[quote]pat wrote:
Perhaps the more appropriate question is how did it come to be? or what caused it? The problem your having still is that all these things you describe are still constrained by a common thread, causation. If the entities you speak are uncaused, and exist for no reason and are dependent on nothing, then you have a point. If you cannot, then you don’t.
I wasn’t arguing for ‘God’ there, I was trying to describe ‘it’ to some degree.[/quote]
That’s precisely what I’m saying. No cause. No reason. No dependence.
Because?
[quote]
First that’s not correct, the universe as we know it, is finite. There is a finite amount of energy in the universe otherwise we wouldn’t be able to measure how much there is. The universe’s entropy is increasing. Something it would not be able to do if it were infinite. So the universe is not inifinite. It would not matter if it were, it’s still dependent and that’s the key.
You have to think about the argument itself to understand how the Necessary Being would create. It could not have been compelled which means it had to do it of it’s own ‘will’ so to speak.
And he is not mine, I don’t know what you mean by that at all.[/quote]
Multi verse. This is what I’m talking about and this in infinite (unless you prescribe to the idea of an infinite regression of first causes… but that still pretty much makes it infinite).
The thing about higher dimensions is that, compared to the one directly below it, they are infinitely more complicated in terms of the limitation of said lower dimension. For example, the second dimension is composed of an infinite amount of one dimensional “strings” and the third dimension is composed of an infinite amount of adjacent 2 dimensional branes. Now, consider the point where you’ve reached the dimension above the constraints of time, just as the third dimension is above the constraints of the second dimension by adding depth/width. Because it is above these constraints, it doesn’t require a beginning, however it is composed of an infinite amount of branes that are constrained by time. So there you have dimensions that must behave in a causal manner (as we understand causation) while existing in a space that doesn’t behave in a causal manner as we understand it. In other words, ‘free will’ isn’t a necessary part of the creation process. You have an infinite amount of time and energy, but you also have causation that draws from this infinite pool of time and energy.
I’m talking about the God you, personally, follow.
[quote]pat wrote:
Perhaps the more appropriate question is how did it come to be? or what caused it? The problem your having still is that all these things you describe are still constrained by a common thread, causation. If the entities you speak are uncaused, and exist for no reason and are dependent on nothing, then you have a point. If you cannot, then you don’t.
I wasn’t arguing for ‘God’ there, I was trying to describe ‘it’ to some degree.[/quote]
That’s precisely what I’m saying. No cause. No reason. No dependence.
[/quote]
By definition an Uncaused-cause cannot be caused, or it’s not an Uncaused-cause. There’s nothing more to it than that. A deductive argument functions much like a math equation, what’s on the other side of the equal sign, or the “therefore” works in the inverse to the equation or premises. \
Well a dimension is just a function of what occupies it. For instance, space is defined by the objects that occupy it. No matter, no space. So it’s dependedent.
[quote]
The multi-verse issue is not a problem even in to infinity. It you cannot regress it’s contingencies infinitly because an infinite regress begs the question which makes it impossible. Infinite regress has that problem as well as in the context of an argument you cannot have infinite premises because you will never reach a conclusion so it’s not an argument then.
By definition you cannot have more than one ‘first cause’ much less infinite amounts of them. A first cause, can only be one thing.
And by ‘First Cause’ are your referring to Uncaused-casuer, or the first thing that was caused to be?
All of these things you referred to are contingent objects. Whether they are temporally dependent is not really relevant. Also, they aren’t “higher” dimensions, they are other dimensions, and branes, singularities dimensions, are all dependent things that function as a function of something else. They are just cogs in the causal chain. It does not matter how many of them you have. They are still ultimately dependent. And that’s true even if M-Theory were true which according to Dr. Matt, it has been blown apart by the CERN experiments and many of the dimensions were found not to actually be there.
Still, it’s all dependent, all contingent.
There is nothing magical about it. It’s the Uncaused-cause. There can only be one.
[quote]pat wrote:
By definition an Uncaused-cause cannot be caused, or it’s not an Uncaused-cause. There’s nothing more to it than that. A deductive argument functions much like a math equation, what’s on the other side of the equal sign, or the “therefore” works in the inverse to the equation or premises.
