What Price for White Skin?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[ /quote]

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.[/quote]

The problem is, illegtimacy didn’t reverse, stall, or at least grow at a much slower rate since educational/career opportunities have opened up. The rates have exploded. Folks, 70% is devestating. You think the black community has some issues now? Wait to these chilren reach their late teens…We’ve seen the negative effects of broken homes surface in study after study. Again, 70% is devestating.

142

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Sorry, didn’t see this post. But here’s your response, as requested.

  1. I delivered pizzas for 2 years, and black guys don’t tip as well as white guys. Maybe that’s why the cabbies avoid them.

  2. Maybe they don’t dress ridiculously. I’m saying that things like clothing style and ebonics are so embedded in the culture it’s not something they can turn off at the drop of a hat so it still comes across during interviews. Maybe they don’t even know their shirt is a little too baggy. Maybe they don’t realized they’re using words like “nah”. That’s what I’m getting at.

I am being honest with you when I say that your perspective is truly fucked up. I don’t even disrespect you as a person…but what you keep typing is really making me wonder what kind of neighborhood you grew up in. A black man could be wearing a designer suit made from the hair of virgin Pakistani slave girls and he will STILL have a hard time getting a cab.

If you actually blame this on any other reason than that they are black, there is a problem.

Just because you can try to rationalize everything away doesn’t mean it makes any sense.[/quote]

I grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood. I don’t see how that is relevant.

And as far as a black guy trying to get a cab in new york, I’m afraid I lost what your point was in all the banter. I’m sure their was one, but I don’t remember. If I knew what you were trying to get at, I’d be able to respond more appropriately.

143

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…I’m going to be less successful at 11am…

Shit, can he be more successful considering his background? I don’t see someone wanting to be like Puff daddy or Jay Z as being a negative, especially since both men are educated and have basically changed the face of music and even fashion.

What sad is that regardless of how succesful they are…some people still paint a negative picture of them…interesting,huh?

Puff daddy was one of the first to even popularize wearing a suit in a rap video but I am sure most of “white America” still sees him as a negative influence.[/quote]

No worse than most other music artists, white or black. People have always looked down on rockers, hell people even looked down on Frank Sinatra, thought he was a (skinny) thug.

144

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:

The difference is, some of what you’ve written isn’t even correct. It would take one ignorant fucker to go to a job interview dressed like he just left his girl’s house and dressed in the car. That didn’t stop you from generalizing that “most blacks” do just that.

It is, however, very correct about how many white people exercise “caution” and who they direct it towards. In fact, most who actually debated that aspect proved this in the other thread.

I have no doubt that whites use extra caution when passing a black guy dressed in gangsta wear on the street. I think you have the crimes rates among blacks to blame for that. Just a generalization, regardless if you are a criminal or not. The statistics show this.

And you’re right, it does take an ignorant mother fucker to go to a job interview like that. So why do people do it?

If you don’t think they do, then hear me out. A black guy with only a highschool diploma can get any job interview a white guy with the same qualifications could get. So why does the white have a better job? He presents himself better. So while the black guy may have not gone to the interview in a shirt 6 times too big, there was something about his appearance/image/the way he conducted himself that made the employer hire the white dude instead. If you want to cry racism every time something like this happens, well then you’re digging your own grave and will not overcome these obstacles.

This may surprise you (because you seem blind to a lot of things) but there are white people (quite a few) who are more cautious of black men regardless of what they wear.

Ask a black man from New York how much trouble he has finding a cab and if it is because he is “dressed like a thug”.

The fact that you are still sticking to some fantasy where most black people dress ridiculously for job interviews and THAT is why we have been held back is too ridiculous for words.

Sorry, didn’t see this post. But here’s your response, as requested.

  1. I delivered pizzas for 2 years, and black guys don’t tip as well as white guys. Maybe that’s why the cabbies avoid them.

  2. Maybe they don’t dress ridiculously. I’m saying that things like clothing style and ebonics are so embedded in the culture it’s not something they can turn off at the drop of a hat so it still comes across during interviews. Maybe they don’t even know their shirt is a little too baggy. Maybe they don’t realized they’re using words like “nah”. That’s what I’m getting at.[/quote]

Tip as well as whites? maybe because they didn’t earn as much as the white guy.

145

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?

Flawed logic. The point is, any level of success is a minority pursuit because most people won’t be THAT successful no matter the circumstances. That means whether they look up to Jay Z or Dr. Debakey, the chances of them reaching that level are STILL slim.[/quote]

Looking up to a doctor still puts the person in a better position. He will get an education, and while he may never reach the level of success as Dr. Phil, he’ll still have a good job. Trying to become the next big rapper has no safety net.

146

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.

The problem is, illegtimacy didn’t reverse, stall, or at least grow at a much slower rate since educational/career opportunities have opened up. The rates have exploded. Folks, 70% is devestating. You think the black community has some issues now? Wait to these chilren reach their late teens…We’ve seen the negative effects of broken homes surface in study after study. Again, 70% is devestating.[/quote]

I didn’t check your link, what is the change in white illegitimacy in the last 40 years?

