What is the True Religion?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Cause. As in something that necessitates an effect. Time doesn’t effect the argument because it is based upon contingency. So go ahead and add a quadrillion more dimensions. It won’t effect the base argument one iota. [/quote]

If you’re looking for the uncaused cause, here it is. Yes, our universe obviously had a beginning, but the “stuff” that makes up our universe has always existed, assuming our modern physicists are worth their salt.

M-theory removes the need for God as an explanation for how our universe came into existence. [/quote]

Clitoris , time does not effect what argument ?

Well, nice to know it’s settled then. M-theory has closed the agnostic loophole.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Time, as most people perceive it, does not really affect any of the arguments made by anyone in this thread in any major physical capacity. Something does not need to exist within the constraints of “time” in order to have a cause.

182

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Cause. As in something that necessitates an effect. Time doesn’t effect the argument because it is based upon contingency. So go ahead and add a quadrillion more dimensions. It won’t effect the base argument one iota. [/quote]

If you’re looking for the uncaused cause, here it is. Yes, our universe obviously had a beginning, but the “stuff” that makes up our universe has always existed, assuming our modern physicists are worth their salt.

M-theory removes the need for God as an explanation for how our universe came into existence. [/quote]

Clitoris , time does not effect what argument ?

Well, nice to know it’s settled then. M-theory has closed the agnostic loophole.
[/quote]
[/quote]

Time, as most people perceive it, does not really affect any of the arguments made by anyone in this thread in any major physical capacity. Something does not need to exist within the constraints of “time” in order to have a cause.
[/quote]

While it all sounds pretty , time is vital in all matters

183

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, then I rephrase my statement to encompass this earlier event. Abiotic processes producing organic molecules is the uncaused-cause. You get my point. Some event in the biology chain is the uncaused-cause. The argument still holds.[/quote]

But those abiotic process are then explained by geology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, and so on. In short, the matter and energy shaping the earth and it’s environment (including the above abiotic processes) have explanations/causes. [/quote]

Out of curiosity, is your education background in science? [/quote]

So far (attending). Why?
[/quote]

Do you agree with Santorum that Universities are indoctrination mills?

Are you attending a religious university?[/quote]

Oh, I’ve heard a number of liberal comments from Professors, for sure.

Nope. Perhaps I will eventually, though.

184

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

While it all sounds pretty , time is vital in all matters
[/quote]
,
No, it isn’t. Things happen in our observable universe within a reference frame of “time,” but time itself is not usually the cause, it only determines how we perceive events. From the reference frame of a particle travelling at the speed of light, there is not even a passage of time as we experience it.

185

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

We have the testimony of those who walked with him. They are all liars? I suppose it makes sense to lay your life down for someone that you made up stories about. Right? [/quote]

We also have the testimony of people who claimed to be abducted by aliens. They will give you detailed accounts of their experience and you will find similarities between completely separate accounts.

Do you believe them too?
[/quote]

  1. What you are claiming is that if one believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God he will then believe in alien abductions. Quite a stretch even for you. Tell me how many of those who claim to have been abducted have died for their cause?

Certainly, anyone can make up a story, but what is the motivation of a person like Peter, James or the most prolific writer of the New Testament Paul? People lie for money yet they made none. People lie for fame yet they had none. How many people lie so that they can die horrible deaths? What was their motivation if not the truth?

  1. One more time, before you say there is no God why don’t you look in the places where others have discovered God? You’ve never studied the religions of the world, much less even read the Christian Bible. To condemn a book that you have never read and certainly do not understand seems rather closed minded of you.
186

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Do you agree with Santorum that Universities are indoctrination mills?[/quote]

That question may not have been directed at me. But, with the work I do I have spoken at many Universities and there is absolutely no question that there is a liberal slant placed on just about every topic.

