What is the True Religion?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

Trib, you said this on page 5 of the “True religion” thread:

"I KNOW they are all wrong because the comprehensive system of knowledge that I see unavoidably emerging from the soundest historical interpretation of the ancient Christian scriptures, a system the falsity of which is an utter impossibility, precludes in a decidedly ipso facto fashion, absolutely all others from consideration.

That is close minded, narrow, dogmatic and intolerant. This is called “conviction” and makes me the antichrist to broad minded modern man. On the other hand, EVERYbody has it. It’s only a matter of what about."

You claim all other religions are wrong based on the soundest historical interpretation (past observations, and thus applying the scientific method). This only makes it highly probable, not absolute, yes? I am certain you’ve said this yourself at some point … or maybe it was Pat.

I realize we are discussing two separate issues (The right religion versus Does God exist) but they are linked by their inabilities to be proven. It is a faith you hold. I would be foolish to call you delusional for this belief because I too cannot prove that God does not exist. Furthermore, you might be right. I might be right. Neither cases have a probability of 0 or 1. But your argument fails from the start, so why counter it?

EDIT: Oops, meant to post this in the other thread, but it’s good here too. This is in response to Trib’s post that I misinterested a statement about his conviction that his religion was the right one.

162

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Seriously, I want to know.

If God does exist who will he favor the most?

What if the true religions hasn’t been invented yet?

Do you think an all-powerful god would really be jealous and smite you if you accidentally were born into the wrong one?

These questions burn in my mind and feel like there is a gap in my understanding that needs to be satisfied.

Discuss.[/quote]
If you look at the Bible, there has always been one group that was God’s people. Starting with the Hebrew scriptures(Old Testament) God’s chosen people were the Israelites. Out of all the people on the earth only the Israelites were God’s chosen people and if a person from another nation wanted to be in an approved relationship with God they had to become a proselyte. Meaning they had to refrain from their former way of worship and worship God the way he commanded the Israelites to worship Him. This involved making up his or her mind that they were no longer going to worship the way the nation they were from worshiped which most likely meant worshiping a false god. There are several examples in the Bible of people from other nations doing this. A well known example of a person doing this is Ruth who was King David’s great grandmother.

There’s also a well known example in the Christian-Greek scriptures(New Testament) of a person who had to stop believing and practicing his current way of worship and conform his beliefs and life to the one group of people that ware God’s people. That person was the apostle Paul. Paul was a zealous Jew who even persecuted the early Christians but once he was approached by Jesus on the road to Damascus he became a believer. But to be acceptable to God he had to do more than just believe in Jesus. Believing in Jesus was the easy part because he actually saw Jesus with his eyes but more was required of him. If you remember, Paul along with all of the Jews practicing Judaism did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah so once Jesus revealed himself to Paul he didn’t just believe and then go on practicing Judaism. No, Paul had to become a a Christian completely and no longer practice Judaism meaning he had to stop believing what the Jews believed, he had to stop following the law covenant and he had to stop worshiping at the temple by way of sacrificing animals to God like the Jews did. God rejected the Jews as a religious group and they were no longer his chosen people (Matthew 21:43, 23:37,38, Luke 19:42, Hebrews 8:9) so Paul could no longer worship God the way the Jews worshiped God because Judaism was now false religion. As a matter of fact, all of the Jews who became Christians had to stop believing in Judiasm and become a Christian. My point is that according to the Bible God deals with only one group of people and one must be part of that group if he or she wants to be accepted by God.

Does God Care About How He is Worshipped?

According to the Bible yes. There are clear examples in both the Hebrew scriptures and the Christian-Greek scriptures of God’s people deviating from the worship God required and God being displeased.

Again, looking at the Israelites as an example, there are dozens of examples of times when the Israelites would deviate from the way God instructed them to worship him and God then rejecting their worship because of it. As long as they worshiped God the way that he required they were in an approved state with God and he would protect them from the surrounding nations. But when the Israelites would mix in customs from the surrounding nations God would reject there worship and he would send prophets to warn them. This happened when the Israelites would mix in Baal worship with the way God instructed them to worship him (Deuteronomy 7:25, 26, 2 Kings 17:16). This displeased God and God would warn them to stop through prophets. There were times when the Israelites would follow the law, make their required sacrifices but include Baal worship and this would still displease God. Even though they would do most of what was required of them concerning their worship, mixing in Baal worship would cancel out any good part of their worship and would make their worship worthless in God’s eyes.

Another example in the Bible of God Caring about what his people believed is with the early Christian congregation.

Shortly after the Christian congregation was formed, there were some Jews that converted to Christianity but were still holding on to the law covenant. They insisted that Christians had to be circumcised in order to be acceptable to God (Act 15:1-29). This was a false teaching and God did not comprise for those who formally practiced Judaism. God didn’t let some believe and practice circumcision and others not. God used his holy spirit to direct the apostles and older men in the Christian congregation to come to a consensus that circumcision was not necessary and was not a Christian requirement(Romans 2:25-29). The examples in the Bible make it clear, God does not accept all forms of worship and any false teachings or false beliefs in oneâ??s worship God does not accept.

