What Price for White Skin?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]orion wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Hmmm…I’m going to be less successful at 11am…

Shit, can he be more successful considering his background? I don’t see someone wanting to be like Puff daddy or Jay Z as being a negative, especially since both men are educated and have basically changed the face of music and even fashion.

What sad is that regardless of how succesful they are…some people still paint a negative picture of them…interesting,huh?

Puff daddy was one of the first to even popularize wearing a suit in a rap video but I am sure most of “white America” still sees him as a negative influence.

I do see him as a negative influence-

He butchers 80s songs and raps his lame ass lyrics over their hook lines.

His financial success ensures that more of that extremely annoying shit is being published.

In a perfect world Timbaland would mix all Puffy tracks and Mr Combs would drive his car.

[/quote]

Well…I wasn’t including his actual music as success…we all know he sucks. His financial success goes beyond music…that was more of my focus.

182

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:

What makes you think I’m black?[/quote]

Must have been your constant use of ebonics.

Seriously though, you being white doesn’t really change my statement. Blacks don’t seem to want to rethink the way they do just as whites don’t.

183

You’re going to have to explain ‘ebonics’ to me please.
Anyone?

184

[quote]Neuromancer wrote:
You’re going to have to explain ‘ebonics’ to me please.
Anyone?[/quote]

Popular slang, created by black people. For shizzle my nizzle. My momma be off da hizook. Bad grammar, made up words, the whole bit.

185

Ok,got it,thank you.

And I used this when exactly?

Edit:Aha,my apologies,it’s late here in deep dark Africa,I get it now!

186

This thread went downhill fast.

I also found a lot of the posts here pretty shocking.

I don’t for a minute see how one section of society can start a commentary on whether the other section should feel suitably “equal”. Especially when it soon degenerates into stereotypes of lazy guys on welfare who “should stop complaining”.

What strikes me from these threads is that the younger white generations seemingly do not feel responsible for the treatment/position of the black community in the US in previous years.

I am not making any value judgement on that, just wondering if that may part of the issue?

187

I never once said black people were lazy. I apologize if you weren’t speaking about me, but I don’t remember reading that, either.

188

[quote]Joe D. wrote:

What strikes me from these threads is that the younger white generations seemingly do not feel responsible for the treatment/position of the black community in the US in previous years.

[/quote]

Well, of course not.

189

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Joe D. wrote:

What strikes me from these threads is that the younger white generations seemingly do not feel responsible for the treatment/position of the black community in the US in previous years.

Well, of course not.[/quote]

My point being, that they therefore belive things are equal for all and that everyone should just get on with things. No sense that the black community has any legitimate grievances with their position in society? No need for affirmative action or any such things as that?

190

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I never once said black people were lazy. I apologize if you weren’t speaking about me, but I don’t remember reading that, either.[/quote]

As someone who merely reads the threads on here, that was the impression that was being given to me about the attitudes of many of the posters.

191

I feel no responsibility for the treatment/position of the black community. Nor am I responsible for any part of the Holocaust, Palestinians losing their “homeland,” Christian crusades, and any other historical event that I had absolutely no involvement with.

192

[quote]Joe D. wrote:

My point being, that they therefore belive things are equal for all and that everyone should just get on with things. No sense that the black community has any legitimate grievances with their position in society? No need for affirmative action or any such things as that?[/quote]

Affirmative action makes things worse in so many ways - but that’s another thread entirely…

I guess the pertinent point for this thread would be: legitimate grievances against whom? Just because I sympathize with someone’s grievance doesn’t mean I agree to bear the cost to make a reparation payment.

193

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Joe D. wrote:

My point being, that they therefore belive things are equal for all and that everyone should just get on with things. No sense that the black community has any legitimate grievances with their position in society? No need for affirmative action or any such things as that?

Affirmative action makes things worse in so many ways - but that’s another thread entirely…

I guess the pertinent point for this thread would be: legitimate grievances against whom? Just because I sympathize with someone’s grievance doesn’t mean I agree to bear the cost to make a reparation payment.[/quote]

I would propose that the pertinent point is do you sympathise enough to have an honest mental accounting of your own thinking process and to acknowledge that perhaps a different intellectual scheme may result in a future where the issues we are discussing become obsolete?

To bring it down to a monetary cost is the path of least resistance and guarantees that the result will be negative,and I believe,ignores the real,deeper,uncomfortable problems that need to be addressed.

So if the cost is not monetary,are people still willing to pay it?

My guess is no.

194

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

What makes you think I’m black?

Must have been your constant use of ebonics.

