What Is Truth?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
205

[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Thanks to Vroom and his companions, I am starting this thread to gather your ideas to this one question. This question was asked by the Roman governor Pontius Pilate to Jesus Christ just before He was sent to the cross. It really is the question of the ages.

The question simply is: “What Is Truth?”

What is absolute truth? Is there any such thing as absolute truth? Where does truth come from? Who determines what is true? Is all truth just relative – what is true for you, is good for you, but not necessarily truth for me, etc?

To begin, as many of you probably know, I am a Bible-believing, born-again Christian. My faith is in the God of the Bible and His Word. God is the source of absolute truth and He has placed within us the ability to know moral truth through our consciences.

Is it any wonder that the English legal system (which is also the basis for our legal system) is based upon God’s moral law as given in the Hebrew Scriptures (The Old Testament)? Why would that be?

I want to emphazise that ALL opinions are welcome here. Unlike Vroom’s thread on his “four principles,” where they absolutely do not want to hear from people of faith – well at least not from Christians – I welcome all opinions for discussion.

I think we can learn much from each other, and I will admit my faith in God is strong, but I would appreciate your thoughts on this important question of What is truth?
[/quote]

Absolute truth is that which is observable to a given person at a given time. There is no way of conveying it from one person to another. All “truth”, as it is commonly known, is completely subjective.

What is described as “faith in God” is actually nothing more than faith in an idea generated by other people. This argument is easy to support: every single religious person has acquired his faith – not from any direct contact with God – but merely from others who instilled the belief within him. Religion has been called a “memetic virus”, and I would agree with this classification. Simply put, this means that it’s existence is entirely dependant on it’s conveyance from one generation to the next as a mental concept. Unlike science, there is no external source through which it could be observed. Once gone, it would stay gone (at least in a particular form).

While science builds upon the observable knowledge of the world, and is thus ever-expanding in its scope, faith is in a constant struggle for its own existence. Each new generation of humans is born without any prior knowledge of religious doctrines, and thus, MUST be indoctrinated according to said doctrines if the faith is to survive.

Scientific progress can stall for hundreds, thousands of years, as it has in the past, without dying or significantly regressing. If all the major religions in the world were simply “forgotten” about for merely 100 years (or if, for example, everyone who knew religion perished), the concept of religion would cease to exist on earth. Because that’s all that faith is: a concept. And all concepts are dependant on human minds for their existence.

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Pookie,

I am NOT saying that at all and I am not trying to play any tricks. I just stand upon the Word of God, and if someone honestly wants to know Him, He will reveal Himself, that’s all.

Again, I do realize what you are saying and how this seems. Honestly, I would have written just about everything you have 12 years ago.

I say, just read and see what happens. Again, if it is all BS then you’ve read some great literature.

But if eternity depends upon it…

Take care.[/quote]

Again, I made an honest search for a god. Didn’t find one. I was raised in a Methodist church. I was confirmed. This required two years of “class” every Wednesday. I’ve read the christian bible, I’ve had theological discussions with a pastor (who was actually a really cool guy), I “asked” God into my life. Nada.

I so wanted to find a god that my search continued through Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism of the Zen and non-Zen variety, Physics, and purely philosophical argument. No god there either.

Now, I admit that I am, at heart, a scientist. I have been for as long as I can remember, and my first real memories go back to when I was around four. But I have always been above all else a seeker. I looked very hard. My first direction being Christianity and your Bible. I found nothing. Explain please.

As a side note, the bible isn’t all that great from a literary perspective…and since you like to quote your book…

“Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must approve the homage of reason rather than of blind-folded fear.” ?Thomas Jefferson

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can’t readily accept the God formula, the big answers don’t remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state and our education system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
– Charles Bukowski, Life magazine, December 1988

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[quote]JPBear wrote:
Okay Pookie sorry my response took so long.

You wanted to know what I meant when I said I am not to be a friend of the world.

The world is the earth which is fallen and full of sin. My permanent home is in heaven with the Lord and I am only on the earth for a temporary time, basically just the first page of a never-ending book. Therefore I am supposed to be in the world but not of the world. Becoming a friend of the world would mean embracing it, considering it my home and valuing my life here. I should not delight in, meditate on, or plan my life around anything that does not bring glory to God.

I hope that explains it.[/quote]

How does weight training fit in there? Spending time improving your mortal shell is time wasted, if you consider that it could be better spent helping others… no?

