What Price for White Skin?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]How can you possibly argue against the position that IN GENERAL because of past actions, the average white person is in better social standing the average black person?

Honestly, how the fuck could you even debate that? [/quote]

For the same reason Bill Cosby and Walter Williams do. Crime rates and poor school performance are linked to fatherlessness, which is high in the black community, and much, much higher now than when black fathers were being separated from their wives due to slavery and being “sold down the river”.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=29721

You want it both ways here: you argue that no one culture is better than the other except when it comes to “white culture,” which isn’t monolithic even in the USA. If we’re going to examine “what truly happened,” what standard are we using for “truth,” yours? If so, why is yours the only one that is valid?

62

[quote]Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:

WHO is dressing like this for job interviews?

Where are they?

Philadelphia, from my experience. I doubt it’s much different anywhere else.

The thing with the “anti-culture” aka the hip hop culture it is considered cool to not be fake and “keep it real.”

On a job interview, there is no keeping it real. If you know what’s best for you, you’ll say what needs to be said to impress the employer.

According to you, the majority of blacks in Philly all speak in slang at job interviews and wear hip hop clothing while speaking to their prospective employers?

Please, back this up with something.[/quote]

Yeah, I’ve conducted my own studies. Seriously, did you not read where I said “from my experience”?

Do me a favor, don’t put words in my mouth (all black people are lazy and don’t want to work?) or conveniently “forget” to read little parts of what I write. Like “as a generalization” or “from my experience”.

If you do me that favor, we can actually have a discussion that makes sense.

All I’m trying to get at is the changes that blacks, as a GENERALIZATION, should make to be more successful, but have not.

63

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

It’s an interesting effect, but I don’t think it’s generalizable because each individual is going to use his own yardstick, and it’s going to be influenced by his perceptions. There may be some whites who are “downplaying the cost” (in quotes because to me it wasn’t calculated or attributed properly) because they are racist - but that can’t be attributable for each person who disagrees with the researchers’ contentions.

As for meaningful dialogue, I think it’s prevented because people are too emotionally involved in their beliefs on the topic of race - they get offended easily, on both sides. And you add the “us” and “them” breakdown inherent in the question to people who are defensive about being blamed for things they personally had nothing to do with, on the one side, or people who have historical grievances they want to air, on the other, and it doesn’t progress very far.

Professor X wrote:

Tell me how people can be a part of a society yet at the same time feel they bare no responsibility for the actions of that society based on their own social standing?[/quote]

We’re all part of society. But the only actions for which I bear any responsibility are my own (and now my kid’s, at least until he’s 18). How can it be that I am responsible for “white society” but you’re not responsible for a higher rate of violent criminal behavior by “black society”? I’d say it’s not possible - and that neither one of us is responsible for someone else’s acts.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

While I know that most whites living today may have had little DIRECT influence on the degradation of blacks in this country, they are still a part of the same society that did. That same society is what allowed their own ancestors less in the way of hardships than their much darker counterparts (even if some of you claim your family came from wherever and didn’t personally own a slave)…which translates into greater economic and social wealth. As such, the ramifications extend across generations until we reach this moment in time.[/quote]

I’m not responsible for “society” - I’m responsible for my own beliefs and actions. FYI, I had no members of my family living in the United States pre Civil War. I don’t think any of my ancestors ever lived south of the Mason-Dixon line, at any time, until I spent 3 years in Nashville for law school. But that’s not really relevant; even if none of that were true, I still would not be responsible for “society” in the pre Civil War era. I’m not responsible for “society” now, any more than any other citizen of any race, hue, or ethnicity.

You’re not guaranteed an equal starting point in life. Michael Jordan’s kid is going to start out ahead of mine. My kid is going to start out ahead of my brother-in-law’s kid. Your kid, should you have one, will start out ahead of the kid of some poor FOB pregnant Russian immigrant who arrives the day your future kid is born.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I see no possible way to reach a solution as long as most of the country acts like they hold no responsibility at all.

It simply can’t work that way.

Mind you, I think simple acknowledgment would go a long way but we can’t even get that on a grand scale.[/quote]

Most of the country has no responsibility at all.