187

[quote]ZEB wrote:

  1. What you are claiming is that if one believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God he will then believe in alien abductions. Quite a stretch even for you. Tell me how many of those who claim to have been abducted have died for their cause? [/quote]

What I’m claiming is that there’s equal evidence for these two extraordinary claims. What is your justification of accepting one and not the other? Heck, you can actually walk up to a person who has been abducted by aliens, interview them and look for signs if they are lying in person.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Certainly, anyone can make up a story, but what is the motivation of a person like Peter, James or the most prolific writer of the New Testament Paul? People lie for money yet they made none. People lie for fame yet they had none. How many people lie so that they can die horrible deaths? What was their motivation if not the truth? [/quote]

It’s not necessarily their motivation I’m questioning. Look at the time period that these events were have said to taken place. These people were very ignorant and believed in a host of mythical things - witches, magic, curses etc.

Not only that, there isn’t a single eye witness account for Jesus.

188

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]njrusmc wrote:
OK, then I rephrase my statement to encompass this earlier event. Abiotic processes producing organic molecules is the uncaused-cause. You get my point. Some event in the biology chain is the uncaused-cause. The argument still holds.[/quote]

But those abiotic process are then explained by geology, chemistry, physics, astrophysics, and so on. In short, the matter and energy shaping the earth and it’s environment (including the above abiotic processes) have explanations/causes. [/quote]

Out of curiosity, is your education background in science? [/quote]

So far (attending). Why?
[/quote]

Do you agree with Santorum that Universities are indoctrination mills?

Are you attending a religious university?[/quote]

Oh, I’ve heard a number of liberal comments from Professors, for sure.

Nope. Perhaps I will eventually, though.
[/quote]

Probably comes with the territory of studying science though.

I saw a a survey one time that stated 65% of american scientists are atheists which is more than quadruple their representation in the population.

189

[quote]therajraj wrote:
ZEB wrote:

  1. What you are claiming is that if one believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God he will then believe in alien abductions. Quite a stretch even for you. Tell me how many of those who claim to have been abducted have died for their cause?

What I’m claiming is that there’s equal evidence for these two extraordinary claims. What is your justification of accepting one and not the other? Heck, you can actually walk up to a person who has been abducted by aliens, interview them and look for signs if they are lying in person.[/quote]

For the third time. I’ve not seen credible people go to their death because they would not recant a lie about aliens. For example, if you had studied any Christian history (which you won’t do because you are too closed minded) you would know that Paul was a Jewish scholar who was an up and comer. He was also persecuting Christians (much to the glee of the Jewish elite). Why did he give up his status and potential wealth as well? Your analogy of those lying about alin abductions is sorely lacking.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Certainly, anyone can make up a story, but what is the motivation of a person like Peter, James or the most prolific writer of the New Testament Paul? People lie for money yet they made none. People lie for fame yet they had none. How many people lie so that they can die horrible deaths? What was their motivation if not the truth?

It’s not necessarily their motivation I’m questioning. Look at the time period that these events were have said to taken place. These people were very ignorant and believed in a host of mythical things - witches, magic, curses etc.[/quote]

Once again, Paul the most prolific writer of the New Testament was highly educated in law and Judiasm. Far, far from being an ignorant man. And there were others as well who were certainly not ignorant who wrote about and studied the life of Jesus Christ. But you wouldn’t know this because you refuse to learn anything about a topic that you’ve already deemed yourself to be an expert on.

[quote]Not only that, there isn’t a single eye witness account for Jesus.
[/quote]

There were hundreds of eye witnesses, probably thousands. But certainly, as I’ve said a number of eye witnesses accounts of Jesus Christ were written about in the Bible and outside of the Bible as well. Matthew, Peter, James, Paul and others write about Jesus Christ giving first hand testimony.

You really need to read some Christian history, and look into the religions of the world before you run all over the Internet claiming that there is no God.

190

I don’t think you can have it both ways though ZEB. I would certainly agree that there is evidence for a historical Jesus. The same as a historical Socrates. However if one wants to take a historical view than all of the documents from the time should be involved not just those that made the canon as it were.

