[quote]streamline wrote:
Basically it comes down to, if you really want it go and get it, don’t whine or whimper do what has to be done. Don’t however think anyone is going to help. This kind of success has to be achieved through personal drive and desire to reach the top.
[/quote]
On this we can agree. No one is disagreeing about the rules of the game…as long as the rules stay the same across the board.
[quote]Joe D. wrote:
What strikes me from these threads is that the younger white generations seemingly do not feel responsible for the treatment/position of the black community in the US in previous years.
[/quote]
How exactly would people feeling responsible for things that happened before they were even born improve the situation?
Do you feel responsible for the treatment of Australian convicts by the English?
I find that type of thinking illogical.
How far back should the blame go?
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
Joe D. wrote:
What strikes me from these threads is that the younger white generations seemingly do not feel responsible for the treatment/position of the black community in the US in previous years.
How exactly would people feeling responsible for things that happened before they were even born improve the situation?
Do you feel responsible for the treatment of Australian convicts by the English?
I find that type of thinking illogical.
How far back should the blame go?
[/quote]
How about until Adam sinned?
[quote]Qaash wrote:
streamline wrote:
Basically it comes down to, if you really want it go and get it, don’t whine or whimper do what has to be done. Don’t however think anyone is going to help. This kind of success has to be achieved through personal drive and desire to reach the top.
On this we can agree. No one is disagreeing about the rules of the game…as long as the rules stay the same across the board.[/quote]
Where do you find the rulebook?
At the risk of sounding like a cliche’, life is not fair. Everyone gets screwed at least once. I’m not saying this to gloss over the crap the black community has had to deal with in the past.
I think you have to pull your nose out of the rulebook, and throw the finger at it, regardless of color, if you want to succeed.
Eli Whitney, GW Carver, Thurgood Marshall, Clarence Thomas, and Condi Rice - love them or hate them - none of of them played by the rules, or let the level of the playing field stop them from getting to where they wound up.
I really think that waiting for a level playing field is an exercise in futility.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I believe I was pretty clear when I said I was generalizing. As in, most blacks do this. You’re the exception, not the standard.
It is a mistake to say that most blacks hate working and are lazy and this is the problem in America. It a worse mistake to assume a different culture is “wrong” and needs to change because you personally don’t agree with it.
I personally don’t follow trends. I dress in ways I feel comfortable…which may include a Rockets jersey, blue jeans and Air Jordans. For some reason, if I’m black, this is now seen as “thug wear”…yet none of you see the correlation to race?
Just because a rapper wears the same outfit does not mean I embrace being a criminal.
I want you to quote me when I said most blacks hate work and are lazy. I never even came close to saying that. And if, when you are off work, people want to dress a certain way that is fine.
However, how do you expect to get a respectable, good paying job speaking ebonics? Or by showing up in some dress slacks that are too baggy to keep your image intact. That’s the cultural thing that must change in order for blacks to start being more successful. And please, don’t give me an example of how YOU don’t use ebonics, it seems pretty clear by your posts. But once again, YOU are the exception.
Edit: One more thing, wearing rapper style clothes does not mean you embrace being a criminal, but to be successful in any business, you have to project the right image. Unfortunately for blacks (and an increasing # of whites) thug gear is not the right image to be projecting.[/quote]
I say this and am labelled a racist. And such a post causes the Prof pain. Maybe the same sort of logic on his part is embraced by others who don’t want to get an education, dress appropriately, and so on.
Yep, you’re a racist for expecting someone to do that.
[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
People get paid for how much they produce. Wow, how unfair!!
Maybe when Hillary steals the nomination from Barack and black people see how the Dems have used them as pawns for the last 50 years, they might actually wake up to the fact that they were being tricked. They allowed themselves to become a dependent class, then ‘Boo Hoo! We’re not rich and successful!!’ How fucking pathetic!
When they adopt middle class values (dress like a civilised being and not ‘gangsta’, value education, not name their children ‘Sequoia’ or some other dumb shit like that) maybe they’ll get somewhere.
Racism is stupid but it doesn’t go away by whining and bitching, by listening to scum like Pastor Wright and his buddies Farrakhan and Obama, or with another governmental program.
Racism goes away when confronted with INTELLIGENCE!!!
Black people bring poverty mostly on themselves.
Is this the INTELLIGENCE that will make racism fade away?
Priceless.[/quote]
Yep. To make racism go away, black people have to show they are better than whites: more educated, more polite, more well-spoken. Only when the white community HAS A REASON TO NOT BE RACIST will racism stop.