[/quote]
k
Then I suppose vacuums don’t exist…
Why are you arguing against infinite regression? I know you don’t agree with it and I’ve told you I don’t agree with it either. I don’t contend that the multi-verse is an infinite regression of first causes. In a way there is, but I’ll get into it later.
Actually, not being temporally dependent makes it tautologically not dependant on the constraints of time. If you have a dimension above the constraints of time, then you can have an infinite regression of first causes (so to speak) in the same way you can have an infinite amount of 2 dimensional branes in a 3 dimensional universe.
(This is what I was talking about before, it’s just that this is more of an infinite amount of first causes, rather than an infinite regression of first causes.)
[quote]
There is nothing magical about it. It’s the Uncaused-cause. There can only be one.[/quote]
LOL…The gospel according to bigflamer: “Religion is a bunch of bullshit, boys and girls; relax, go forth to live your lives free of the shackles of religious superstition.”
Thus saith Sparky.
You’re welcome Tirib.
[/quote]They’ll do that all by themselves Sparky. This is called sin. Nobody needs either permission or to be taught. It is our nature. Born into bondage, clanking through life covered in chains, all the while snickering over how free we are. Eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear. God be true and every man a liar.
[/quote]
LOL…you gotta know that this is the sort of shit that makes me run the other way from religion.
Westboro’s formal statement of faith is actually fairly sound overall, but their self righteous pharisaical testimony in this society is utterly abhorrent and anti-Christian. They even claim to be Calvinists (hyper Calvinists at that) who have been saved by the totally undeserved free and sovereign predestining grace of God alone. Yet they turn around and act like they are in a position to loudly, obnoxiously and publicly sneer at other sinners who are no more damned than they, by their own theology, claim to have been themselves.
Make no mistake. Homosexuality is an abominable and perverse corruption of the created order of a holy and almighty God. He does hate homosexuals. HOWEVER, any heart wherein dwells the Holy Spirit of the risen Christ KNOWS that it’s OWN sin would be sending them to the same hell under the same damning wrath and hatred of the same God as every homosexual ever born were it not for the redeeming grace of that God himself.
My duty and joy as a Christian man is to love everybody, homosexuals included and show them the same grace that I have been shown. I tell them that they are lost and if they die in their sin they will go the same hell I should be going to myself. I tell them that their homosexuality is universally condemned with a clarity that is impossible to miss in the holy bible which is the written word of the one true and living God. I offer them my hand in friendship and treat them exactly as I do any other sinner. A fellow human being bearing the same image of God that I do and that are hence valuable to me on that basis. In need of the same salvation I am.
I sinned right in God’s face, as His redeemed child who knew better. In the depths of my drunken backslidden corruption years ago, I cursed His name and dared Him to kill me. He brought me back to His side when I TRIED to get away. I will not EVER view someone else’s sin as somehow worse than mine.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Westboro’s formal statement of faith is actually fairly sound overall, but their self righteous pharisaical testimony in this society is utterly abhorrent and anti-Christian. They even claim to be Calvinists (hyper Calvinists at that) who have been saved by the totally undeserved free and sovereign predestining grace of God alone. Yet they turn around and act like they are in a position to loudly, obnoxiously and publicly sneer at other sinners who are no more damned than they, by their own theology, claim to have been themselves.
Make no mistake. Homosexuality is an abominable and perverse corruption of the created order of a holy and almighty God. He does hate homosexuals. HOWEVER, any heart wherein dwells the Holy Spirit of the risen Christ KNOWS that it’s OWN sin would be sending them to the same hell under the same damning wrath and hatred of the same God as every homosexual ever born were it not for the redeeming grace of that God himself.
My duty and joy as a Christian man is to love everybody, homosexuals included and show them the same grace that I have been shown. I tell them that they are lost and if they die in their sin they will go the same hell I should be going to myself. I tell them that their homosexuality is universally condemned with a clarity that is impossible to miss in the holy bible which is the written word of the one true and living God. I offer them my hand in friendship and treat them exactly as I do any other sinner. A fellow human being bearing the same image of God that I do and that are hence valuable to me on that basis. In need of the same salvation I am.