The first century Christians that formed after Jesus died and went back to heaven were the true Christians religion. However, Jesus prophesied with the wheat and weeds illustration that shortly after he planted fine seed which were Jesusâ?? followers who became Christians, Satan would plant weeds that would overtake the wheat and become the dominant type of Christian. Jesus would let them grow together until the conclusion of the system of things and then he would separate the two into two groups. By the time the conclusion of the system of things came the weeds would be the dominant type of Christian and the true Christians - the wheat would be small in number(Matthew 13:24-30, 36-42). During the time of the apostles false teachings started to enter into the Christian congregation which is why the Bible writers warned the first century Christians about deviating from true worship (1 Timothy 1:3,4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3,4; 2 John 2:9) The apostle Paul stated that after he and the other apostles died false teachings would enter in and overtake the Christian congregation(Acts 20:29,30). History shows that this is exactly what happened. During the second century, after all the apostles had died, Christians such as Justin Martyr started to blend Greek philosophy with Christian teachings. They thought this would appeal to the educated Romans who were heavily influence by Greek philosophy and thus make more converts. This is how teachings such as the immortality of the soul which was popularized by Greek philosopher Plato and not believed by the first century Christians, entered into the Christian congregation.

In order to find the true religion it is up to the individual. That person must make sure that his or her beliefs are in the Bible and if theyâ??re not then based on what the Bible states one must realize that God does not accept this worship. For example, all Christian religions, except one, uses the cross and images in their worship which is a clear violation of the commandment to flee from idolatry(1 Corinthians 10:14). An idol is an image, a representation of anything, or a symbol that is an object of passionate devotion, whether material or imagined. Generally speaking, idolatry is the veneration, love, worship, or adoration of an idol. No matter how one spins it using the cross in oneâ??s worship fits this description and is clearly idolatry. Most people who use the cross in their worship justify this by saying that it brings them closer to God. But does this reasoning cause God to compromise and make an exception to the use of an image? Let’s look back at the circumcision issue. When the issue came up as to whether Christians should get circumcised, the apostles could have compromised, reasoning that by including this law from the law covenant this could attract more Jews. But they didn’t. Guided by holy spirit, there was no compromise. God didn’t want Christians to practice circumcision so He made it clear by way of the apostles that this was not a requirement. The same can be said of using a cross in one’s worship to God. The Bible makes it clear that all forms of idolatry is wrong and a true Christian should not use crosses or images in their worship.

One final thing. Jesus said that at John 13:34,35 that all would know who his true disciples are because of the love they show among themselves. Think back to WW II. Germany was a Christian nation who had the support of its religious leaders. So was Greece, Italy, Japan and the U.S.A. They’re all praying to God and asking God to support them and help them win the war. Not only that, but the religious leaders of each country blessed their troops. So you had spiritual brothers and sisters of the same faith fighting and killing one another. Whose side do you think God was on? Does this show that they have love among themselves?
Now if there’s one group that refused to go to war and kill another person especially those of the same faith and a group that won’t join the military so there’ll never be a chance of killing a spiritual brother or sister of the same faith in another country. Which group do you think God will think has love among themselves: the groups that joins the military and are willing to kill people of the same faith or a group that refuses to join the military so there will never be a chance of killing someone of the same faith in a different country?

163

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Trib, you said this on page 5 of the “True religion” thread: >>>[/quote]Soundest historical interpretation of the Christian scriptures, yes. On past scientific evidence? Nope. Not my method at all. I DO know what I believe is utterly certain which is how I also know that 2+2=4 and that the scientific method itself is valid insofar as it’s used for God’s glory as well. Very rushed post. Sorry. Appointment.

164

[quote]ZEB wrote:

The historical Jesus is debated by very, very few. You can find people that still believe the world is flat so just because you can find a few in a google search doesn�¢??t mean that they hold much credit, regardless the above listing should answer your question.

[/quote]

When I said extra biblical evidence, I was referring to the divinity claims. If you want to argue a Jesus figure existed who preached morality and had a following then I don’t disagree. There is some evidence for that.

However, if you want to argue he performed miracles, was resurrected from the dead and is the son of god you still don’t have anything. I gave you the example of George Washington to illustrate that all claims made about an individual are assessed separately. It’s not a package deal.

Secondly, some of what you presented is hotly disputed. For instance, the Tacitus quote is seen by some scholars as him simply repeating what he had heard from Christians.

“Biblical scholar Bart D. Ehrman wrote: “Tacitus’s report confirms what we know from other sources, that Jesus was executed by order of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, sometime during Tiberius’s reign.”[60] Indeed, Charles Guignebert argued that “So long as there is that possibility [that Tacitus is merely echoing what Christians themselves were saying], the passage remains quite worthless”.[61] R. T. France concludes that the Tacitus passage is at best just Tacitus repeating what he has heard through Christians.[62][63]”

Also look a little closer about what you posted surrounding Josephus.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the AUTHENTICITY of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus [/quote]

165

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
anyone who thinks that God doesn’t exist has never been in a fox hole.[/quote]

So you are saying people who are hell bent on killing other people think God is on their side?
[/quote]

What these pinheads are actually doing is shitting on the many service men and women who put their lives on the line for their freedoms.

They both should be ashamed of themselves for posting such bullshit.

