[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:<<< You made it very clear in the Hijack thread that talking to me wasn’t on your list of things to do.[/quote]I did no such thing. I mused over the reason why YOU cared about what I had to say. I’m not unwilling to talk to anybody, including you. If I gave that impression I apologize.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Do you really think the Creator of the Universe cares what religion you are?
[/quote]
If he created it, I would suppose so.[/quote]
Or not.
You could also say, if he wanted us to worship him and only him, he’d make it obvious to all humans. Not a very specific slice of the population.[/quote]It IS obvious to all humans. That’s what my epistemology thread is all about Raj.
[/quote]
But I’m a human and it isn’t obvious to me :-)[/quote]
Romans 1:20 to answer your immediate question.
Beyond that people like you need to actually read the Bible, the entire book, before commenting (repeatedly) on a message board about how there is no God.
How many people do you know that critique a book that they’ve never read?
Well just join T Nation and be treated to all of the spiritual “experts” who have never studied the Christian Bible—But they KNOW…ABSOLUTELY that there is no God.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Do you really think the Creator of the Universe cares what religion you are?
[/quote]
If he created it, I would suppose so.[/quote]
Or not.
You could also say, if he wanted us to worship him and only him, he’d make it obvious to all humans. Not a very specific slice of the population.[/quote]It IS obvious to all humans. That’s what my epistemology thread is all about Raj.
[/quote]
But I’m a human and it isn’t obvious to me :-)[/quote]
Romans 1:20 to answer your immediate question.
Beyond that people like you need to actually read the Bible, the entire book, before commenting (repeatedly) on a message board about how there is no God.
How many people do you know that critique a book that they’ve never read?
Well just join T Nation and be treated to all of the spiritual “experts” who have never studied the Christian Bible—But they KNOW…ABSOLUTELY that there is no God.
[/quote]
I would first need a reason to care what the Bible says. THAT I have looked into.
There’s no extra-biblical evidence for divinity claims the Bible makes.
Using the Bible to prove the Bible is true is called circular reasoning.
[quote]tonypluto wrote:
Zen Buddhism is all about figuring out the truth on your own.
Religion is for people who can’t live without being told what to do.
[/quote]
When I was a kid I believed that too. You got all this testosterone pumping in your blood stream and feeling pretty good about yourself. Yeah…yeah I’ve been there. Then you start to grow up and see and experience things that can’t be explained. And things happen that are totally out of your control. You also begin to realize that you are not the center of the universe.
Yeah…I’ve been there…
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Of course if an all powerful being wrote a book it would follow there would only be one book and be dominant everywhere in the world. There would be no predecessors, or parallels or alternatives in any other language because mere human authors wouldn’t able to compete with it. You wouldn’t need faith to believe it because all evidence would point to it and it would be demonstrably true. It would contain profound morality and wisdom far beyond human contemporary capacity. It should inspire unity with every reader - if god wrote it, we should expect no less.
Unfortunately we have the very opposite of that.[/quote]
Yeah, but should an all-powerful god really be the jealous type? That’s something we would normally consider a character flaw in a human being; but I guess it is perfectly acceptable in a omnipotent deity. I don’t get it.
If I were all powerful I would at least attempt to be emotionally stable with it.
I am not allowed to covet my neighbor’s wife but God can covet my faith?
Shenanigans!
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Religious differences= Devil’s trick. IT’S A TRAP!!!
No good parent would abandon their child just because they didn’t believe in them fully or even MOSTLY. I find it hard to believe any truly benevolent creator would effectively do the same. [/quote]
Have you read the Christian Bible?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Do you really think the Creator of the Universe cares what religion you are?
[/quote]
If he created it, I would suppose so.[/quote]
Or not.
You could also say, if he wanted us to worship him and only him, he’d make it obvious to all humans. Not a very specific slice of the population.[/quote]It IS obvious to all humans. That’s what my epistemology thread is all about Raj.
[/quote]
But I’m a human and it isn’t obvious to me :-)[/quote]
Romans 1:20 to answer your immediate question.
Beyond that people like you need to actually read the Bible, the entire book, before commenting (repeatedly) on a message board about how there is no God.
How many people do you know that critique a book that they’ve never read?
Well just join T Nation and be treated to all of the spiritual “experts” who have never studied the Christian Bible—But they KNOW…ABSOLUTELY that there is no God.
[/quote]
I would first need a reason to care what the Bible says.[/quote]
In other words you have NOT read the book! And if that’s what you desire it’s your life. But just stop running off at the mouth about something you can’t possibly understand BECAUSE you’ve never read the book.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Of course if an all powerful being wrote a book it would follow there would only be one book and be dominant everywhere in the world. There would be no predecessors, or parallels or alternatives in any other language because mere human authors wouldn’t able to compete with it. You wouldn’t need faith to believe it because all evidence would point to it and it would be demonstrably true. It would contain profound morality and wisdom far beyond human contemporary capacity. It should inspire unity with every reader - if god wrote it, we should expect no less.