And how does one treat the Earth? Is it ok to pollute it, abuse it, strip mine it since its only a temporary stop in your journey? Just curious.

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
When I began this thread, I was looking for honest discussion between people about Absolute Truth. For me, it is in the Word of God. The truth needs to be tested using some standard – again for me that standard is the Bible.
[/quote]

So you asked “What Is Truth?” but you aren’t really interested in answers or discussion about it. what you really want is to tell everyone you know what you think “The Truth” is.

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[quote]pookie wrote:

How does weight training fit in there? Spending time improving your mortal shell is time wasted, if you consider that it could be better spent helping others… no?[/quote]

Vanity is a sin I struggle with. God has really brought this to my attention lately. It is okay to work out and eat right in order to keep my body in good condition for the work I am called to do. It is not okay to do these things in order to look good and turn heads. I should make the effort to keep myself healthy since my work for God would be hindered if I was not in optimal health. It should not be the end all be all though, and the time I spend on my health should not be causing me to put off the things God tells me to do.

No, we are not called to exploit the earth for profit or abuse it out of laziness. But at the same time we do not worship the earth or nature. The earth is fallen, just as man is fallen.

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Time for a “bump”

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Hmmmm…especially since no Christian has come forward with a reply for my question, right steveo5801??

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[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
He wanted to start a religious debate. Because there isn’t one on four different threads right now.[/quote]

I think he’s more interested in preaching from the pulpit, while we raptly listen and sagely acquiesce “yes, yes” at the proper places.

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[quote]pookie wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
He wanted to start a religious debate. Because there isn’t one on four different threads right now.

I think he’s more interested in preaching from the pulpit, while we raptly listen and sagely acquiesce “yes, yes” at the proper places.[/quote]

Pookie, you protest too much! I think that God has been after you and you have been “running” from Him.

You realize that something is missing in your life, don’t you. So it comes out in this pusedo-hostility to God and the Bible, but I think you really want to believe. You can you know…

As for me preaching, believe it or not, I don’t wish to at all. I wish to proclaim God’s message and His Absolute Truth to all.

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Again, responding to Pookie’s response to my post…but totally ignoring me. Is my question too trivial for you to waste time on? Or do you simply not have an answer?

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[quote]Mordred wrote:
Again, responding to Pookie’s response to my post…but totally ignoring me. Is my question too trivial for you to waste time on? Or do you simply not have an answer?[/quote]

Mordred,

What was the question, there is a lot of posts going on. I assure you that if you have a question, it is not trivial. Please restate this for everyone and I will do my best to answer.

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Again, I made an honest search for a god. Didn’t find one. I was raised in a Methodist church. I was confirmed. This required two years of “class” every Wednesday. I’ve read the christian bible, I’ve had theological discussions with a pastor (who was actually a really cool guy), I “asked” God into my life. Nada.

I so wanted to find a god that my search continued through Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism of the Zen and non-Zen variety, Physics, and purely philosophical argument. No god there either.

Now, I admit that I am, at heart, a scientist. I have been for as long as I can remember, and my first real memories go back to when I was around four. But I have always been above all else a seeker. I looked very hard. My first direction being Christianity and your Bible. I found nothing. Explain please.

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[quote]Mordred wrote:
Again, I made an honest search for a god. Didn’t find one. I was raised in a Methodist church. I was confirmed. This required two years of “class” every Wednesday. I’ve read the christian bible, I’ve had theological discussions with a pastor (who was actually a really cool guy), I “asked” God into my life. Nada.

I so wanted to find a god that my search continued through Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism of the Zen and non-Zen variety, Physics, and purely philosophical argument. No god there either.

Now, I admit that I am, at heart, a scientist. I have been for as long as I can remember, and my first real memories go back to when I was around four. But I have always been above all else a seeker. I looked very hard. My first direction being Christianity and your Bible. I found nothing. Explain please.[/quote]

I cannot explain your particular experience. I can only relate to you my own and then what the Bible tells us.

I am also a mathematics, science, and logic guy myself. All of my life I relied on these human disciplines for answers to the fundamental questions of life. However, as I got a bit older and saw the utter vanity in all of it – I mean, we work for 30 - 40 years or so only to retire to live another 10 - 30 and then…poof! Gone?

Thoughts like this and others haunted me for a long time. After searching science and logic for answers, I went searching for God. I went to Catholic churches, synagogues, etc. You name it, I looked…unitl someone told me the simple truth of the Gospel of Christ. Jesus paid it all, I just had to ask Him into my life honestly to save me. I did that in 1995. However, that was only the begining. Nothing really changed for me until I decided to dedicate myself to following Jesus; to have a relationship with Him.