I sinned right in God’s face, as His redeemed child who knew better. In the depths of my drunken backslidden corruption years ago, I cursed His name and dared Him to kill me. He brought me back to His side when I TRIED to get away. I will not EVER view someone else’s sin as somehow worse than mine.[/quote]
Someone had a funny line once. If you have a problem with homosexuals tell all those straight couples to quit having gay babies. If God hates homosexuals why did he create them. And hate does not appear to be an emotion possible by the all loving God. There are many fathers who find out that their son or daughter is a homosexual and go right on loving them. Are they better than God? And do show me where in the bible it says that God himself hates homosexuals and not simply homosexuality.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Westboro’s formal statement of faith is actually fairly sound overall, but their self righteous pharisaical testimony in this society is utterly abhorrent and anti-Christian. They even claim to be Calvinists (hyper Calvinists at that) who have been saved by the totally undeserved free and sovereign predestining grace of God alone. Yet they turn around and act like they are in a position to loudly, obnoxiously and publicly sneer at other sinners who are no more damned than they, by their own theology, claim to have been themselves.
Make no mistake. Homosexuality is an abominable and perverse corruption of the created order of a holy and almighty God. He does hate homosexuals. HOWEVER, any heart wherein dwells the Holy Spirit of the risen Christ KNOWS that it’s OWN sin would be sending them to the same hell under the same damning wrath and hatred of the same God as every homosexual ever born were it not for the redeeming grace of that God himself.
My duty and joy as a Christian man is to love everybody, homosexuals included and show them the same grace that I have been shown. I tell them that they are lost and if they die in their sin they will go the same hell I should be going to myself. I tell them that their homosexuality is universally condemned with a clarity that is impossible to miss in the holy bible which is the written word of the one true and living God. I offer them my hand in friendship and treat them exactly as I do any other sinner. A fellow human being bearing the same image of God that I do and that are hence valuable to me on that basis. In need of the same salvation I am.
I sinned right in God’s face, as His redeemed child who knew better. In the depths of my drunken backslidden corruption years ago, I cursed His name and dared Him to kill me. He brought me back to His side when I TRIED to get away. I will not EVER view someone else’s sin as somehow worse than mine.[/quote]
Someone had a funny line once. If you have a problem with homosexuals tell all those straight couples to quit having gay babies. If God hates homosexuals why did he create them. And hate does not appear to be an emotion possible by the all loving God. There are many fathers who find out that their son or daughter is a homosexual and go right on loving them. Are they better than God? And do show me where in the bible it says that God himself hates homosexuals and not simply homosexuality.
[/quote]
Murderers often have non murders as parents, and God created them too. “God hates” may not be the best or most accurate phrase here, correct me if I am wrong Tiribulus.
GOOD HEAVENS!!! Never heard this before!!! Thanks =] I would go right on loving mine too if that were to be case. I would not however delude myself with false comfort of an imaginary god who is subject to my pathetic notions of love and justice. Love is not always good. Loving what God hates is a sure sign of a heart that remains yet dead in sin. I am not allowed to hate anybody. God would not be God if He didn’t. This pitiful hippified commune leader that is mistaken for the Christian God today is the idolatrous figment of modern man’s feminized imagination.
He HATES all manifestations of wickedness, defined by Him alone, with a holy righteous hatred. Praise to be to His glorious grace, He satisfied that hatred on behalf of all those He would save. Upon the person of His only eternally begotten Son. To whom they were given as the inheritance of His obedience to His Father in dying and rising again in their place. Some of them given by the Father to the Son are homosexuals. He raises them in newness of life and I embrace them fully as my brethren (and sisteren) in Christ. Yes, I know some personally.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
GOOD HEAVENS!!! Never heard this before!!! Thanks =] I would go right on loving mine too if that were to be case. I would not however delude myself with false comfort of an imaginary god who is subject to my pathetic notions of love and justice. Love is not always good. Loving what God hates is a sure sign of a heart that remains yet dead in sin. I am not allowed to hate anybody. God would not be God if He didn’t. This pitiful hippified commune leader that is mistaken for the Christian God today is the idolatrous figment of modern man’s feminized imagination.