All the whining, bitching, ghetto culture glorification, will never do it. Not all the Pastor Wrights in all the world will do it. COMPETENCE will do it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
We also shouldn’t be expected, outside of work, to conform to what makes the average white guy comfortable just so we don’t cause someone to be more “cautious” around us. That “caution” is what Obama was referring to in his speech. Somehow this was lost in the intense focus on “typical white person”…as if it was a lie.[/quote]
When black people dress and act middle class, they will join the middle class.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Qaash wrote:
streamline wrote:
Basically it comes down to, if you really want it go and get it, don’t whine or whimper do what has to be done. Don’t however think anyone is going to help. This kind of success has to be achieved through personal drive and desire to reach the top.
On this we can agree. No one is disagreeing about the rules of the game…as long as the rules stay the same across the board.
Where do you find the rulebook?
At the risk of sounding like a cliche’, life is not fair. Everyone gets screwed at least once. I’m not saying this to gloss over the crap the black community has had to deal with in the past.
I think you have to pull your nose out of the rulebook, and throw the finger at it, regardless of color, if you want to succeed.
Eli Whitney, GW Carver, Thurgood Marshall, Clarence Thomas, and Condi Rice - love them or hate them - none of of them played by the rules, or let the level of the playing field stop them from getting to where they wound up.
I really think that waiting for a level playing field is an exercise in futility.
[/quote]
If the majority truly feel that way, and the goal is to be seen as an individual and not as part of a group, why are there so many stats flying around about how “blacks” commit more crime or how “blacks” don’t graduate from college or don’t stay married, or any other lines of bullshit designed to make it seem like our position as a group is so clueless and independent of outside influences?
It is a fact that, in majority, the social situation of blacks is hugely influenced by the last 50 years or more. To claim no responsibility belongs to the majority would have to mean that no responsibility lies on blacks for the current situation and, as such, we should stop getting grouped together in society as a negative.
Why hasn’t that stopped?
Why do so many want to be able to point the finger but not have any pointed right back at them?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Race isn’t even close to being the biggest stumbling block for blacks. You will never close the achievment gap with a 70.7% illegitimacy rate (26.6 for non-hispanic whites). Ever.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_07.pdf[ /quote]
Don’t you think you’re putting the cart before the horse?
It is more like a chicken and egg. Poverty and illegitimacy feed off each other.
The problem is, illegtimacy didn’t reverse, stall, or at least grow at a much slower rate since educational/career opportunities have opened up. The rates have exploded. Folks, 70% is devestating. You think the black community has some issues now? Wait to these chilren reach their late teens…We’ve seen the negative effects of broken homes surface in study after study. Again, 70% is devestating.[/quote]
You keep throwing this stat around yet you still have not explained how you are relating being born outside of marriage to anything negative in and of itself. If I don’t get married, are you saying any kid I do have won’t be taken care of and won’t have a mother and a father and won’t be raised well?
I personally feel that NATIONALLY (not just in the black community as you keep implying) marriage is losing its appeal. I honestly feel that if you do gain some amount of financial success BEFORE you find that “perfect woman”, you had better sign a pre-nupt or avoid the shit completely. I don’t put much faith in marriage as an institution because I have seen way too much drama (and divorce) in other situations.
Illegitimacy…is it really that fucking bad in and of itself?
I think not.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
If the majority truly feel that way, and the goal is to be seen as an individual and not as part of a group, why are there so many stats flying around about how “blacks” commit more crime or how “blacks” don’t graduate from college or don’t stay married, or any other lines of bullshit designed to make it seem like our position as a group is so clueless and independent of outside influences?[/quote]
What the fuck is all the group think all about? Yeah, there are stats concerning groups. It’s what people do - group shit together. But to be imprisoned by how others group you is a voluntary action on the part of the groupee. How does this escape you? Especially you, of all people? There’s “what it seems like” and there’s what is.
[quote]It is a fact that, in majority, the social situation of blacks is hugely influenced by the last 50 years or more. To claim no responsibility belongs to the majority would have to mean that no responsibility lies on blacks to change a damn thing and, as such, we should stop getting grouped together in society as a negative.
Why hasn’t that stopped?[/quote]
What in fuck’s name am I to accept responsibility for? That I got the shit kicked out of me by black kids? That my best friends were black? That I am not black? That people I am not even kin to owned slaves? That my family was poor? That I paid for college with my own damn money, and it took me 8 years to get a fucking BS degree?
I will not be a party to white guilt. What purpose does it serve?
The only thing anyone can change is themselves. All of the apologies in the world will not change that fact. I think you stopped being grouped as a collective negative when you stop paying attention to what group you are in. It’s all up to the individual.