And to look at it from another perspective, if you were right, what about people like Obama, with both white and black ancestry? Or what about black people who came to the U.S. post-1865? What about “white” people who are part Asian, or part Hispanic? How exactly are we going to divvy up all of that blame?

64

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:

WHO is dressing like this for job interviews?

Where are they?

Philadelphia, from my experience. I doubt it’s much different anywhere else.

The thing with the “anti-culture” aka the hip hop culture it is considered cool to not be fake and “keep it real.”

On a job interview, there is no keeping it real. If you know what’s best for you, you’ll say what needs to be said to impress the employer.

According to you, the majority of blacks in Philly all speak in "slang at job interviews and wear hip hop clothing while speaking to their prospective employers?

Please, back this up with something.

Yeah, I’ve conducted my own studies. Seriously, did you not read where I said “from my experience”?

Do me a favor, don’t put words in my mouth (all black people are lazy and don’t want to work?) or conveniently “forget” to read little parts of what I write. Like “as a generalization” or “from my experience”.

If you do me that favor, we can actually have a discussion that makes sense.

All I’m trying to get at is the changes that blacks, as a GENERALIZATION, should make to be more successful, but have not.
[/quote]

These changes you’re talking about, “thug wear”, the use of ebonics and everything else generally associated with Black culture are things that take place outside of a work environment. Depending on where one works, “we” know how to act the part on the job but there is nothing I can do to change “your” perception if I change into my more comfortable clothing and you identify it as “thug wear”.

65

[quote]Qaash wrote:

These changes you’re talking about, “thug wear”, the use of ebonics and everything else generally associated with Black culture are things that take place outside of a work environment. Depending on where one works, “we” know how to act the part on the job but there is nothing I can do to change “your” perception if I change into my more comfortable clothing and you identify it as “thug wear”. [/quote]

You may change that at the work place. Blacks I know or have crossed paths with do not. They work as a cashier at target (to use X’s example) because they don’t have to switch it up there.

Did you know it was a better idea to get an education than to try to be the next big rapper in order to be successful? If you did, I applaud you. If you did not, you are with the majority of blacks, and have no right complaining about why you aren’t being given certain things.

Just to clear this up, I agree blacks do have more to overcome, but it is not impossible and you guys make it seem like it is.

66

I wonder what his answer would have been in that survey.

67

[quote]Qaash wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:

WHO is dressing like this for job interviews?

Where are they?

Philadelphia, from my experience. I doubt it’s much different anywhere else.

The thing with the “anti-culture” aka the hip hop culture it is considered cool to not be fake and “keep it real.”

On a job interview, there is no keeping it real. If you know what’s best for you, you’ll say what needs to be said to impress the employer.

According to you, the majority of blacks in Philly all speak in "slang at job interviews and wear hip hop clothing while speaking to their prospective employers?

Please, back this up with something.

Yeah, I’ve conducted my own studies. Seriously, did you not read where I said “from my experience”?

Do me a favor, don’t put words in my mouth (all black people are lazy and don’t want to work?) or conveniently “forget” to read little parts of what I write. Like “as a generalization” or “from my experience”.

If you do me that favor, we can actually have a discussion that makes sense.

All I’m trying to get at is the changes that blacks, as a GENERALIZATION, should make to be more successful, but have not.

These changes you’re talking about, “thug wear”, the use of ebonics and everything else generally associated with Black culture are things that take place outside of a work environment. Depending on where one works, “we” know how to act the part on the job but there is nothing I can do to change “your” perception if I change into my more comfortable clothing and you identify it as “thug wear”. [/quote]

We also shouldn’t be expected, outside of work, to conform to what makes the average white guy comfortable just so we don’t cause someone to be more “cautious” around us. That “caution” is what Obama was referring to in his speech. Somehow this was lost in the intense focus on “typical white person”…as if it was a lie.

68

[quote]Professor X wrote:

We also shouldn’t be expected, outside of work, to conform to what makes the average white guy comfortable just so we don’t cause someone to be more “cautious” around us. That “caution” is what Obama was referring to in his speech. Somehow this was lost in the intense focus on “typical white person”…as if it was a lie.[/quote]

I agree with that. I don’t even have a problem with his “typical white person” quote. But if that’s the case, you shouldn’t have a problem with my “typical black person” logic, as I’m just generalizing.

