, lack of glaring weaknesses)
    If a split routine helps him reach these aims, how is he being “dysunctional”? It appears functional to me when someone is doing something that is helping him/her achieve a goal! Can someone argue with this?!

And then there is the performance thing. Maybe BB is not a sport. Perhaps it is more like a show. However, bodybuilders do not get judged on how well they physically perform, so why bother criticizing them for such a matter. It is similar to one criticizing a basketball player for not being good at golf. It is irrelevant.

37

[quote]xvsanta42 wrote:
When one starts to plateau on a split, TBT should be considered and vice versa…
[/quote]

Not really, IMO.

TBT aren’t that useful for intermediate or advanced lifter if their goal is hypertrophy so switching for the sake of switching isn’t useful. The only advanced lifter I know who use TBT are Olympic lifters and, IMO, they can get away with it because the olympic lifts aren’t the slow grinding ones that take a toll on the your joints (no, I have no study confirming this) and the eccentric portion of the lifts are greatly minimized.

Now, I hate to ‘fetch’ quotes from authors to prove a point, but it they are better received on this site than pointing out to “real life” examples.

Here is a post AC shared on the subject:

[quote]AC wrote:

If the goal is just hypertrophy - initially - or if time is a challenge – full body will be preferable. Frequency is the biggest factor in success at that point.

However at some point I think you’re going to need a certain volume ‘threshold’ per muscle group. And it’s too hard to get that volume for every muscle in the session without training for hours. And the longer the workout - the more the intensity starts to suffer.

So then I think an upper-lower split is the way to go.

After that - I’d go to a further split. Maybe even going as far as to do two upper body workouts (push and pull, or horizontal and vertical) and two lower body workouts (quad and ham dominant) over 8-10 days.

A beginner can probably completely work and develop a body part with good intensity in 2-3 sets.

So if each set is about 30-60s long, with a 90s or so rest period - you can get a lot done (20+ sets) in a one hour session.

As you develop - you need more volume per muscle group or movement - and as you are stronger - probably more warm up sets and additional exercises. (If you are bench pressing 135 - a warm up set of 45 and one at 95 is enough. If you’re benching 315 - then you’ll need a few more warm up sets - all of which takes time).

It just becomes a time issue at that point so some type of a split is preferable unless you have all day to train!

Also - as you progress - your intensity per exercise goes up. Heavier loading requires longer rests between sets – so you can’t get it all done in one session.

Besides - it’s pretty hard for an advanced lifter to do much of anything after heavy squats - let alone try to do heavy back work or chest work – so it makes sense to split up the routine at that point so that a) you are fresh and b)you can get the workout done in a reasonable time frame.

–
AC [/quote]

My interpretation of what he wrote is that as lifters get stronger they need more time to recuperate from a specific session. Because of that workouts have to evolves from a higher frequency (like TBT) to moderate splits (upper lower) to eventually full blown splits.

Of course which routine you should use should match your current development.

Oddly enough this seems to match reality. Guys who claim to be making the best gains ever on a TBT coincidentally usually look like rank beginners and guys who are advanced bodybuilders or powerlifters use some type of split (with Oly lifters being the exception for the reasons stated above).

38

In my opinion this TBT vs split debate really doesnt make much sense, i think witch one is better its much more about the weekly scheudle of the person, as well as personal experience than anything else.
For the last few years i’ve been doing TBT workouts because training 3x a week suits well my weekly routine and i prefer ending a workout exausted and with a high heart rate and dont care much about the pump. But when i was doing weight training right before muay thai training, a split worked better, today i would go as far as doing just 1 or 2 exercises a day. Its all about personal preference and what suits or scheudle…

Even comparing to what pro bodybuilders do is pointless: i really believe that isnt that much gap between bodybuilders and strength athletes in both muscle mass and strength(in general not competitive lifts for 1RM), so its hard to say that bodypart splits is better for mass and TBT and upper lower splits are better for strength.

39

What routine worked best for me? Eating enough, sleeping enough, working hard enough, and listening to my body.

Thats the routine that will work best for you, regardless of if you’re doing 5x5 or 10x3 or westside or TBT or ABBH or GVT or EDT or… you get the picture.

40

X
‘I am a recreational bodybuilder who may or may not compete (probably will but haven’t yet).’

Good for you, hope you do well. I’m a bodybuilder that trains for strength, explosive power, endurance and as an assistance to the martial arts I teach. I also train to assist in keeping my self safe in my career. To that end, so far so good.

X
‘What was written is that to claim something WORKED in bodybuilding would mean it actually BUILT YOUR BODY UP. You can keep pretending like a little matter like MUSCLES is irrelevant all you wish, it won’t make it go away.’

Never said anything against muscle mass. You need to read more than you post, might help. I’ve regained 0ver 20 lbs of muscle mass using TBT as a tool. I’m currently 180lbs. I never said that was my goal or where I’ve stopped. I’m gaining in a progressive manner and that is where I’m at now. And MORE importantly, it is a solid 180 that looks good and feels good. No tummy or love handles. That way when I hit 185, 190, 200 I still feel and look good with no tummy. No need to where a t-shirt when taking a picture of myself in the mirror…Not that I would anyway.

X
'Read above.

By the way, I bet your face is flushed and your heart rate is elevated. I would watch that if I were you.’

Uh…what? I was on the fence whether you were just a serious poster, a troll or an idiot. Your making the choice a little easier.

X
‘I’m sorry, but why would I be doing a “combat pyramid”? I lift weights for strength and size, not to do “combat pyramids”’

Maybe you should. Then you could take your shirt off when snapping your photo. They’re a great tool to use in BODY BUILDING.

Hey, if just being ‘big’ is your goal, more power to you. I have different goals. Size and strength are a part of it, but not the only thing. I’ve posted what is working for ME. Why not doing something really novel and actually post something on-topic…like what worked for you. Otherwise, you don’t belong in the thread sport.

X
‘Again, this is the BODYBUILDING FORUM, not the “who can do more combat pyramids” forum.’

It IS the bodybuilding forum. That can and DOES include a large variety of TOOLS for a variety of GOALS. Shame you’re not ‘getting’ that. Open your mind and close your mouth. It would do you a world of good. You may even learn something you didn’t know before.

What a novel thought.

Now rather than going back and forth and taking more out of this thread, how about posting what works for YOU. That will benefit the OP, maybe others and perhaps ME as well as I’m always willing to learn from others experience rather than knocking what is different from mine.

Have a nice day.