An open chain the distal end is not fixed, during a closed chain the distal end is fixed
As such
Open = bench press, leg press, curls, lat pulldown
Closed = dips, press ups, squats
Deadlifts are a difficult one as for the hip extensors (and lowerbody) it is closed �?? for the upperbody it could be considered open
During running the leg doing the drive and hip extension is closed the hip flexion leg driving up is open
You have to look at the movement as levers are different in different movements and create a different lever type for the same joint (i.e type one, type two or type three lever)
During a closed chain movement the load is proximal (i.e close to the body) where as during an open chain it is usually distally loading. This will create different loading patterns and possibly different recruitment patterns
It is also been suggested by some (paul wright a aussie physio and former Mr Australia) that there is adifference in contractions if the contraction is towards the origin or insertion) of the muscle (which end the force is pulling on)
[quote]dankid wrote:
KK heres the definition out of manual of structural kinesiology by Floyd.
Open Kinetic Chain= distal end of the extremity is not fixed to any surface.
Closed kinetic chain= distal end is fixed.
In open chain exercises, the different joints can move independantly of eachother with little effect on eachother. EX: When doing a bench press, you can move your shoulder at any angle without changin the angle of your elbow. Which would be more like a fly.
Closed chain exercises, the chain is closed, and the joints move more together. EX: In a pushup, you can not change the angle of your shoulder without changing the angle of your elbow.
According to the text, most sports involve primarily closed chain for the lower body, and open chain for the upper body, and closed chain is usually safer and more functional.
As for a summary,
Closed chain lower body = feet are on the ground
Closed chain upper body= hands are on the ground, dip bars, or pullup bar.[/quote]
That last point is interesting… so a full extension side delt raise and a power side delt raise… activates the head differently? I just suspect that it may have more torque in the fully extended version…
A wide bench and close bench… more chest or more triceps we all agree, but what about Outer chest and Inner chest? That is up for debate i reckon!
I think that the reason an exercise is more distal with OKC, is due to the fact that smaller weights are used (in comparison to the 80-90kgs of the body) and the differing lever lengths available by bending the arm or leg allow for a modulated “intensity”.
With CKC… we are lifting the body, or the body is moving through space, so some part of the body is having to lift that weight - no problem for the massive gluteals, hamstrings or quads, but tough on the biceps, triceps and lats etc. So imagine doing a Straight-Arm chin up - like a straight arm pulldown!
Not happening, thats why most CKC exercises are more proximal than the OKC movements.
“If you want to use a machine, the leg press is a better option; it is a closed chain activity and you can usually modify your position to further decrease the stress to your knees.”
From Universtity of Washington study:
“Squats and leg presses have something in common…they are both closed
kinetic chain exercises and they both use many of the same muscles.”
So I guess you guys are correct and the experts are wrong then?
Guys, in the Leg Press, feet are PLANTED and DO NOT have the freedom to move about while the exercise is perfromed.
The feet are stationary in relation to each other and the platform while the knees extend and flex… Closed Chain.
A DB bench was what I was impying which would be open for sure. As for barbell bench, it is technically open chained, and you can actually move the wrist freely, and the elbow or shoulder. Elbow would be a skull crusher, and shoulder would be a pullover.
A sweet closed chain exercise for triceps is BW tricep extensions, these are brutal, try em.
i guess i will have to get rid of all those metal chains i bought from the store to do open and closed chain exercises… i knew i should of read up on it before i bought those chains…
[quote]ds77 wrote:
i guess i will have to get rid of all those metal chains i bought from the store to do open and closed chain exercises… i knew i should of read up on it before i bought those chains…[/quote]
[quote]Joe Brook wrote:
What about Bench press? The hands are stationary in relation to one another… but that is still considered open…
This is too confusing for them to keep changing the RULES!!!
BISCUIT!! THEY ARE CHANGING THE RULES!! GET EM!!
Joe[/quote]
The rules don’t change, we just keep getting new contexts in which to interpret them.
Bench press is OPEN because the hands are free to move in every plane with the only exception being the distance from each other.
Not that you’d be so dumb to do this but you COULD move the bar around in circles, to the left, right, front, back, twist the bar like the hands of a clock until your arms were twisted etc.
You can’t do that in a normal pushup making the pushup a closed chain.