Even if one grants there was a historical Jesus there is still a long row to hoe to get him to be God.

No one claims religion doesn’t exist it most certainly does. If God were to exist, I think religion does him a large disservice by and large.

191

[quote]ZEB wrote:

For the third time. I’ve not seen credible people go to their death because they would not recant a lie about aliens.
[/quote]

192

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t think you can have it both ways though ZEB. I would certainly agree that there is evidence for a historical Jesus. The same as a historical Socrates. However if one wants to take a historical view than all of the documents from the time should be involved not just those that made the canon as it were. Even if one grants there was a historical Jesus there is still a long row to hoe to get him to be God.
[/quote]

The Bible is a religious document but it is also an historical record. Written by many people who walked with Christ. Those people can be called liars by some but I ask once again, what is there motivation? I’ve noticed that if there is no reason to lie people will usually tell the truth, unless of course they are psychopaths. I’ve given some of the background of those who walked with Christ and witnessed the miracles. These were upstanding men. Some very basic people perhaps too simple to lie. Others very well educated men who had much to lose by telling the truth. They are all witnesses to Jesus Christ and the many miracles that he performed.

God is well aware of man’s short comings. Man is far from perfect. But to attack religion because it is not perfect does what? What good comes from trying to take down an institution which has been the bedrock of our society and does much good…even in its imperfection.

193

[quote]groo wrote:<<< If God were to exist, I think religion does him a large disservice by and large.[/quote]Groo hits another hallelujah worthy bullseye.

194

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

While it all sounds pretty , time is vital in all matters
[/quote]
,
No, it isn’t. Things happen in our observable universe within a reference frame of “time,” but time itself is not usually the cause, it only determines how we perceive events. From the reference frame of a particle travelling at the speed of light, there is not even a passage of time as we experience it.
[/quote]

Everything is defined by what when and where , with out when you would have reference point

195

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t think you can have it both ways though ZEB. I would certainly agree that there is evidence for a historical Jesus. The same as a historical Socrates. However if one wants to take a historical view than all of the documents from the time should be involved not just those that made the canon as it were. Even if one grants there was a historical Jesus there is still a long row to hoe to get him to be God.
[/quote]

The Bible is a religious document but it is also an historical record. Written by many people who walked with Christ. Those people can be called liars by some but I ask once again, what is there motivation? I’ve noticed that if there is no reason to lie people will usually tell the truth, unless of course they are psychopaths. I’ve given some of the background of those who walked with Christ and witnessed the miracles. These were upstanding men. Some very basic people perhaps too simple to lie. Others very well educated men who had much to lose by telling the truth. They are all witnesses to Jesus Christ and the many miracles that he performed.

God is well aware of man’s short comings. Man is far from perfect. But to attack religion because it is not perfect does what? What good comes from trying to take down an institution which has been the bedrock of our society and does much good…even in its imperfection.[/quote]

I personally see nothing wrong attacking a man’s Religion because I believe if Christ were alive today he would attack Christianity

196

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t think you can have it both ways though ZEB. I would certainly agree that there is evidence for a historical Jesus. The same as a historical Socrates. However if one wants to take a historical view than all of the documents from the time should be involved not just those that made the canon as it were. Even if one grants there was a historical Jesus there is still a long row to hoe to get him to be God.
[/quote]

The Bible is a religious document but it is also an historical record. Written by many people who walked with Christ. Those people can be called liars by some but I ask once again, what is there motivation? I’ve noticed that if there is no reason to lie people will usually tell the truth, unless of course they are psychopaths. I’ve given some of the background of those who walked with Christ and witnessed the miracles. These were upstanding men. Some very basic people perhaps too simple to lie. Others very well educated men who had much to lose by telling the truth. They are all witnesses to Jesus Christ and the many miracles that he performed.