69

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Tell me how people can be a part of a society yet at the same time feel they bare no responsibility for the actions of that society based on their own social standing?

While I know that most whites living today may have had little DIRECT influence on the degradation of blacks in this country, they are still a part of the same society that did. That same society is what allowed their own ancestors less in the way of hardships than their much darker counterparts (even if some of you claim your family came from wherever and didn’t personally own a slave)…which translates into greater economic and social wealth. As such, the ramifications extend across generations until we reach this moment in time.

I see no possible way to reach a solution as long as most of the country acts like they hold no responsibility at all.

It simply can’t work that way.

Mind you, I think simple acknowledgment would go a long way but we can’t even get that on a grand scale.

Bullshit. You want white America to take the blame for what happened in the past. I have nothing to fucking apologize for.

When will the black man get past the damn Great Society bullshit, and take some responsibility for his own situation?

How in the flying fuck is it a white problem that the black man can’t be a damn father? You know you are in the minority of your own race having an educated father, right?

There will always be a race problem until blacks get past thinking they are owed a fucking welfare check, and a pat on the back for yet another illegitimate, fatherless child.

I don’t see how absent fathers places in the race argument but I do agree about people feeling they are owed something.

The blacks have been brainwashed since 1964 that they are worthless and helpless, and that they can only get by with special rules.

Jim Crowe was real and at the time made those laws necessary.

You guys should have listened to X instead of MLK.

At which point in his life are you referring to? X wasn’t always militant towards the end of his life.

But just like slavery, you can’t undo the past. There will always be excuses, and attempts at rationalizing one’s condition.

Again, I agree…what’s you’re suggestion?

Just like in the gym, you either make the effort, or you don’t. Blaming someone else because you are small, or poor, or disadvantaged is a cop out.

70

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Tell me how people can be a part of a society yet at the same time feel they bare no responsibility for the actions of that society based on their own social standing?

While I know that most whites living today may have had little DIRECT influence on the degradation of blacks in this country, they are still a part of the same society that did. That same society is what allowed their own ancestors less in the way of hardships than their much darker counterparts (even if some of you claim your family came from wherever and didn’t personally own a slave)…which translates into greater economic and social wealth. As such, the ramifications extend across generations until we reach this moment in time.

I see no possible way to reach a solution as long as most of the country acts like they hold no responsibility at all.

It simply can’t work that way.

Mind you, I think simple acknowledgment would go a long way but we can’t even get that on a grand scale.

Bullshit. You want white America to take the blame for what happened in the past. I have nothing to fucking apologize for.

When will the black man get past the damn Great Society bullshit, and take some responsibility for his own situation?

How in the flying fuck is it a white problem that the black man can’t be a damn father? You know you are in the minority of your own race having an educated father, right?

There will always be a race problem until blacks get past thinking they are owed a fucking welfare check, and a pat on the back for yet another illegitimate, fatherless child.

The blacks have been brainwashed since 1964 that they are worthless and helpless, and that they can only get by with special rules.

You guys should have listened to X instead of MLK.

But just like slavery, you can’t undo the past. There will always be excuses, and attempts at rationalizing one’s condition.

Just like in the gym, you either make the effort, or you don’t. Blaming someone else because you are small, or poor, or disadvantaged is a cop out.

[/quote]

Blaming someone else because they blame every single shortcoming on the individual and not the circumstances that got them there is not a cop out.

It is a fact that on average, until the late 90’s, most blacks were making less than most whites if you go by the research done around those time periods. How can someone say this has no effect on social standing?

Shouldn’t that receive some blame for why many blacks were held back from the progress they could have made?

How is pointing that out somehow claiming that blacks hold no personal responsibility?

How is pointing that out not a means of describing that society as a whole was also at fault?

71

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:

We also shouldn’t be expected, outside of work, to conform to what makes the average white guy comfortable just so we don’t cause someone to be more “cautious” around us. That “caution” is what Obama was referring to in his speech. Somehow this was lost in the intense focus on “typical white person”…as if it was a lie.