166

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
Trib, you said this on page 5 of the “True religion” thread: >>>[/quote]Soundest historical interpretation of the Christian scriptures, yes. On past scientific evidence? Nope. Not my method at all. I DO know what I believe is utterly certain which is how I also know that 2+2=4 and that the scientific method itself is valid insofar as it’s used for God’s glory as well. Very rushed post. Sorry. Appointment.
[/quote]

No worries about the rushed post dude. But your statements are very nebulous, very Hollywood-like. Yes, you didn’t explicitly say you use “the scientific method”, but you sure as hell used “sound interpretations” which implies evidence from observations. The two are one and the same.

I’m just asking how you know what you believe can be utterly certain when you cannot prove it’s existence or it’s source?

167

Here’s a list of some “atheist in fox holes”

The list of Atheists in Foxholes is over 200, starting with the most-recently submitted.

Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class John Yockachonis
Specialty: Aviation Structural Mechanic (Safety Equipment) - AME
Dates of Service: May 1986 - May 1990
Decorations: Good Conduct Medal
Tours of duty: VR-60 Squadron, 1987 - 1990
I had no problems with religion being pushed on me, excepting boot camp, where church attendance was compulsory. I was not openly atheist, and did not identify as atheist until years later, but I did not believe. It was something we never talked about, and I didn’t give it much thought, but I thought of heaven, hell and god as ridiculous constructs of men, not to be taken seriously.

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Air Force Staff Sergeant Derek Traywick
Personal Site
Specialty: Cyber Operations
Dates of Service: July 2003 - Present
Decorations: Joint Service Commendation, Air Force Commendation, Air Force Achievement, Good Conduct, National Defense Service, Iraq Campaign Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service, Korean Defense Service, AF Overseas Ribbon Short and Long, Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon with Gold Border, AF Longevity Service
Tours of duty: Ali Base Iraq 2006, Baghdad 2007, Other Iraqi locations 2008, 2010; Kabul 2012
My experience with religion in the military has been nothing but positive. I’ve been able to have discussions about various religious ideas with many other military members. My beliefs have always been respected by the military religious community (to include chaplains). It saddens me to hear that this is not the normal way we atheists are treated. I have spent most of my time deployed with SOF units and have seen first hand that there are a lot of us in foxholes out here!

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Navy Ensign Aaron Gaither
Specialty: Enlisted Aviation Maintenance Technician for 13 years, Aviation Maintenance Officer for 1 year
Dates of Service: May 1998 - Present
Decorations: Navy Commendation Medal, Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal (Five Awards), Meritorius Unit Commendation, Navy Battle “E” (Five Awards), Navy Good Conduct (Four Awards), National Defense Service, Armed Forces Expeditionary (Two Awards), Iraq Campaign Medal, Global War of Terrorism Expeditionary, Global War on Terrorism Service, Humanitarian Service, Sea Service Deployment (Five Awards), Overseas Service (Four Awards), Recruiting Ribbon, Navy Pistol
Tours of duty: Many tours with many dates
As a person who strives to see our government adhere to the Constitution, I am bound by that passion to pursue the separation of church and state, in this case, the separation of the military and religious affiliated activities. The evening prayer onboard ships and the invocation and benediction that I must listen to at ceremonies are obvious breeches of the Constitution and are seen by many as a way for a command or activity to show support for religion. As a scientist and a realist, I am also bound by a moral obligation to stand up for what I know to be true. I have spent more time studying the Bible and other religious scripture than most people who consider themselves “religious”. I have come to the common sense conclusion that is is just not factual. The case against the Intelligent Design theory is building everyday as we uncover new evidence of our evolution and it is becoming more increasingly difficult for theologians to support their claims. If I can be a small part in helping someone open their eyes to the truth, then I will be satisfied. In the 1700s, Thomas Paine put it best (substiute the word Christian with any other religion): “The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion. Not anything can be studied as a science, without our being in possession of the principles upon which it is founded; and as this is the case with Christian theology, it is therefore the study of nothing”

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Marine Sergeant Steve Dixon
Specialty: Aviation Electrician
Dates of Service: 1975 - 1979
Decorations: Good Conduct Medal
Tours of duty: June 1975 - June 1979, VMFA-251
I do not recall being forced to attend any kind of religious service (except in boot camp, but that ceased nearer to graduation), we were pretty much left alone. As for dog tags, I seem to recall a no preference choice, but cannot remember. My dog tags have long since disappeared in the numerous job related moves our family has made over the years, so cannot confirm. Why a religious choice is necessary for a dog tag is beyond me. Should it come to it, the family can take of any religious matters, if any.

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Air National Guard Captain Howard Grantham
Specialty: Former enlisted Combat Engineer, currently a Nurse Corps officer
Dates of Service: 1996-2000 United States Marine Corps; 2001-Present California Air National Guard/United States Air Force
Decorations: Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, Armed Forces Expeditionary Medal, Armed Forces Reserve Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Air Reserve Forces Meritorious Service Medal, Small Arms Expert Marksmanship Ribbon (Rifle and Pistol), Marine Corps Expert Rifle Badge (2nd award)
Tours of duty: 11th Marine Expeditionary Unit June-December 1999
I have encountered subtle and not-so-subtle pressure regarding religious belief from time to time. While it has not often been an issue for day-to-day service, religious influence and privilege are pervasive, both in the active and reserve forces. I have noticed, however, that more of my comrades are keeping their heads up during prayer services disguised as formations (the only way to know this being to keep your own head up!). As an officer nearing the end of my twenty years, I have developed more confidence speaking out against religious statements phrased as policy. I have also been more outspoken regarding the excess of political conservatism in the service, which seems to go hand in hand with religious extremism. Military personnel, and junior personnel specifically, are more likely to be pressured to conform, so it is imperative that those of us who have been around a while exercise leadership in promoting the secular values our country and military were founded on.