According to Mel Siff the original definition of a closed chain exercise is any one where the terminal joint meets with some considerable external resistance, NOT that the distal extremity of the limb cannot move at all. So technically any exercise with very heavy resistance would qualify as closed chain, such as very heavy leg extensions.
Siff also uses the leg press as an example. Is is open chain because your legs move the weight? Is it closed chain because your feet are fixed against the foot plate? Is a leg press where the weight moves open chain and a leg press where the seat slides back closed chain? Who really cares?
The only reason open-chain / closed-chain is even brought up is that people like to categorize things to make them simpler. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be that neat and tidy and it isn’t all that useful anyways. I would file these right next to functional training and core training and forget about them.
The only reason open-chain / closed-chain is even brought up is that people like to categorize things to make them simpler. Unfortunately it doesn’t seem to be that neat and tidy and it isn’t all that useful anyways. I would file these right next to functional training and core training and forget about them.
[/quote]
I love it! (slaps BigBen72 on the back (firmly but gently))
For what its worth, Dr. Arthur Steindler (Kinesiology of the Human Body)states "in open chain movements, the proximal muscle attachment or body part is fixed, while the distal member moves (kicking a ball). In a closed chain joint motion, the distal muscle attachment or body part is fixed or stable, and the proximal part moves(pull-ups)
I think we should all be clear on the definitions by now. And barbell curls are not closed chain if you use enough weight. It has to be an immovable object.
And leg press would be OPEN chain. Think about it, its the same thing as a shoulder press, but your pushing with your legs.
[i]The concept of closed chain exercise and the definition that Dr. Siff gave is a paraphrase of the definition from Arthur Steindler, MD who it appears to have coined the term in his book Kinesiology of the Human Body Under Normal and Pathological Conditions. Springfield: IL, 1955.
Dr. Steindler wrote:
"We designate an open kinetic chain a combination in which the terminal joint is free. The waving of the hand is an open kinetic chain in which the action of the shoulder joint, the elbow joint, and the wrist joint are successively involved.
A closed kinetic chain, on the other hand, is one in which the terminal joint meets with some considerable external resistance which prohibits or restrains it free motion. Eventually, the external resistance may be overcome and the peripheral portion of the joint may move against this resistance, for instance, in pushing a cart or lifting a load; or the external resistance is absolute, in which case the proximal part moves against the peripheral, as for instance, in chinning oneself on a horizontal bar; or the limitations of the muscular effort may assert itself both peripherally and proximally and may be unsurmountable, in which case no visible motion is produced. Only in the latter instance is the kinetic chain strictly and absolutely closed.
However in common use we apply the term to all situations in which the peripheral joint of the chain meets with overwhelming external resistance."
One will note that Dr. Steindler presents some of the same problems inherent in his own definition that Dr. Siff noted in his posting. Dr.Steindler allows that eventually moving a great external force still would be classified as a closed chain exercise.[/i]
[quote]dankid wrote:
I think we should all be clear on the definitions by now. And barbell curls are not closed chain if you use enough weight. It has to be an immovable object.
And leg press would be OPEN chain. Think about it, its the same thing as a shoulder press, but your pushing with your legs.[/quote]
Every source I’ve checked says differently.
I didn’t know that you could move your feet around from where you placed them while you leg press. You’d have to grease up the platform pretty good for that.
A barbell press allows you to move your hands in every direction but apart or closer to each other. The barbell is a moving, unstable object.
The leg press platform fixes your feet in place while your ankles and knees (and hips) flex and extend.
With your argument, if you were strong enough to push the Earth away from you when you squat, that’d be an open chain exercise too?
You’d have to compare the leg press to a machine press like the Smith. Which makes it even more convoluted.
I still think it’s a stupid way of catagorizing things. As clearly demonstrated by this on-going thread. No offense top any of you (us) responding here.
The leg press is kinda confusing though, because its similar to balancing a bar on your feet and pushing it which would be like a shoulder press.
The definitions I have seen dont make it clear whether leg press would be open or closed, because the proximal end is fixed while the distal end moves.
I’d still say its an open chain movement, that is restriced to one plain of motion. It would be like doing a bicep curl on a machine. Your not able to move the joints independantly, but also the action does not move your body through space.
AHHHHRRRGGG FUCK IT…LIFT HEAVY STUFF, EAT, GROW. lol jk
sometimes I feel like screaming and not trying to learn all of these technical terms for just simple weight lifting. oh well…now let me read all of this again. lol