Unfortunately we have the very opposite of that.[/quote]
Yeah, but should an all-powerful god really be the jealous type? That’s something we would normally consider a character flaw in a human being; but I guess it is perfectly acceptable in a omnipotent deity. I don’t get it.
If I were all powerful I would at least attempt to be emotionally stable with it.[/quote]
This is one reason that I implore people to actually read and study the text BEFORE making a sweeping conlusion that there is no God.
The word “jealousy” is a good example.
Take a look at this Lifty:
[quote]The truth is, however, sometimes jealously can be spoken of in a good sense. The word “jealous” is translated in the Old Testament from the Hebrew word qinâ??ah, and in the New Testament from the Greek word zelos. The root idea behind both words is that of â??warmthâ?? or â??heatâ?? (Forrester, 1996). The Hebrew word for jealousy carries with it the idea of â??redness of the face that accompanies strong emotionâ?? (Feinberg, 1942, p. 429)â??whether right or wrong. Depending upon the usage of the word, it can be used to represent both a good and an evil passion. Three times in 1 Corinthians, Paul used this word in a good sense to encourage his brethren to â??earnestly desire (zeeloúte)â?? spiritual gifts (12:31; 14:1,39). He obviously was not commanding the Corinthians to sin, but to do something that was good and worthwhile. Later, when writing to the church at Corinth, the apostle Paul was even more direct in showing how there was such a thing as “godly jealousy.”
I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not acceptedâ??you may well put up with it (2 Corinthians 11:2-4, emp. added).[/quote]
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Do you really think the Creator of the Universe cares what religion you are?
[/quote]
If he created it, I would suppose so.[/quote]
Or not.
You could also say, if he wanted us to worship him and only him, he’d make it obvious to all humans. Not a very specific slice of the population.[/quote]It IS obvious to all humans. That’s what my epistemology thread is all about Raj.
[/quote]
But I’m a human and it isn’t obvious to me :-)[/quote]
Romans 1:20 to answer your immediate question.
Beyond that people like you need to actually read the Bible, the entire book, before commenting (repeatedly) on a message board about how there is no God.
How many people do you know that critique a book that they’ve never read?
Well just join T Nation and be treated to all of the spiritual “experts” who have never studied the Christian Bible—But they KNOW…ABSOLUTELY that there is no God.
[/quote]
I would first need a reason to care what the Bible says.[/quote]
In other words you have NOT read the book! And if that’s what you desire it’s your life. But just stop running off at the mouth about something you can’t possibly understand BECAUSE you’ve never read the book.
[/quote]
Yes, great cut and paste job, excellent work ignoring the meat of my post.
I am not claiming to be an expert on what the Bible says, I am stating that it is not good evidence for a god. For instance, did you know that the Gospels were written 40-70 years after the alleged crucifixion by 2nd hand accounts?
Tell me, why do you accept the Bible’s claims? What is your justification?
Most modern scholars conclude that the apostle John wrote none of these works[4] although others, notably J.A.T. Robinson, F. F. Bruce, and Leon Morris, hold the apostle to be behind at least some, in particular the gospel. [in reference to the Authorship of the Johannine works]
http://en.wikipedia.org/...l_1985_p._355-3
There are 10 sources cited for this comment.
Are humans beings the only rational beings God created?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Are humans beings the only rational beings God created?[/quote]
Humans are rational?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Of course if an all powerful being wrote a book it would follow there would only be one book and be dominant everywhere in the world.
[/quote]
What would you say is the most widely printed and best selling book of all time?[/quote]
Harry Potter?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Yes, great cut and paste job, excellent work ignoring the meat of my post.[/quote]
There was no “meat” in your post. The most significant line was the one where you admitted NOT reading the very book you attack. That says it all doesn’t it? But since I don’t want to offend you I’ll take this post line by line.
Expert? You’re not even a novice. If you read the entire Bible (all 66 books) once that would make you a novice. But you’ve not even accomplished that. You are not even giving it a tiny bit of effort. Why? Because it’s easier to attack it without knowing what’s in it. Now tell me again what book am I allowed to critique without first having read it, much less studied it? Can you understand why you’re not entitled to much respect on this topic?
Says the man who has never read the Christian Bible. Or most likely explored any “evidence”. I would hazard a guess that you’ve not studied any formal religion, or spiritual matters of any kind, type or nature. But you KNOW… ABSOLUTELY KNOW there is no God. How can anyone take you seriously on this topic? And moreover how come you don’t have the intellectual curiosity to examine such thing? Just easier to avoid it and keep attacking what you don’t know or understand?
And did you know that many of the books in the new testament were written by those who walked with Christ? People like Peter, James (his brother), John and others. No…you wouldn’t know that because you have not read the very thing you are criticizing.