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Army National Guard Sergeant Donald Ferguson
Specialty: Combat Engineer, Radio Operator-Maintainer, Automated Logistical Specialist
Dates of Service: 1998 to present
Decorations: Purple Heart, Iraq Campaign Medal, Army Commendation (2 awards), Army Achievement (3 awards), Joint Meritorious Unit Award, Meritorious Unit Commendation, Army Good Conduct Medal, Reserve Components Achievement Medal (6 awards), National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terror Expeditionary, Global War on Terror Service, Utah National Guard Commendation Medal, Armed Forces Reserve Medal (Mobilized), Combat Action Badge
Tours of duty: Baghdad Iraq 2003-2004, Tallil Iraq 2005-2006
I was raised as a Mormon in Utah. Everyone around me, neighbors, friends, family, extended family were all Mormons too. I believed because I never had a reason to question things. At the age of 19 I served a two-year proselytizing mission for the church. I joined the Army at the age of 25, by that point I had begun to question some things about the church, but I still considered myself a Mormon and still attended services all through basic training and AIT. Once back home and drilling with my unit, I met a few soldiers who were not Mormons or liberal Mormons, or ex-Mormons, those guys working alongside believing Mormons led to many, many interesting discussions where more and more I belonged on the side of rational skepticism. It was 1999 or 2000 and Carl Sagan’s book Demon Haunted World made me realize I could no longer believe the irrational. I quit going to church and no longer considered myself a Mormon, but it was 2008 and the church’s involvement in California’s Proposition 8 that made me decide I could no longer tolerate any affiliation with the organization, so I formally requested my name be removed from the church roster. At that point I was refused new dog tags to update the religion block with ‘atheist’ or ‘humanist’ so I just had my own made online. One says ‘atheist’ the other says ‘secularhumanist’ (had to make it all one word, but it fit). Like many here I have stood quietly through invocations at formal ceremonies or dinners, and through prayers for strength and safety before combat operations.

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Army Private 1st Class Ian Wilson
Specialty: Cryptologic Linguist
Dates of Service: June 2010 - Present

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Navy Reserve Petty Officer 3rd Class William Chambers
Specialty: Diesel Mechanic
Dates of Service: 2007 - present
Tours of duty: 2008 - 2009 Iraq
I haven’t had a big problem with this really. I wasn’t yet open about my beliefs or certain yet at that point in time. It has not been a quick process. You know undoing 30 years of upbringing and life experience, but I believe it is right. And about prayer in combat? whatever keeps you sane. I might utter some words if i were scared to death or something, I dunno I might not. You would certainly be able to think more clearly in a critical situation though if you didn’t have to think about what time it was and whether you missed your prayer. whether you slipped up and said a curse word you could use all your mental effort to find a way to complete your mission and/or survive the situation. sometimes that little bit helps. it also doesn’t help if you are blinded by thinking that god is going to miraculously abracadabra your butt out of a bind either. Because it will not happen. you will die. I will say this though about religious tolerance, the first friend I made after bootcamp was a girl who was born and raised muslim and still is muslim. her husband is an active duty marine. I later deployed with her and went to “A” school (job training) with her as well. She is a great friend. Some people might think …“oh no a muslim”… but they would be ignorant.

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Army Major Domingos Robinson
Specialty: Army Band Officer
Dates of Service: August 1998 - Present
I’ve been an agnostic most of my life and an atheist for almost half my life. I’ve never encountered any problems being an atheist in the military, and even have a good friend who is a chaplain (and he knows I’m an atheist). But, the overt religiousness of the military does get old sometimes. The strangest thing was having a chaplain provide support to my change of command ceremonies, knowing that not only did the other people participating in the ceremony expect a chaplain, so did everyone attending. I wonder how it looked for me to stand up there with my head high, eyes forward during the invocation…

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Air Force Airman 1st Class Patrick Madden
Member of RAF Lakenheath AF
Specialty: Fuels Vehicle Mechanic, Fuels Distribution Operator
Dates of Service: 15 May 2009 - Present
Decorations: Air Force Overseas Ribbon Short, Global War on Terrorism Expiditionary Medal, Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon
Tours of duty: Ali Al Salem Kuwait Operation New Dawn Jun 2010, Aviano Italy Operation Odyssey Dawn May 2010-Mar 2011
I do not believe in a god and I have served my country without a god. I won’t fall to my knees and pray in combat when I could do something more productive with my time like reload, use the radio, or perform Buddy Care. I think if people want to pray in the Military then they should do it at the Chapel or in their home with their family.