I know a lot of white kids whose parents never married. Growing up that was a rare thing, now it is common but I am am sure it is not near 70%.

147

[quote]Qaash wrote:

Tip as well as whites? maybe because they didn’t earn as much as the white guy.

[/quote]

I’m not even going to defend the tip comment because I did forget what x’s cabbie argument was all about. But, even if that were the reason they tip less, you can’t blame the cabbie for not picking them up. Not racism, just a better financial decision.

148

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?

Flawed logic. The point is, any level of success is a minority pursuit because most people won’t be THAT successful no matter the circumstances. That means whether they look up to Jay Z or Dr. Debakey, the chances of them reaching that level are STILL slim.

Looking up to a doctor still puts the person in a better position. He will get an education, and while he may never reach the level of success as Dr. Phil, he’ll still have a good job. Trying to become the next big rapper has no safety net.[/quote]

I think that is simply a matter of what you were raised around or your own personal goals. My main goal at the age of 17 was to get a record deal. I still have most of my recording as I entered the negotiation stage with Elektra records. My parents wouldn’t allow that to happen, however and even though I was in college by then, I was still underaged. I lost that contract and didn’t get another.

My own personal stance was that I needed something to fall back on either way…so I stayed in college and did well. That doesn’t mean my original goal was less significant or that I should have avoided wanting to do that in life.

I will also say that unless you yourself are a success at whatever, it makes no sense to tell others what they should be doing.

149

White people hate Puffy because all he did was go thru old records and add a baseline.

When i walk down the street and see a black person dressed like a thug, I don’t get scared at all, cuz I know that if he starts showing signs of aggression all I have to do is offer him a job and he will take off running like a girly man. JK guys relax.

150

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.

The problem is, illegtimacy didn’t reverse, stall, or at least grow at a much slower rate since educational/career opportunities have opened up. The rates have exploded. Folks, 70% is devestating. You think the black community has some issues now? Wait to these chilren reach their late teens…We’ve seen the negative effects of broken homes surface in study after study. Again, 70% is devestating.

I didn’t check your link, what is the change in white illegitimacy in the last 40 years?

I know a lot of white kids whose parents never married. Growing up that was a rare thing, now it is common but I am am sure it is not near 70%. [/quote]

Good question. Illegtimacy rates among whites have reached 26.6. In 1990 it was 16.9%. Getting worse! Well, that’s one way to close the achievement gap, I suppose. If white’s can catch up to 70%, that is. Of course, we’d live in a third world nation at that point.

151

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.

…

I didn’t check your link, what is the change in white illegitimacy in the last 40 years?

I know a lot of white kids whose parents never married. Growing up that was a rare thing, now it is common but I am am sure it is not near 70%. [/quote]

Without looking, you’re correct - illegitmacy rates were increasing for all ethnicities. I believe that welfare reform in 1996 stemmed this trend a little bit. A lot of cultural factors played into the trendline.

152

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.[/quote]

Exactly.

And what has to be adressed is that individuals are inherently unwilling and unable to look in the mirror and say to themselves “You know,I am responsible for the current situation.If my attitudes don’t alter,the situation isn’t going to change”

That just makes people waaaaaay too uncomfortable.

Much easier to chalk it up to somebody else.

and this applies to both sides of any argument.

But unfortunately,when one is in the majority group and all comfy with the status quo,that makes it all the more difficult to find the motivation to change one’s point of view.

But the kicker is that,being in the majority,one will have the biggest effect on the situation,and hence,in my opinion,the onus rests heavier on the majority to effect any positive change.

Will that happen?Personally I don’t think so.

We live in the era of…

“I’m ok Jack,pull up the ladder.”

153

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.

…

I didn’t check your link, what is the change in white illegitimacy in the last 40 years?

I know a lot of white kids whose parents never married. Growing up that was a rare thing, now it is common but I am am sure it is not near 70%.

Without looking, you’re correct - illegitmacy rates were increasing for all ethnicities. I believe that welfare reform in 1996 stemmed this trend a little bit. A lot of cultural factors played into the trendline.[/quote]

Yep. Our culture(s) and the welfare state will rot this country from the inside out.

154

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?

Flawed logic. The point is, any level of success is a minority pursuit because most people won’t be THAT successful no matter the circumstances. That means whether they look up to Jay Z or Dr. Debakey, the chances of them reaching that level are STILL slim.

Looking up to a doctor still puts the person in a better position. He will get an education, and while he may never reach the level of success as Dr. Phil, he’ll still have a good job. Trying to become the next big rapper has no safety net.[/quote]

You are aware that black MD’s exist, right?..kids do grow-up, it’s called rebellion, you remember that don’t you?

155

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.

Exactly.

And what has to be adressed is that individuals are inherently unwilling and unable to look in the mirror and say to themselves “You know,I am responsible for the current situation.If my attitudes don’t alter,the situation isn’t going to change”

That just makes people waaaaaay too uncomfortable.

Much easier to chalk it up to somebody else.

and this applies to both sides of any argument.