God is well aware of man’s short comings. Man is far from perfect. But to attack religion because it is not perfect does what? What good comes from trying to take down an institution which has been the bedrock of our society and does much good…even in its imperfection.[/quote]

I personally see nothing wrong attacking a man’s Religion because I believe if Christ were alive today he would attack Christianity [/quote]

So you believe in God and that Jesus Christ is the son of God?

197

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t think you can have it both ways though ZEB. I would certainly agree that there is evidence for a historical Jesus. The same as a historical Socrates. However if one wants to take a historical view than all of the documents from the time should be involved not just those that made the canon as it were. Even if one grants there was a historical Jesus there is still a long row to hoe to get him to be God.
[/quote]

The Bible is a religious document but it is also an historical record. Written by many people who walked with Christ. Those people can be called liars by some but I ask once again, what is there motivation? I’ve noticed that if there is no reason to lie people will usually tell the truth, unless of course they are psychopaths. I’ve given some of the background of those who walked with Christ and witnessed the miracles. These were upstanding men. Some very basic people perhaps too simple to lie. Others very well educated men who had much to lose by telling the truth. They are all witnesses to Jesus Christ and the many miracles that he performed.

God is well aware of man’s short comings. Man is far from perfect. But to attack religion because it is not perfect does what? What good comes from trying to take down an institution which has been the bedrock of our society and does much good…even in its imperfection.[/quote]

I personally see nothing wrong attacking a man’s Religion because I believe if Christ were alive today he would attack Christianity [/quote]

So you believe in God and that Jesus Christ is the son of God?[/quote]

I believe in God I am not sure I believe his name was Jesus. I do know I will not subscribe to Today’s religion .

198

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]groo wrote:
I don’t think you can have it both ways though ZEB. I would certainly agree that there is evidence for a historical Jesus. The same as a historical Socrates. However if one wants to take a historical view than all of the documents from the time should be involved not just those that made the canon as it were. Even if one grants there was a historical Jesus there is still a long row to hoe to get him to be God.
[/quote]

The Bible is a religious document but it is also an historical record. Written by many people who walked with Christ. Those people can be called liars by some but I ask once again, what is there motivation? I’ve noticed that if there is no reason to lie people will usually tell the truth, unless of course they are psychopaths. I’ve given some of the background of those who walked with Christ and witnessed the miracles. These were upstanding men. Some very basic people perhaps too simple to lie. Others very well educated men who had much to lose by telling the truth. They are all witnesses to Jesus Christ and the many miracles that he performed.

God is well aware of man’s short comings. Man is far from perfect. But to attack religion because it is not perfect does what? What good comes from trying to take down an institution which has been the bedrock of our society and does much good…even in its imperfection.[/quote]

I personally see nothing wrong attacking a man’s Religion because I believe if Christ were alive today he would attack Christianity [/quote]

So you believe in God and that Jesus Christ is the son of God?[/quote]

I believe in God I am not sure I believe his name was Jesus. I do know I will not subscribe to Today’s religion .
[/quote]

Subscribing to todays religion is far less important than accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior.

If you have not done that I suggest that you do it before the grim reaper comes knocking. If you do, you’ll thank me in the after life :wink:

199

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Mick28 wrote:
anyone who thinks that God doesn’t exist has never been in a fox hole.[/quote]

So you are saying people who are hell bent on killing other people think God is on their side?
[/quote]

What these pinheads are actually doing is shitting on the many service men and women who put their lives on the line for their freedoms.
[/quote]

Don’t politicians already do that anyway?

Still doesn’t answer my question: whose side is God on?

200

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

If I said Harry Potter was historical fact, would you have to read all the Harry Potters before you can dismiss this claim?[/quote]

Not relevant. If I spent most my time critiquing the Harry Potter History Group, wouldn’t you expect me to be familiar with the Harry Potter books and what the Harry Potter History Group believes?[/quote]

An intelligent person could conclude that Harry Potter is bunk after one chapter.
[/quote]

Genesis can be refuted after one paragraph. So what?