He HATES all manifestations of wickedness, defined by Him alone, with a holy righteous hatred. Praise to be to His glorious grace, He satisfied that hatred on behalf of all those He would save. Upon the person of His only eternally begotten Son. To whom they were given as the inheritance of His obedience to His Father in dying and rising again in their place. Some of them given by the Father to the Son are homosexuals. He raises them in newness of life and I embrace them fully as my brethren (and sisteren) in Christ. Yes, I know some personally.[/quote]
Then you acknowledge that God created homosexuals or don’t? Again please show me in the bible God’s hate. Stating that we cannot understand God’s love and justice is a cop out. All we have is our perspective.
Then you acknowledge that God created homosexuals or don’t? Again please show me in the bible God’s hate. Stating that we cannot understand God’s love and justice is a cop out. All we have is our perspective.
[/quote]
I don’t know much of anything about Christianity, but I have been reading about it a bit, and I personally would be more worried about other sins way before I worried about stuff like homosexuality. I came across this article on Idolatry and if it is correct, I can’t think of a single person I know who doesn’t commit this sin multiple times on a daily basis.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:He does hate homosexuals.[/quote]Damn…sounds just like WBC. [/quote]Don’t make me pull out your Friar from Our Lady of Guadalupe again Chris who quite rightly stated in plain language that the notion of God hating, but loving sinners is a modernist invention. I gave him credit and still do. [quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote: I can’t think of a single person I know who doesn’t commit this sin multiple times on a daily basis. >>>[/quote]We have a winner boys and girls. ALL that is not born from explicit faith in the one true God is sin no matter how right it may in itself appear to us. Giving to the poor out of any motivation other than self conscious love for and the glory of the Lord of the universe is sin. All that is not of faith IS sin. This is your cue to turn that passage upside down now too Chris =] I say it’s a sort of moral syllogism with the part I quoted above as the major premise. The exact inverse of what you are going to say.
The only true religion in the original meaning of the word is pure entheogenic drug use.
Religion literally means “to bring back into connection with”, and is fundamentally the same term as “Yoga”. That being said, NONE of the modern “isms” is actually practicing “religion” these days.
Fairytale books of the past and absurd, outdated systems of behavior are not religion, they’re cults.
All the modern “isms” stem from the original systems of spirituality which we refer to these days as indigenous shamanism. The original goal of every one of these “isms” was to allow small groups of initiates a chance to connect themselves directly to the wheelwork of nature and personally experience the hidden aspects of consciousness only available through drug use, ritualism, tantric dance, etc.
I’d wager that just about no one on this board has ever experienced any true religious practice. Raising this question here is like asking the blind to explain a sunrise.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
GOOD HEAVENS!!! Never heard this before!!! Thanks =] I would go right on loving mine too if that were to be case. I would not however delude myself with false comfort of an imaginary god who is subject to my pathetic notions of love and justice. Love is not always good. Loving what God hates is a sure sign of a heart that remains yet dead in sin. I am not allowed to hate anybody. God would not be God if He didn’t. This pitiful hippified commune leader that is mistaken for the Christian God today is the idolatrous figment of modern man’s feminized imagination.
He HATES all manifestations of wickedness, defined by Him alone, with a holy righteous hatred. Praise to be to His glorious grace, He satisfied that hatred on behalf of all those He would save. Upon the person of His only eternally begotten Son. To whom they were given as the inheritance of His obedience to His Father in dying and rising again in their place. Some of them given by the Father to the Son are homosexuals. He raises them in newness of life and I embrace them fully as my brethren (and sisteren) in Christ. Yes, I know some personally.[/quote]
Then you acknowledge that God created homosexuals or don’t? Again please show me in the bible God’s hate. Stating that we cannot understand God’s love and justice is a cop out. All we have is our perspective.
[/quote]No. That’s not all we have. We have God’s perspective available to us by faith. In fact even our own perspective is only available to us by faith.
Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”
Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”
Lev. 20:23, “Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.”
Prov. 6:16-19, “There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.”
Hosea 9:15, “All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.”
You’re way behind man. As with everybody else I shamelessly recommend my epistemology thread for answers to the defining questions here. Chris’s metaphysics thread is helpful too, but not as much a mine =]
EDIT:OOPS. God rendered the existence of homosexuality certain without being in any way responsible for sin by means of divine coput… errr I mean mechanisms known only Himself. Our finitude precludes us by definition of ever being equipped to comprehend the secret things which belong to the Lord alone. (Deuteronomy 29:29)