But unfortunately,when one is in the majority group and all comfy with the status quo,that makes it all the more difficult to find the motivation to change one’s point of view.

But the kicker is that,being in the majority,one will have the biggest effect on the situation,and hence,in my opinion,the onus rests heavier on the majority to effect any positive change.

Will that happen?Personally I don’t think so.

We live in the era of…

“I’m ok Jack,pull up the ladder.”[/quote]

What kind of change are you talking about? You want me to marry the abandoned mother and raise the absent father’s child?! No!

156

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?

Flawed logic. The point is, any level of success is a minority pursuit because most people won’t be THAT successful no matter the circumstances. That means whether they look up to Jay Z or Dr. Debakey, the chances of them reaching that level are STILL slim.

Looking up to a doctor still puts the person in a better position. He will get an education, and while he may never reach the level of success as Dr. Phil, he’ll still have a good job. Trying to become the next big rapper has no safety net.

I think that is simply a matter of what you were raised around or your own personal goals. My main goal at the age of 17 was to get a record deal. I still have most of my recording as I entered the negotiation stage with Elektra records. My parents wouldn’t allow that to happen, however and even though I was in college by then, I was still underaged. I lost that contract and didn’t get another.

My own personal stance was that I needed something to fall back on either way…so I stayed in college and did well. That doesn’t mean my original goal was less significant or that I should have avoided wanting to do that in life.

I will also say that unless you yourself are a success at whatever, it makes no sense to tell others what they should be doing.[/quote]

Agreed, if you have a backup plan such as getting an education than go for that record deal. Most black kids end up not getting the record deal and being in bad shape. If it’s a matter of how you were raised than who’s fault is that? Whitey? I don’t think so.

And yes, I’m already more successful than my parents, and make significantly more than the country average and I’m soon to be 23. So I’d like to think I’ve got a good head on my shoulders.

157

[quote]Qaash wrote:

You are aware that black MD’s exist, right?..kids do grow-up, it’s called rebellion, you remember that don’t you?[/quote]

This is the last time I’m going to say this in this thread. I’m GENERALIZING. Keep pointing out the exceptions all you want. Doesn’t change the way things are.

158

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.

Exactly.

And what has to be adressed is that individuals are inherently unwilling and unable to look in the mirror and say to themselves “You know,I am responsible for the current situation.If my attitudes don’t alter,the situation isn’t going to change”

That just makes people waaaaaay too uncomfortable.

Much easier to chalk it up to somebody else.

and this applies to both sides of any argument.

But unfortunately,when one is in the majority group and all comfy with the status quo,that makes it all the more difficult to find the motivation to change one’s point of view.

But the kicker is that,being in the majority,one will have the biggest effect on the situation,and hence,in my opinion,the onus rests heavier on the majority to effect any positive change.

Will that happen?Personally I don’t think so.

We live in the era of…

“I’m ok Jack,pull up the ladder.”

What kind of change are you talking about? You want me to marry and raise the absent father’s child?! No! [/quote]

I’m talking about how people view each other,their historical backgrounds ,the cause and effect of the past,and of looking beyond their own pet view of theories of how things are,and that there may,just may,be another explanation or reasons why things are the way they are.

To try to not be bound by one’s mental constructs to the point that they exclude any other viable view point.

To entertain the notion that one can say “I don’t know” or I’m not sure"
or “You may be right” and that this will not lead to the fall of civilization as we know it.

159

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.

Exactly.

And what has to be adressed is that individuals are inherently unwilling and unable to look in the mirror and say to themselves “You know,I am responsible for the current situation.If my attitudes don’t alter,the situation isn’t going to change”

That just makes people waaaaaay too uncomfortable.

Much easier to chalk it up to somebody else.

and this applies to both sides of any argument.

But unfortunately,when one is in the majority group and all comfy with the status quo,that makes it all the more difficult to find the motivation to change one’s point of view.

But the kicker is that,being in the majority,one will have the biggest effect on the situation,and hence,in my opinion,the onus rests heavier on the majority to effect any positive change.

Will that happen?Personally I don’t think so.

We live in the era of…

“I’m ok Jack,pull up the ladder.”[/quote]

How am I responsible for the current situation? Just by virtue of being in the perceived majority? Well you did it. You have applied the parameters that make me guilty. My fault. Shit we can move on now.

Wait, that’s maybe what the majority is objecting to in the first place.

Not much fun being in the majority anymore. :frowning:

160

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

I’m talking about how people view each other,their historical backgrounds ,the cause and effect of the past,and of looking beyond their own pet view of theories of how things are,and that there may,just may,be another explanation or reasons why things are the way they are.

To try to not be bound by one’s mental constructs to the point that they exclude any other viable view point.

To entertain the notion that one can say “I don’t know” or I’m not sure"
or “You may be right” and that this will not lead to the fall of civilization as we know it.[/quote]

The only problem with this is that you want all the whites to change the way we think, but refuse to change the way you think. I agree racism still exists, and it’s a problem. Do you agree that blacks (in general) do not help their own cause when it comes to being viewed without these negative connotations?