I began to read and study the Bible, attend a Bible-believing church, and getting involved in Christian mininstry and service. When someone is truly “born again” it is a spiritual birth and thus we start out as a spiritual “baby” and have to “grow up” spiritually.

The Bible does teach that if someone really wants to know God, God will reveal Himself to that person.

“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:6-7

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father?s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:37-40

I do hope that this answers your question.

I have one question for you though. When you ‘asked God’ into your life, did you ask Jesus into your life?

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
You realize that something is missing in your life, don’t you. So it comes out in this pusedo-hostility to God and the Bible, but I think you really want to believe. You can you know…[/quote]

I’m not saying the idea of an ever loving God and eternal afterlife in bliss is a disagreeable one; I simply can’t believe it while remaining honest with myself. That’s all.

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[quote]pookie wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
You realize that something is missing in your life, don’t you. So it comes out in this pusedo-hostility to God and the Bible, but I think you really want to believe. You can you know…

I’m not saying the idea of an ever loving God and eternal afterlife in bliss is a disagreeable one; I simply can’t believe it while remaining honest with myself. That’s all.
[/quote]

Pookie,

That is the point. You can’t believe entirely on your own without honestly searching it our for yourself. I am only asking you to honestly read the Bible – pick a chapter like the Gospel of John – and read it prayerfully and honestly. “Challenge God” to show you what He says about all of this, that’s all.

I do appreciate your honesty even when it seems harsh, since I was there myself as I have said over 12 years ago.

I do think that in every man is a kernel of the knowledge of the divine (not the divine itseslf, but an awareness that the divine exists). The aspect that most people are unaware is that we can KNOW Him personally.

SteveO

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Mordred wrote:
Again, I made an honest search for a god. Didn’t find one. I was raised in a Methodist church. I was confirmed. This required two years of “class” every Wednesday. I’ve read the christian bible, I’ve had theological discussions with a pastor (who was actually a really cool guy), I “asked” God into my life. Nada.

I so wanted to find a god that my search continued through Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism of the Zen and non-Zen variety, Physics, and purely philosophical argument. No god there either.

Now, I admit that I am, at heart, a scientist. I have been for as long as I can remember, and my first real memories go back to when I was around four. But I have always been above all else a seeker. I looked very hard. My first direction being Christianity and your Bible. I found nothing. Explain please.

I cannot explain your particular experience. I can only relate to you my own and then what the Bible tells us.

I am also a mathematics, science, and logic guy myself. All of my life I relied on these human disciplines for answers to the fundamental questions of life. However, as I got a bit older and saw the utter vanity in all of it – I mean, we work for 30 - 40 years or so only to retire to live another 10 - 30 and then…poof! Gone?

Thoughts like this and others haunted me for a long time. After searching science and logic for answers, I went searching for God. I went to Catholic churches, synagogues, etc. You name it, I looked…unitl someone told me the simple truth of the Gospel of Christ. Jesus paid it all, I just had to ask Him into my life honestly to save me. I did that in 1995. However, that was only the begining. Nothing really changed for me until I decided to dedicate myself to following Jesus; to have a relationship with Him.

I began to read and study the Bible, attend a Bible-believing church, and getting involved in Christian mininstry and service. When someone is truly “born again” it is a spiritual birth and thus we start out as a spiritual “baby” and have to “grow up” spiritually.

The Bible does teach that if someone really wants to know God, God will reveal Himself to that person.

“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:6-7

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father?s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:37-40

I do hope that this answers your question.

I have one question for you though. When you ‘asked God’ into your life, did you ask Jesus into your life?[/quote]

Mordred,

Now I answered your question, why aren’t you answering mine?

When you “asked God” into your life, did you ask Jesus Christ (specifically) into your life?

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Mordred wrote:
Again, I made an honest search for a god. Didn’t find one. I was raised in a Methodist church. I was confirmed. This required two years of “class” every Wednesday. I’ve read the christian bible, I’ve had theological discussions with a pastor (who was actually a really cool guy), I “asked” God into my life. Nada.

I so wanted to find a god that my search continued through Hinduism, Daoism, Buddhism of the Zen and non-Zen variety, Physics, and purely philosophical argument. No god there either.