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Air Force 2nd Lieutenant Madison Scaccia
Specialty: Logistics Readiness
Dates of Service: Aug 2011 - present
I used to be afraid of my atheism. As a child, I tried so hard to believe. I did the youth groups, the Bible study, all of that. It never clicked. It never made sense to me. Everyone tells you to work hard and to push yourself, but then, at the end of it, you’re supposed to thank god? What gives? In high school, I asked myself: honestly, do I believe this stuff? When I realized the answer was a resounding “no”, I finally decided enough was enough, and that I wasn’t going to buy into it anymore. I’m fine with religion for the most part. If someone wants to live their life based on a theistic doctrine, that’s fine by me. What really gets me is the fact that every military event I attend begins with an “invocation”, meaning “prayer”. I was given the opportunity to give an invocation at an ROTC event a few years ago, and not once did I reference a god. It IS possible to remind your fellow service members to think about their deployed buddies, to keep their families in your thoughts, to remember the ones you lost without going through a deity first. I do admit that this specific tradition is part of the military culture, and not something I want to speak out against at the risk of putting personal beliefs before the mission. However, when it all hits the fan, I’ll be depending on the airman next to me, not god. If you’ve got my back, I don’t really care WHAT you believe. My dog tags say “Atheist” and it’s not something I’m PROUD of; it just IS.

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Army National Guard Sergeant 1st Class Casey Braden
Specialty: CBRN (Chemical, Biological, Radiological, Nuclear)
Dates of Service: June 1999 - Present
Decorations: Army Commendation Medal (x2), Army Achievement Medal (x3), National Defense Service Medal, Global War on Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, Army NCO Professional Development Ribbon, Army Service Ribbon, Army Reserves Overseas Training Ribbon
Tours of duty: Operation Noble Eagle October 2003-June 2005, Operation Enduring Freedom July 2011-Present
I recently had someone learn that I was an atheist and say, “But you are one of the nicest, happiest people I know! That doesn’t make any sense!” I aim to change people’s opinions about what it means to be an atheist, and to show that you don’t need belief in some supernatural being to be a good person. I also think that the military needs to realize that not everyone in their ranks is a Christian, and that Chaplain-led Christian prayers in formation are grossly inappropriate. It seems that our Chaplain believes that if he prefaces every prayer with “I invite you to pray in your faith tradition as I pray in mine,” it makes it all okay.

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Marine Master Gunnery Sergeant Cody Heaps
Specialty: Intelligence Chief
Dates of Service: January 1991 - Present
Decorations: Bronze Star Medal, Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medal, Joint Service Achievement Medal, Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal (2nd award), Combat Action Ribbon
Tours of duty: 2011-Pres 3D Marine Logistics Group Okinawa Japan, 2008-2011 1st Marine Aircraft Wing Okinawa Japan, 2007-2008 MNSTC-I Baghdad Iraq, 2006-2007 1st Marine Aircraft Wing Okinawa Japan, 2005-2006 6TH Marine Regiment Camp Lejeune NC, 2004-2005 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit (OIF2-1, 2-2, 3-1), 2002-2003 2nd Intelligence Battalion (OIF), 2001-2002 Joint Military Intelligence College Washington DC, 2000-2001 Navy & Marine Corps Intelligence Training Center Dam Neck VA, 1998-1999 HMM-266 (24th MEU) New River Air Station NC, 1996-1997 6TH Marine Regiment Camp Lejeune NC, 1996 JAC Molesworth England, 1995-1996 6TH Marine Regiment Camp Lejeune NC, 1994-1995 JTF-160 Cuba, 1994-1995 1st Battalion, 2nd Marines Camp Lejeune NC, 1993 2nd Battalion, 2nd Marines Camp Lejeune NC, 1991-1992 B Co Marine Barracks Philippines, 1991 MCRD, MCT & SOI Rifleman San Diego and Camp Pendleton CA
I started rejecting the theists’ claims in summer 2009 while serving as an elder in the 7th Day Adventist Church. After 40+ years of faithful Christian service in two fundamental faiths, Latter-Day Saints (Missionary & Temple Worker) and 7th Day Adventist, I accepted the position that God is a myth and religions are a scam, based on exhaustive study in comparative religions and everything associated with the “New Atheist” Movement. Bottom Line: God never revealed himself to me so I had no reason to continue the delusion. I actually care if my beliefs are true and nothing infuriates me more than a theist who lacks the courage to be intellectually honest. So far, I have had a chaplain and former pastor admit, after hours of intense discussion, that they don’t know if God exists either. Outside of a few faith-heads, most Marines I talk with are ambivalent, especially younger ones, towards the nature and existence of God. I hold no honor for anyone who ‘lies for the Lord’ so most chaplains just look sheepish and cowardly after they discover my secular, atheist position. So far, no worries but hell at this point in my career, take your best shot - I am ready!