When have I pointed a finger? But to answer the second part of your last question - I take full responsibility for everything I am, everything I have done, and the fact that my kids are going to blame at some point in the not-so-distant future for being a shitty father.
But taking responsibility for something I had no hand in is pointless, and a waste of energy. Waiting for someone to do that is just as big a waste.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If the majority truly feel that way, and the goal is to be seen as an individual and not as part of a group, why are there so many stats flying around about how “blacks” commit more crime or how “blacks” don’t graduate from college or don’t stay married, or any other lines of bullshit designed to make it seem like our position as a group is so clueless and independent of outside influences?
What the fuck is all the group think all about? Yeah, there are stats concerning groups. It’s what people do - group shit together. But to be imprisoned by how others group you is a voluntary action on the part of the groupee. How does this escape you? Especially you, of all people? There’s “what it seems like” and there’s what is.
It is a fact that, in majority, the social situation of blacks is hugely influenced by the last 50 years or more. To claim no responsibility belongs to the majority would have to mean that no responsibility lies on blacks to change a damn thing and, as such, we should stop getting grouped together in society as a negative.
Why hasn’t that stopped?
What in fuck’s name am I to accept responsibility for? That I got the shit kicked out of me by black kids? That my best friends were black? That I am not black? That people I am not even kin to owned slaves? That my family was poor? That I paid for college with my own damn money, and it took me 8 years to get a fucking BS degree?
I will not be a party to white guilt. What purpose does it serve?
The only thing anyone can change is themselves. All of the apologies in the world will not change that fact. I think you stopped being grouped as a collective negative when you stop paying attention to what group you are in. It’s all up to the individual.
Why do so many want to be able to point the finger but not have any pointed right back at them?
When have I pointed a finger? But to answer the second part of your last question - I take full responsibility for everything I am, everything I have done, and the fact that my kids are going to blame at some point in the not-so-distant future for being a shitty father.
But taking responsibility for something I had no hand in is pointless, and a waste of energy. Waiting for someone to do that is just as big a waste. [/quote]
You miss the point. Most people who achieve any level of success hold similar views. However, in politics and nationally in society, blacks are constantly informed about how blacks aren’t doing well. Every stat known to man is tossed at us as if we all live in the same house and eat the same food. We are constantly looked at as representations of an entire race and whether you accept it or not, even if we attempt to ignore it, that stress still exists and has for a very long time.
My mom only raised two kids, not a few million.
Therefore, if the goal is truly for that to stop, then the negative stereotypes (blacks dress like thugs at interviews and they all watch BET while eating fried chicken and walking out on their families) and the negative group stats NEED TO END.
Society can’t have it both ways. It can’t point out faults and hold every black man as an image of those faults and then also act like it is hands off when it comes to where the responsibility falls.
Either we all form this society and ALL hold some responsibility for where it is, how it got there and where it is headed…or we all DON’T. Which is it?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
If the majority truly feel that way, and the goal is to be seen as an individual and not as part of a group, why are there so many stats flying around about how “blacks” commit more crime or how “blacks” don’t graduate from college or don’t stay married, or any other lines of bullshit designed to make it seem like our position as a group is so clueless and independent of outside influences?
What the fuck is all the group think all about? Yeah, there are stats concerning groups. It’s what people do - group shit together. But to be imprisoned by how others group you is a voluntary action on the part of the groupee. How does this escape you? Especially you, of all people? There’s “what it seems like” and there’s what is.
It is a fact that, in majority, the social situation of blacks is hugely influenced by the last 50 years or more. To claim no responsibility belongs to the majority would have to mean that no responsibility lies on blacks to change a damn thing and, as such, we should stop getting grouped together in society as a negative.
Why hasn’t that stopped?
What in fuck’s name am I to accept responsibility for? That I got the shit kicked out of me by black kids? That my best friends were black? That I am not black? That people I am not even kin to owned slaves? That my family was poor? That I paid for college with my own damn money, and it took me 8 years to get a fucking BS degree?
I will not be a party to white guilt. What purpose does it serve?
The only thing anyone can change is themselves. All of the apologies in the world will not change that fact. I think you stopped being grouped as a collective negative when you stop paying attention to what group you are in. It’s all up to the individual.
Why do so many want to be able to point the finger but not have any pointed right back at them?
When have I pointed a finger? But to answer the second part of your last question - I take full responsibility for everything I am, everything I have done, and the fact that my kids are going to blame at some point in the not-so-distant future for being a shitty father.
But taking responsibility for something I had no hand in is pointless, and a waste of energy. Waiting for someone to do that is just as big a waste.