Seriously though, you being white doesn’t really change my statement. Blacks don’t seem to want to rethink the way they do just as whites don’t.[/quote]

I wonder what a lot of English people think about the way Americans of any color/colour have bastardized THEIR language.

I wonder how Shakespeare would feel about the bastardized English all english speakers speak today.

I wonder what Chaucer would have to say about Shakespeare and everybody else who has screwed up the English language he knew.

Language is, after all, dynamic. If we were to be transported into the future 500 years, most all of us would need a translator or at least a dictionary, I figure.

My point is that it’s kind of hard to act as if any linguistic or temporal group within a language (White, North Americans in 2008 for example) have a right to claim they are the final authority on the way a language should be spoken.

It may be USEFUL that there is a standard, but I think that is different from assuming an air of linguistic superiority.

195

For people in general, I’d say it depends a lot on what the actual cost is.

196

[quote]entheogens wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
Neuromancer wrote:

What makes you think I’m black?

Must have been your constant use of ebonics.

Seriously though, you being white doesn’t really change my statement. Blacks don’t seem to want to rethink the way they do just as whites don’t.

I wonder what a lot of English people think about the way Americans of any color/colour have bastardized THEIR language.

I wonder how Shakespeare would feel about the bastardized English all english speakers speak today.

I wonder what Chaucer would have to say about Shakespeare and everybody else who has screwed up the English language he knew.

Language is, after all, dynamic. If we were to be transported into the future 500 years, most all of us would need a translator or at least a dictionary, I figure.

My point is that it’s kind of hard to act as if any linguistic or temporal group within a language (White, North Americans in 2008 for example) have a right to claim they are the final authority on the way a language should be spoken.

It may be USEFUL that there is a standard, but I think that is different from assuming an air of linguistic superiority.

[/quote]

If, in 100 years, the whole world is speaking ebonics, I owe you an apology.

Edit: On 2nd thought, your response is not relevant to this thread whatsoever. I retract my previous statement. Even if in 100 years, the world is speaking ebonics, I owe no apology.

197

[quote]

I’ve seen just as much family wealth squandered as it’s handed down to the next generation. Squandering wealth appears to be the rule, rather than the exception, from what I’ve seen. Kids that grow up wealthy and priviledged tend to be lazy and have a sense of entitlement, if anything. Thanks inheritance taxes and taxes in general, there’s often very little wealth passed down from one generation to the next. Even if it is passed down, a parent must divide it amongst 2 or more children, which is why being born first was so important in ancient near eastern cultures. After the government wets its beak, there’s usually very little inheritance left over. [/quote]

Most finances do not make it to the inheritance stage. If one has an accountant worth an salt the money are placed in trust fund to avoid inheritance taxes. This also prevents these moneys from showing up as an type of statistic in reguards to inheritance. Trust funds can also be set up to have the taxes paid yearly with the interest made by the fund. This prevents huge tax pay outs when individuals come into their trust funds. The rich don’t stay rich, the smart do.

198

Maybe we should ponder how much a BLACK slave would pay to be a BLACK citizen in todays America. It might show some of you how much better life has gotten as opposed to us sitting here bitching and moaning about the past. (Not implying that there isn’t racism in America, just saying that talking about shit in the past that we can’t change isn’t taking a step forward)

199

I am coming very late to this thread, as I don’t really check this site during work. But since I was “called out” - heh - I will do a quick reply. Forgive me if I repeat what has already been said or the like.

  1. The “Price” meme is intentionally misstated, largely because it doesn’t do anything to distinguish cause versus correlation. Merely noting differences and presuming racism - which the article seems to take without question as a conclusion - is flatly false. Too many variables in between. After all, a generation ago, we know that racism was unquestionably worse, but we know that marriage percentages and births-in-wedlock were far higher. Why the change in an environment when racism has actually declined, and certainly did not enjoy legal sanction? This is just one variable the conclusory article doesn’t bother considering.

The “price” includes lots of other factors other than a reaction to “skin” - but the author and those in agreement with him can’t be bothered with such a comprehensive hard look at what creates the economics of this “price”, because (1) that would require a willingness to understand economics period, and (2) that would require setting aside cheap, simple narratives of perpetuating victimization.

  1. The “unfairness” of fashion arguments are ridiculous. First, why the arbitrary distinction between “professional” dress and “casual” dress? Majoritarian cultural attitudes drive the appropriateness of what is ok for the workplace as well in the mall. Complain about one, you might as well complain about the other - same principle applies. After all, are you really a better accountant or lawyer if you have a shirt with a collar than if you had on a t-shirt? These “rules” are culturally driven either way.

(who knew? Because of my company’s dress code, I could have been decrying myself a victim for years!)