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Air Force Tech Sergeant Kenneth Labelle
Specialty: Cryptologic Language Analyst
Dates of Service: 2 Jan 2002 - Present
Decorations: Joint Commendation Medal (one oak leaf cluster), Air Force Achievement Medal, Army Achievement Medal
Tours of duty: Jan 2002 - Feb 2002, Basic Training, Lackland AFB; Feb 2002 - June 2003, Presidio of Monterey, CA; June 2003-June 2005, Beale AFB, CA; June 2005 - June 2008, Misawa AB, Japan; June 2008 - Present, Goodfellow AFB, TX. 2 deployments to Baghdad, Iraq - July 2006-January 2007, March 2010-September 2010
With regards to hazardous duty, as mentioned in my tours above, I’ve been deployed to Iraq twice as an analyst. 2006 was definitely more hairy, but I honestly had a harder time the 2nd time around in 2010. More political stresses than combat, it seemed. As to prayer in combat, as long as its done privately and doesn’t hamper accomplishment of the mission, I have no problem with it. But the military doesn’t seem to see it that way, particularly the private side of it. My biggest issue currently is the tendency of the military to trot out a chaplain at every major event - be it a commanders call, change of command ceremony, drill competition, etc - and have them ask everyone to bow their heads and pray to “the Lord”, apparently meaning Jesus. It’s bad enough being an atheist and having to hear that (not that I bow my head, I usually spend the prayer looking around to see how many other non-praying people I can spot), but I can’t imagine how offensive it must be to people there who may privately worship other things. It does not fit with the party line in the military that we support freedom of religion and/or religious tolerance. Its official endorsement of Christianity, as far as I’m concerned.

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Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Christine Legawiec
Board Member
Specialty: C-130 Pilot
Dates of Service: 1996-present
Decorations: Aerial Achievement, Meritorious Service, GWOT Service
Tours of duty: Kuwait, 2000; Balkans, 2000-2005; OEF, 2001-2005; OIF, 2003-2004, ONE, 2008
No atheists in foxholes? Really? So when things get tough I’m supposed to forget my training, put away my courage and just pray? No way. I have to count on me, on my crew, and on my fellow service members to do our jobs to the best of our ability. Our lives depend on it. If you stop performing the mission to pray, you are putting all of us at risk.

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Coast Guard Petty Officer 3rd Class Richard Carrier
Specialty: Sonar (operation, maintenance, and repair of all sonar and torpedo systems); Duty Gunner’s Mate; Flight Deck Firefighter
Dates of Service: September 1990 to August 1992
Decorations: (1) National Defense Service Medal, (2) USCG Marksman Ribbon
Tours of duty: Training Center Cape May (New Jersey), Security Clearances Division (1990); Fleet Antisubmarine Warfare Training Center Pacific (FLEASWTRACENPAC) San Diego (California) (1990-2991); USCGC Sherman (WHEC 720) Pacific Northwest Patrol (1991-1992)
Certainly when I was in service the Coast Guard had a strong contingent of liberals and progressives in all ranks devoted to its peacetime law enforcement and search and rescue mission, and in result the entire force was professionally secular in all active components and very accommodating of diverse religious views in private affairs. Pretty much the way the rest of the services should be.

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Army Reserve Staff Sergeant Louis Goldstein
Specialty: 12B Combat ENG. Spent my year in AFG as a squad leader and member of a Route Clearance Platoon that cleared over 100 IEDs during our year in country.
Dates of Service: Nov2002-current
Decorations: Bronze Star, Purple Heart x2, Army Commendation Medal x2 1w “V” for Valor, Army Achievement Medal
Tours of duty: 20 Aug 2010 - 20 Aug 2011

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Marine Sergeant Joshua Greenfield
Specialty: Combat Camera
Dates of Service: April 2004 - April 2012
Decorations: (1) Afghanistan Campaign Medal, (1) Iraq Campaign Medal, (1) Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, (2) Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, (1) National Defense Service Medal, (1) NATO Medal-ISAF Afghanistan, (1) Navy and Marine Corps Achievment Medal, (3) Sea Service Deployment Ribbon
Tours of duty: Iraq: Feb 2005 - Feb 2006. Afghanistan: April 2009 - April 2010, March 2011 - Present
Being a Marine and an atheist is an interesting challenge. The three pillars that the Corps values are founded on are “God, Country, and Corps.” I can honestly say that I’ve never been discriminated against personally, but that’s only because I generally don’t make my atheism public. But I will definitely speak up when I hear a fellow Marine spouting ignorant religious dogma. Most of them don’t even know why they’re religious in the first place! That being said, it sometimes feels like I’m the only one. I know that’s not true at all, which is why I joined this group, to meet other atheists in the military. There’s one thing I know for certain, that if it wasn’t for religion, I wouldn’t be stuck in this hell hole of a country fighting an invisible enemy. Atheists as a whole need to be more assertive, with respect, to help people see the folly of their archaic beliefs. I know it’s not easy, but I’m in it for the long haul. Let’s get organized and let others know we’re here!