I don’t mean to be so harsh but you are a smart guy and wouldn’t dare attack any other book before actually reading it. Nor would you draw such dramatic conclusions without first having gone on your own search for the truth.
So, give it a read and come back and we can talk.
Fair enough?
[quote]GorillaMon wrote:
Religious differences= Devil’s trick. IT’S A TRAP!!!
No good parent would abandon their child just because they didn’t believe in them fully or even MOSTLY. I find it hard to believe any truly benevolent creator would effectively do the same. [/quote]
A famous quote bears repeating here, GorillaMon:
The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off!
(Especially if you’re heavily invested in defending one particular religion!)
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Are humans beings the only rational beings God created?[/quote]
Humans are rational?[/quote]
Yes, in the philosophical sense.
All action must be rationally thought out - even if incorrect means are directed at confused ends it is beside the point.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:<<< I think God is A LOT bigger than that. [/quote]Here’s the trouble. He doesn’t care what you think. Ya know bein God n all. To be clear, He doesn’t care what I think either. I do however care what He thinks, which is how I know He doesn’t care what we think. HE tells US what to think and we either think it or die. Couldn’t be simpler, though that’s not very groovy so you don’t like that.
[/quote]
Whatever God wants to do is groovy with me Tirib. Why do you say I wouldn’t like it?
Oh wait, you’re not going to tell me that God wants to punish people and banish them to hell are you? Hell is a man-made mental construct that denies that God is Loving, Omnipresent and Omnipotent.
[quote]tonypluto wrote:
Zen Buddhism is all about figuring out the truth on your own.[/quote]
Certainly a worthy path.
[quote]tonypluto wrote:
Religion is for people who can’t live without being told what to do.
[/quote]
Not necessarily. People like structure and focus and religion provides plenty of it. As with anything, you’ll get out of it what you put into it. Some people grow (spiritually) by leaps and bounds. Others get strangled and stagnate.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
There was no “meat” in your post. The most significant line was the one where you admitted NOT reading the very book you attack. That says it all doesn’t it? But since I don’t want to offend you I’ll take this post line by line.
Expert? You’re not even a novice. If you read the entire Bible (all 66 books) once that would make you a novice. But you’ve not even accomplished that. You are not even giving it a tiny bit of effort. Why? Because it’s easier to attack it without knowing what’s in it. Now tell me again what book am I allowed to critique without first having read it, much less studied it? Can you understand why you’re not entitled to much respect on this topic? [/quote]
I already told you, I am uninterested in becoming a bible scholar. My interest is identifying evidence for a god. Before I can consider the Bible as evidence, it must meet certain criteria. It fails on that front.
Again, why does it matter what the Bible says when there is no extra biblical evidence to backup its divinity claims?
There’s no evidence for the existence of Spider-Man outside of Spider-Man comics. Do I have to read every Spider-Man comic ever written before being able to determine Spider-Man doesn’t actually exist?
Secondly, how did you go about determining the claims in other holy books were incorrect? Have you read the Qu’ran and Bhagavad Gita? What justification do you have for dismissing those claims and not the Bibles?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Says the man who has never read the Christian Bible. Or most likely explored any “evidence”. I would hazard a guess that you’ve not studied any formal religion, or spiritual matters of any kind, type or nature. But you KNOW… ABSOLUTELY KNOW there is no God. How can anyone take you seriously on this topic? And moreover how come you don’t have the intellectual curiosity to examine such thing? Just easier to avoid it and keep attacking what you don’t know or understand?[/quote]
I can say with respect to physical world, as in the world relative to us there is no god. Not to an absolute certainty of course. I’ve already explained why I do not need to read the Bible before dismissing it.
Do you understand the concept of circular reasoning?
[quote]ZEB wrote:
And did you know that many of the books in the new testament were written by those who walked with Christ? People like Peter, James (his brother), John and others. No…you wouldn’t know that because you have not read the very thing you are criticizing. [/quote]
Were you talking about the Petrine epistles that were supposedly were authored by Peter? If not, be specific.
Most scholars today conclude that Peter was not the author of the two epistles that are attributed to him and that they were written by two different authors.[1][2][3]
I’ve stated my opinion on Christ before: He probably did exist (or someone like him) that was ahead of his time morally. As stories were passed on, he had mythical aspects added to his life.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
I don’t mean to be so harsh but you are a smart guy and wouldn’t dare attack any other book before actually reading it. Nor would you draw such dramatic conclusions without first having gone on your own search for the truth.
So, give it a read and come back and we can talk.
Fair enough? [/quote]
I disagree. There are 200 odd religions in the world. By that standard I would have to spend a decade of my life devoted to reading religious texts.
I have spent good deal of time looking at arguments for god and apologetics. The conclusion I reached that a god doesn’t exist is not one I came to on a whim.