That said, if there is whining about whether a certain “look” isn’t respected - too bad. For every complain that someone is getting disrespected for dressing like a “thug”, the same whine applies to those who dress like Goths. Or Bikers. Or women over 35 that wear mini-skirts. Or someone who wants to put a blue streak in their hair.

It is the classic 15 year old, mad at my parents complaint. My answer:

So what?

There is and always will be a mainstream culture that looks down its nose at counterculture, whatever its level. So what? There is no criminal penalty - wear whatever you want and grow up.

The other notable thing - the Double Standard. How many of those that dress like “thugs” or “radicals” (a catchall for Goths, punks, etc.) are more than happy to enjoy the benefits of being so different from the mainstream, but when it hurts them, they complain that they are being treated unfairly?

Perfect example - someone with, say, lots of tattoos. When people react to the tattoos by being intimidated or some other version of awe, the tattoo-ed individual is beside himself with glee at the attention he is earning for himself by looking “hardcore” or “intense” or fill-in-the-blank.

As in, when the departure from mainstream norms generates positive attention - “you look like a badass” - they love being so different. Love it, love it, love it.

But, when they get negative attention - say, for example, they lose out on a job because they looked “hardcore” or someone won’t take them seriously - suddenly, the attention is “unfair” or “bigoted”, and they are disrespected because the mainstream culture just won’t view them as “just as normal as anyone else, but different”.

As in, when the departure from mainstream norms generates negative attention - “you look like a moron/freak/idiot” - they are victims of closed-mindedness and unfairness.

It’s patently stupid - it is wanting it both ways. I want to be positively recognized for being so different, but I don’t want to be punished for being so different.

I suspect the problem is that adolescence seems to extend into people’s 30s now - this desire to refuse to grow up and accept that culture drives the issue, same as it ever has. Either make peace with it or don’t - but accept reality.

200

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Tell me how people can be a part of a society yet at the same time feel they bare no responsibility for the actions of that society based on their own social standing?

While I know that most whites living today may have had little DIRECT influence on the degradation of blacks in this country, they are still a part of the same society that did. That same society is what allowed their own ancestors less in the way of hardships than their much darker counterparts (even if some of you claim your family came from wherever and didn’t personally own a slave)…which translates into greater economic and social wealth. As such, the ramifications extend across generations until we reach this moment in time.

I see no possible way to reach a solution as long as most of the country acts like they hold no responsibility at all.

It simply can’t work that way.

Mind you, I think simple acknowledgment would go a long way but we can’t even get that on a grand scale.

Bullshit. You want white America to take the blame for what happened in the past. I have nothing to fucking apologize for.

When will the black man get past the damn Great Society bullshit, and take some responsibility for his own situation?

How in the flying fuck is it a white problem that the black man can’t be a damn father? You know you are in the minority of your own race having an educated father, right?

There will always be a race problem until blacks get past thinking they are owed a fucking welfare check, and a pat on the back for yet another illegitimate, fatherless child.

The blacks have been brainwashed since 1964 that they are worthless and helpless, and that they can only get by with special rules.

You guys should have listened to X instead of MLK.

But just like slavery, you can’t undo the past. There will always be excuses, and attempts at rationalizing one’s condition.

Just like in the gym, you either make the effort, or you don’t. Blaming someone else because you are small, or poor, or disadvantaged is a cop out.

[/quote]

I agree with Rainjack on this. I think to few realize that the social structure of society is based on the influence on the rich, as in upper middle class and beyond.

Being educated is only the first step. There is a social game that has to be played in orded to acheive true success. One can have an education and achieve wealth and still have zero influence in the social structure. One has to play the social game, follow the rules and become excepted by having the social skills required to fit into the right social circles.

Achievement in life comes first from having parents that pave the way. Education in the right schools, this can take generations to acheive depending on wealth. Becoming a millionaire in one generation does not give you the social cloat required to make it into the right social circles.

Personal drive and desire to achieve and be excepted into the upper social circle is needed. Personally I am not prepared to give up my individuality in order to to climb the social ladder. Fact there are very few how are. As an individual I have zero influence over the social structure of society nor do I care. Survival of the fittest, in this case social fitness.

It is not so much to do with race but the social psychology of helping your own. As more races achieve this social exceptance the more they will bring their own up with them. So many wish to get to the top but only a few are willing to pay the price. In my eyes that price is way to high.

Basically it comes down to, if you really want it go and get it, don’t whine or whimper do what has to be done. Don’t however think anyone is going to help. This kind of success has to be achieved through personal drive and desire to reach the top.

Arnold did it!