I agree with that. I don’t even have a problem with his “typical white person” quote. But if that’s the case, you shouldn’t have a problem with my “typical black person” logic, as I’m just generalizing.[/quote]

The difference is, some of what you’ve written isn’t even correct. It would take one ignorant fucker to go to a job interview dressed like he just left his girl’s house and dressed in the car. That didn’t stop you from generalizing that “most blacks” do just that.

It is, however, very correct about how many white people exercise “caution” and who they direct it towards. In fact, most who actually debated that aspect proved this in the other thread.

72

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Qaash wrote:

These changes you’re talking about, “thug wear”, the use of ebonics and everything else generally associated with Black culture are things that take place outside of a work environment. Depending on where one works, “we” know how to act the part on the job but there is nothing I can do to change “your” perception if I change into my more comfortable clothing and you identify it as “thug wear”.

You may change that at the work place. Blacks I know or have crossed paths with do not. They work as a cashier at target (to use X’s example) because they don’t have to switch it up there.

Did you know it was a better idea to get an education than to try to be the next big rapper in order to be successful? If you did, I applaud you. If you did not, you are with the majority of blacks, and have no right complaining about why you aren’t being given certain things.

Just to clear this up, I agree blacks do have more to overcome, but it is not impossible and you guys make it seem like it is.[/quote]

No one works at target because they don’t want to wear a suit to work…

I am college educated, grew up in the burbs…I listened to Aerosmith as well as Tupac. Do you really believe that most Blacks are where they are because they want to be?

73

If “we” black people held no responsibility for ourselves…I seriously doubt we would be where we are today…regardless of what can be improved on…or the degree of equality.

This perception of black people asking for handouts is exaggerated…and not by black people.

74

Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.

75

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
If “we” black people held no responsibility for ourselves…I seriously doubt we would be where we are today…regardless of what can be improved on…or to the degree of equality.

This perception of black people asking for handouts is exaggerated…and not by black people.[/quote]

I don’t even know any black people who act like the stereotypes I see on this site…and I hang around mostly middle income blacks who have a lower income background. I know of NO ONE who would go to a job interview wearing a tank top unless they were 16 years old and applying for job at an amusement park.

76

I’m sorry, but again, if you choose to wear clothes you like but dislike the message you’re sending, it’s too bad - and you bear at least as much responsibility, if not more, as the person reacting to how you are presenting yourself.

If I decided I was comfortable dressing like a skin head because I was really into punk rock, and you reacted based on the fact you assumed I was into skinhead stuff, that would be more on me than on you.

77

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[ /quote]

Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?

78

This just in.

Life isn’t fair. Other folks with all types of skin color have been opressed, enslaved and treated, (gasp) unfairly all throughout history.

No one for the last 6 generations of my family have owned slaves. (Or been one, other to the government)

Fact: You are known by the company you keep, the clothes you wear and the behaviour you exhibit. No one is going to accept it because of Oh boo hoo.

Any change has to come from the individual.

As far as rap and hip hop and that whole culture. It is SHIT!

79

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m sorry, but again, if you choose to wear clothes you like but dislike the message you’re sending, it’s too bad - and you bear at least as much responsibility, if not more, as the person reacting to how you are presenting yourself.[/quote]

I think you miss the point we are making. There is no negative association in the young black community. That association is the construct of a much older generation or a population of mostly white Americans. I doubt even most Hispanics hold the same view. That means maybe much of white America should stop believing that the standards they set are universal and that everyone else should just get in line or shut up.

You also miss the outfit I described earlier is often only seen as “thug wear” if a black person is wearing it.

[quote]

If I decided I was comfortable dressing like a skin head because I was really into punk rock, and you reacted based on the fact you assumed I was into skinhead stuff, that would be more on me than on you.[/quote]

Ridiculous. Hip Hop styles span every race and nationality. There are kids in China right now dressed like The Game. Comparing something specifically worn by a small segment of the population with a UNIVERSAL negative connotation is NOT the same.

Why did that even need an explanation?

80

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
I’m sorry, but again, if you choose to wear clothes you like but dislike the message you’re sending, it’s too bad - and you bear at least as much responsibility, if not more, as the person reacting to how you are presenting yourself.

If I decided I was comfortable dressing like a skin head because I was really into punk rock, and you reacted based on the fact you assumed I was into skinhead stuff, that would be more on me than on you.[/quote]

I see your BASIC point…