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Navy Master Chief Petty Officer Larry Bucher
Specialty: Communications
Dates of Service: 1952-56, 1958-77
Decorations: Two Navy Achievement Medals and about eight geographical medals
Tours of duty: 1952-53 boot camp and a service school. 1953-54 USS Iowa. 1954-55 Naples Italy. 1955-56 London England. 1958-59 another service school (converted me from Teleman to Radioman). 1959-61 NAVCOMMSTA Asmara (Ethiopia). 1962 USS Rhodes. 1963-65 Naples again. 1966 USS Franklin D Roosevelt. 1967-68 NAVSUPPACT Danang. 1969-71 Asmara again. 1971-73 Naval Air Station Dallas TX. 1974-77 COMCRUDESGRU TWO (cruiser-destroyer group, rear admiral’s staff) Newport RI briefly then Charleston SC.
Although I spent 19 months in-country Vietnam, it was in a relatively safe rear area and I never experienced anything resembling combat, never carried a weapon, and never felt myself in any imminent danger, not even during Tet. Plus another five-six months on a ship offshore. I’m reasonably sure that if ever in combat the closest thing to a prayer I might have uttered would have been, “Oh, shit!” In 1952 boot camp we were told that everyone had to go to a religious service Sunday morning – unless you had identified yourself as an atheist on your enlistment papers. But it was apparent that it was not being enforced, no names taken, so after the first couple weeks only the incorrigibly devout continued to attend. On my first ship a friend and I were caught on the quarterdeck when the chaplain came on the PA system for the evening prayer. Masters-at-arms yelled at us to take off our hats. We did. In Naples a friend was hassled when he reenlisted; he had indicated atheist on his reenlistment papers, some meddler in personnel brought it to the chaplain’s attention and the chaplain called him in for spiritual reclamation. Neither converted the other. In Danang I had to get the chaplain’s initials on my request for six-month extension. It went well until the end, when he asked my religion. “None, sir.” I had no choice but to endure his grumpy disapprobation which was thankfully brief, and included indictment of Radiomen in general. Some of my sailors had earlier earned his disapproval. In the 50s, beards were legal with prior approval, but as beards became identified with hippies, radicals, the 60s counterculture, they fell out of fashion were banned in 1982.

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Air Force Staff Sergeant Nathan Meier
Specialty: Financial Management and Accounting
Dates of Service: 1998 - Present
Decorations: Air Force Achievement Medal, AF Good Conduct Medal (x4), National Defense Service Medal, Global War On Terrorism Expeditionary Medal, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, Air Force Expeditionary Service Ribbon with Gold Border
Tours of duty: 1998 - 2002 Ramstien AFB Germany, 2002 - 2005 Little Rock AFB AR, 2005 - 2009 Misawa AB Japan, Jan 2009 - Jun 2009 Ali Al Salem Kuwait, 2009 - Present Vance AFB OK
I was a Christian when I joined and subsequently became a Chapel rope during Tech School. I stood up for the unpopular Wiccans at the time who had a Chapel Rope of their own which I thought was really great. Later after studying more about alternative religions I fell into the “No Religious Preference” crowd. In my search for religion and a way to describe my beliefs I found no religion. Now I am proud of my secular beliefs and made sure to update all of my records so that they reflect that in the best way possible. I have not had any problems though I know the more active I get in the community to try and educate the public on Secular beliefs I will encounter some.

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Army 1st Lieutenant Landon Fisher
Specialty: 11A, Infantry Officer
Dates of Service: 29 May 2009 - Present
Decorations: Bronze Star, Global War on Terror Service Medal, National Defense Service Medal, Afghan Campaign Service Medal (two campaigns), Army Service Ribbon, Overseas Service Ribbon, Nato Service Medal.
Tours of duty: Afghanistan (Feb 11 - Nov 11)

168

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

If I said Harry Potter was historical fact, would you have to read all the Harry Potters before you can dismiss this claim?[/quote]

Not relevant. If I spent most my time critiquing the Harry Potter History Group, wouldn’t you expect me to be familiar with the Harry Potter books and what the Harry Potter History Group believes?[/quote]

Actually I like to debate with Christians on social issues. Their personal religious beliefs do not matter as only secular arguments hold any water.

Secondly, even if I had read the whole bible cannon and studied it for years, there are so many bible interpretations that a Christian could simply say they interpret certain passages differently. Just look at the debate on passages that occurs in this forum.

So no, you don’t have a point.

169

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, then I rephrase my statement to encompass this earlier event. Abiotic processes producing organic molecules is the uncaused-cause. You get my point. Some event in the biology chain is the uncaused-cause. The argument still holds.[/quote]

But those abiotic process are then explained by geology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, and so on. In short, the matter and energy shaping the earth and it’s environment (including the above abiotic processes) have explanations/causes. [/quote]

Out of curiosity, is your education background in science?

170

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, then I rephrase my statement to encompass this earlier event. Abiotic processes producing organic molecules is the uncaused-cause. You get my point. Some event in the biology chain is the uncaused-cause. The argument still holds.[/quote]

But those abiotic process are then explained by geology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, and so on. In short, the matter and energy shaping the earth and it’s environment (including the above abiotic processes) have explanations/causes. [/quote]

Out of curiosity, is your education background in science? [/quote]

So far (attending). Why?

171

[quote]therajraj wrote:

However, if you want to argue he performed miracles, was resurrected from the dead and is the son of god you still don’t have anything. I gave you the example of George Washington to illustrate that all claims made about an individual are assessed separately. It’s not a package deal.[/quote]

We have the testimony of those who walked with him. They are all liars? I suppose it makes sense to lay your life down for someone that you made up stories about. Right?

LOL…Yeah!

Why don’t you take some time and actually study the Christian Bible. All your doing now is throwing rotten tomato’s at something you actually know nothing about.