Now, I admit that I am, at heart, a scientist. I have been for as long as I can remember, and my first real memories go back to when I was around four. But I have always been above all else a seeker. I looked very hard. My first direction being Christianity and your Bible. I found nothing. Explain please.

I cannot explain your particular experience. I can only relate to you my own and then what the Bible tells us.

I am also a mathematics, science, and logic guy myself. All of my life I relied on these human disciplines for answers to the fundamental questions of life. However, as I got a bit older and saw the utter vanity in all of it – I mean, we work for 30 - 40 years or so only to retire to live another 10 - 30 and then…poof! Gone?

Thoughts like this and others haunted me for a long time. After searching science and logic for answers, I went searching for God. I went to Catholic churches, synagogues, etc. You name it, I looked…unitl someone told me the simple truth of the Gospel of Christ. Jesus paid it all, I just had to ask Him into my life honestly to save me. I did that in 1995. However, that was only the begining. Nothing really changed for me until I decided to dedicate myself to following Jesus; to have a relationship with Him.

I began to read and study the Bible, attend a Bible-believing church, and getting involved in Christian mininstry and service. When someone is truly “born again” it is a spiritual birth and thus we start out as a spiritual “baby” and have to “grow up” spiritually.

The Bible does teach that if someone really wants to know God, God will reveal Himself to that person.

“Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: ?Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous? man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:6-7

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father?s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:37-40

I do hope that this answers your question.

I have one question for you though. When you ‘asked God’ into your life, did you ask Jesus into your life?[/quote]

Mordred,

Now I answered your question, why aren’t you answering mine?

When you “asked God” into your life, did you ask Jesus Christ (specifically) into your life?

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Mordred,

Where are you?

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[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Mordred,

Where are you?[/quote]

Well?

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[quote]vroom wrote:
Extol,

I question whether any statement I make, whether it is in fact right or wrong, qualifies as absolute truth.[/quote]

Is the statement you wrote above true or false? Of course, you would say it is true–though not ABSOLUTELY TRUE. Right. I think I understand what you’re saying. So then, the only person whose statements qualify as an ABSOLUTE TRUTH is Jesus Christ. So, when Jesus Christ makes the statement that He is the Almighty God, Creator of heaven and earth that is ABSOLUTE TRUTH. And any who disagree with Him are absolute liars.

[quote]vroom wrote:
If that is all ABSOLUTE TRUTH is, a simple correct fact, then it is too trivial to be an important question anyway.[/quote]

Now that the misunderstanding has been cleared up regarding the defining of certain terms (at least I hope it has), ABSOLUTE TRUTH is more than a simple correct fact. When Jesus said that He is the way, the TRUTH and the life, that is an ABSOLUTE TRUTH statement. If something you say contradicts that, then you are making absolutely false statements; statements that are diametrically opposed to Him who is TRUTH (John 14:6).

[quote]vroom wrote:
However, if I have the power to speak ABSOLUTE TRUTHS, then I have certainly not lived up to my potential on this planet so far!.[/quote]

Again, I hope I cleared up the misunderstanding so that it should now be clear that ONLY Jesus Christ has the power to speak with ABSOLUTE authority:

"Then everyone who hears these Words from Me, and does them, I will compare him to a wise man who built his house on the rock; and the rain came down, and the floods came up, and the winds blew, and fell against that house; but it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

And everyone who hears these Words of Mine, and who does not do them, he shall be compared to a foolish man who built his house on the sand; and the rain came down, and the floods came up, and the winds blew and beat against that house; and it fell, and great was the collapse of it.

And it happened, when Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were astonished at His doctrine. For He was teaching them as having authority, and not as the scribes" Mathew 7:24-29).

[quote]vroom wrote:
I think perhaps I shall simply declare everyone my minions and run the place as I see fit… thanks for the tip, but you now qualify as a minion as well.[/quote]

In light of the clarifications I made above, your statement is not one of truth, let alone ABSOLUTE TRUTH since said statement is based on a misunderstanding.

The only one who has the power and authority to “run the place as [He would] see fit” is the God of the Bible. One example of God running the place as He sees fit is His causing you to write what you wrote above.

In regard to life and death matters such as salvation and damnation, God has seen fit to cause everyone for whom Jesus Christ did NOT die for to go to hell, and to cause everyone for whom Jesus Christ DID die for to go to heaven. He did this so that no one may boast before Him. Those who believe that Christ died for those in hell have a boast in what they did to ADD to the work of Christ to keep it from being a total failure. They are God-haters.