You miss the point. Most people who achieve any level of success hold similar views. However, in politics and nationally in society, blacks are constantly informed about how blacks aren’t doing well. Every stat known to man is tossed at us as if we all live in the same house and eat the same food. We are constantly looked at as representations of an entire race and whether you accept it or not, even if we attempt to ignore it, that stress still exists and has for a very long time.
My mom only raised two kids, not a few million.
Therefore, if the goal is truly for that to stop, then the negative stereotypes (blacks dress like thugs at interviews and they all watch BET while eating fried chicken and walking out on their families) and the negative group stats NEED TO END.
Society can’t have it both ways. It can’t point out faults and hold every black man as an image of those faults and then also act like it is hands off when it comes to where the responsibility falls.
Either we all form this society and ALL hold some responsibility for where it is, how it got there and where it is headed…or we all DON’T. Which is it?[/quote]
I’ll reply tomorrow morning. I have tax returns to get done, and this conversation is killing my productivity.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?
[/quote]
It’s funny that so many say that blacks shouldn’t look up to the likes of Jay-Z, but turn around and praise Bill Cosby. Why? They’re both entertainers with levels of success that most, black, white, or other, will never reach.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?
It’s funny that so many say that blacks shouldn’t look up to the likes of Jay-Z, but turn around and praise Bill Cosby. Why? They’re both entertainers with levels of success that most, black, white, or other, will never reach.[/quote]
Kids today are just stupid. Society just values different things. Even in the last 5 years, I’ve noticed lots of change with our youth. It seems we value money, clothes, cars and sex appeal more than holding any value in say, honor, hard work, honesty and individualism.
A lot of people associate black rappers as being gangster. But I’m willing to bet people dont associate Eminem or another white rapper with being gangster. Just a wannabe gangster. Why I wonder???
[quote]jdrannin1 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?
It’s funny that so many say that blacks shouldn’t look up to the likes of Jay-Z, but turn around and praise Bill Cosby. Why? They’re both entertainers with levels of success that most, black, white, or other, will never reach.
Kids today are just stupid. Society just values different things. Even in the last 5 years, I’ve noticed lots of change with our youth. It seems we value money, clothes, cars and sex appeal more than holding any value in say, honor, hard work, honesty and individualism.
A lot of people associate black rappers as being gangster. But I’m willing to bet people dont associate Eminem or another white rapper with being gangster. Why I wonder??? [/quote]
Yes they do.
[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?
It’s funny that so many say that blacks shouldn’t look up to the likes of Jay-Z, but turn around and praise Bill Cosby. Why? They’re both entertainers with levels of success that most, black, white, or other, will never reach.
Kids today are just stupid. Society just values different things. Even in the last 5 years, I’ve noticed lots of change with our youth. It seems we value money, clothes, cars and sex appeal more than holding any value in say, honor, hard work, honesty and individualism.
A lot of people associate black rappers as being gangster. But I’m willing to bet people dont associate Eminem or another white rapper with being gangster. Why I wonder???
Yes they do.[/quote]
Not where I’m from. Not even close.
[quote]Agressive Napkin wrote:
jdrannin1 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I love how you guys point out all the exceptions and refuse to look at the majorities. Puffy and Jay Z have had great success doing what they do. So you want every black kid in America to look up to them, as if they have a good shot to be as successful as them? Why not look up to someone with more reasonable goals?
It’s funny that so many say that blacks shouldn’t look up to the likes of Jay-Z, but turn around and praise Bill Cosby. Why? They’re both entertainers with levels of success that most, black, white, or other, will never reach.
Kids today are just stupid. Society just values different things. Even in the last 5 years, I’ve noticed lots of change with our youth. It seems we value money, clothes, cars and sex appeal more than holding any value in say, honor, hard work, honesty and individualism.
A lot of people associate black rappers as being gangster. But I’m willing to bet people dont associate Eminem or another white rapper with being gangster. Why I wonder???
Yes they do.[/quote]
Then they’re idiots. Gangsta rap effectively died with TuPac and B.I.G. Anyone after that was a poor substitute meaning anyone using this term to describe ANY rapper today is someone who is about a decade or more out of touch with the very culture they are judging.
Lil’ Bow Wow will kill you faster than a cat licks his ass, but you will have to wait until 3:45 pm because thats when middle school lets out for the day, Biotch.
[quote]dk44 wrote:
Lil’ Bow Wow will kill you faster than a cat licks his ass, but you will have to wait until 3:45 pm because thats when middle school lets out for the day, Biotch.[/quote]
that actually made me chuckle a little bit.
This thread has fried my brain…and raped my edit conscience.