172

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, then I rephrase my statement to encompass this earlier event. Abiotic processes producing organic molecules is the uncaused-cause. You get my point. Some event in the biology chain is the uncaused-cause. The argument still holds.[/quote]

But those abiotic process are then explained by geology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, and so on. In short, the matter and energy shaping the earth and it’s environment (including the above abiotic processes) have explanations/causes. [/quote]

Out of curiosity, is your education background in science? [/quote]

So far (attending). Why?
[/quote]

Just by your comments in this thread, it sounds like you have some sort of science background.

173

[quote]ZEB wrote:

We have the testimony of those who walked with him. They are all liars? I suppose it makes sense to lay your life down for someone that you made up stories about. Right? [/quote]

We also have the testimony of people who claimed to be abducted by aliens. They will give you detailed accounts of their experience and you will find similarities between completely separate accounts.

Do you believe them too?

174

Most scholars believe that Mark was written around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70.[54][55][56]

175

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

If I said Harry Potter was historical fact, would you have to read all the Harry Potters before you can dismiss this claim?[/quote]

Not relevant. If I spent most my time critiquing the Harry Potter History Group, wouldn’t you expect me to be familiar with the Harry Potter books and what the Harry Potter History Group believes?[/quote]

An intelligent person could conclude that Harry Potter is bunk after one chapter.

176

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Cause. As in something that necessitates an effect. Time doesn’t effect the argument because it is based upon contingency. So go ahead and add a quadrillion more dimensions. It won’t effect the base argument one iota. [/quote]

If you’re looking for the uncaused cause, here it is. Yes, our universe obviously had a beginning, but the “stuff” that makes up our universe has always existed, assuming our modern physicists are worth their salt.

M-theory removes the need for God as an explanation for how our universe came into existence. [/quote]

Well, nice to know it’s settled then. M-theory has closed the agnostic loophole.

177

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
You are only delaying the inevitable. All that matter must have come from somewhere.[/quote]

M-theory postulates the probability of other dimensions (up to 11 different spacial dimensions). All the ones above 4 would be above time and therefore not require a first cause.
[/quote]

M-theory does not “postulate the probability of up to 11 different spacial dimensions.” It requires 10 different spacial dimensions or it does not work at all, and it uses a Minkowski continuum to describe what you probably think of as the “fourth” dimension, which is not spacial. And the extra dimensions are not necessarily “above” the four we know about. Wikipedia and Brian Greene may not be up to date, but recent data from experiments with the LHC have produced data that severely limits the potential size and scope of so-called “higher dimensions,” so don’t expect M-theory to be around in its current state much longer. We need a new one, or a highly revised version of this one. Even if it wasn’t on the verge of being proven mostly wrong, no where in M-theory is there anything that could be considered an “uncaused cause.” That is not what M-theory and the other string theories are trying to do, and if the people doing research into M-theory even tried to do so, they would be the laughing stock of the physics community. [/quote]

Well, darnit. We’ll just have to look harder for the reason God doesn’t exist.

178

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, then I rephrase my statement to encompass this earlier event. Abiotic processes producing organic molecules is the uncaused-cause. You get my point. Some event in the biology chain is the uncaused-cause. The argument still holds.[/quote]

But those abiotic process are then explained by geology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, and so on. In short, the matter and energy shaping the earth and it’s environment (including the above abiotic processes) have explanations/causes. [/quote]

Out of curiosity, is your education background in science? [/quote]

So far (attending). Why?
[/quote]

Do you agree with Santorum that Universities are indoctrination mills?

Are you attending a religious university?

179

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Cause. As in something that necessitates an effect. Time doesn’t effect the argument because it is based upon contingency. So go ahead and add a quadrillion more dimensions. It won’t effect the base argument one iota. [/quote]

If you’re looking for the uncaused cause, here it is. Yes, our universe obviously had a beginning, but the “stuff” that makes up our universe has always existed, assuming our modern physicists are worth their salt.

M-theory removes the need for God as an explanation for how our universe came into existence. [/quote]

Clitoris , time does not effect what argument ?

Well, nice to know it’s settled then. M-theory has closed the agnostic loophole.
[/quote]

180

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
You are only delaying the inevitable. All that matter must have come from somewhere.[/quote]

M-theory postulates the probability of other dimensions (up to 11 different spacial dimensions). All the ones above 4 would be above time and therefore not require a first cause.
[/quote]

M-theory does not “postulate the probability of up to 11 different spacial dimensions.” It requires 10 different spacial dimensions or it does not work at all, and it uses a Minkowski continuum to describe what you probably think of as the “fourth” dimension, which is not spacial. And the extra dimensions are not necessarily “above” the four we know about. Wikipedia and Brian Greene may not be up to date, but recent data from experiments with the LHC have produced data that severely limits the potential size and scope of so-called “higher dimensions,” so don’t expect M-theory to be around in its current state much longer. We need a new one, or a highly revised version of this one. Even if it wasn’t on the verge of being proven mostly wrong, no where in M-theory is there anything that could be considered an “uncaused cause.” That is not what M-theory and the other string theories are trying to do, and if the people doing research into M-theory even tried to do so, they would be the laughing stock of the physics community. [/quote]

Well, darnit. We’ll just have to look harder for the reason God doesn’t exist.
[/quote]

You’ve skipped over the second half of that conversation.