What I DONT Like About 300

[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
mharmar wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
No, not in this country. The classics are pushed aside for Anna Nicole Smith deaths and OJ trials, and the only education people get is through movies. Books and literature are not America’s strong point.

Get used to it.

Don’t get used to it, if you don’t like it, try to change it. Buy a dozen copies of Gates of Fire and give it to the next guy who says that 300 was cool.

mike

Gates of Fire is not one of the classics, it would be better to hand out Herodotus.

Herodotus was good merely for being the father of modern history. He plays an important role, but he had a very bad habit of extreme exaggeration. He really wouldn’t give you a terribly historically accurate account. At this point, no one really can.

That said, why can’t GoF be considered a classic? This is elitist bullshit really. You just wanted to puff your chest out and tell us how smart and better you are because you know/have read Herodotus. You are probably the first guy to chime in, “Yeah, but the book was better.” every time someone talks about a good movie. Pressfield’s take on the battle was an absolute classic in military fiction.

mike[/quote]

Pressfield was alright but I seriously don’t get why people want to blow the guy. Yeah it’s a classic of our time(debateable) but I figured people meant the true classics. I am sure Pressfield would tell everyone to read Herodotus too.

[quote]Blacksnake wrote:
This is new to me…PM me some links to evidence to support this claim please…
[/quote]

I know you asked me to pm you the links and info, but Im going to write everything here so everyone can read… Im sick of this misinformation… even years after the Aryan Invasion Theory was disproved (by its very inventors) its still talked about today!.. cheers!

In the early 20th century, when the colonial archeologists interest was beggining to peak about Indian history and culture, and the Indus-Saraswati ruins were being un-earthed, the utter myth known as the ‘Aryan invasion theory’ came into being. It was created as such - when European scholars were studying the Vedas, at a time when the bigoted view of genetic or religious superiority of the white race over all others was still gospel, scholars, not particularly well versed in the culture or language of India, mis-interpreted the word ‘Aryas’ which literally means “noble” or “educated” as an entire ethnic group, rather than a description of a class within society, which is what it meant.

From this mistake, a picture which suited the idea of European superiority began to emerge, where a fair-skinned (perhaps blue eyed and blonde haired? lol) race of people had decended from the plains of central asia, and civilised the native barbarian hunter-gathering people by conquering them, bringing the ‘European’ language of Sanskrit into India, and writing the Vedas. To their credit, it was the very inventors of this theory whom eventually disproved it, however, the bandwagon of bad idea had begun to roll, and those who clang to it began to try to adapt it in the wake of the discovery that there was an ancient civilisation pre-dating the supposed invasion by millennia. The theory now became rather more embarrassing - an ancient civiliation had existed, and was destroyed by white barbarians. All this from a bad European translation of an archaic Sanskrit word for noble.

Almost every scholar over the past 25 years now formally accepts as given fact that the Aryan invasion theory was utter myth, and that the translation of Aryas had been one of the worst mistakes in archeological history, yet some people still cling to this idea when the reality - as given by the Vedas - is that the people of India, are simply the people of India, and race, a mis-informed 19th century concept, does not exist. Furthermore, this undermines something that all desis should be proud of - India is the oldest, and only surviving unbroken civilisation dating back to the dawn of human society that exists in the world today.

Conservative estimates (some believe that India is far older than the others, and they are porbably right) say that Mesepotamia, Egypt and India are the three oldest civilisations on the planet and arose around the late fourth millenium BC, followed by China around the second millenium BC, but wheras only ruins exist of the others, the same civilisation that pioneered philosophy and science for the human race at least 6000 years ago still exists in India today, where the Amrit tanks of the Indus-Saraswati civilisation still carry the same importance in Mandirs and Gurdwaras today, and hyms composed back then are still sung.

This civilisation wasnt founded through racial war or any such crap, there is no such thing as a Dravidian or an Aryan, everyone is Indian, with skin colour and features variying simply due to geography, as with everywhere on the planet. Dravidian only stands for a family of Indian languages, and Aryas are only Sanskriti nobles.

In closing, it is important to examine the social and political implications of the Aryan invasion idea:

First, it served to divide India into a northern Aryan and southern Dravidian culture which were made hostile to each other. This kept the Hindus divided and is still a source of social tension.

Second, it gave the British an excuse in their conquest of India. They could claim to be doing only what the Aryan ancestors of the Hindus had previously done millennia ago.

Third, it served to make Vedic culture later than and possibly derived from Middle Eastern cultures. With the proximity and relationship of the latter with the Bible and Christianity, this kept the Hindu religion as a sidelight to the development of religion and civilization to the West.

Fourth, it allowed the sciences of India to be given a Greek basis, as any Vedic basis was largely disqualified by the primitive nature of the Vedic culture.
This discredited not only the ‘Vedas’ but the genealogies of the ‘Puranas’ and their long list of the kings before the Buddha or Krishna were left without any historical basis.

The ‘Mahabharata’, instead of a civil war in which all the main kings of India participated as it is described, became a local skirmish among petty princes that was later exaggerated by poets. In short, it discredited the most of the Hindu tradition and almost all its ancient literature. It turned its scriptures and sages into fantacies and exaggerations.

This served a social, political and economical purpose of domination, proving the superiority of Western culture and religion. It made the Hindus feel that their culture was not the great thing that their sages and ancestors had said it was.

It made Hindus feel ashamed of their culture that its basis was neither historical nor scientific. It made them feel that the main line of civilization was developed first in the Middle East and then in Europe and that the culture of India was peripheral and secondary to the real development of world culture.

Such a view is not good scholarship or archeology but merely cultural imperialism. The Western Vedic scholars did in the intellectual spehere what the British army did in the political realm discredit, divide and conquer the Hindus.

In short, the compelling reasons for the Aryan invasion theory were neither literary nor archeological but political and religious that is to say, not scholarship but prejudice. Such prejudice may not have been intentional but deep-seated political and religious views easily cloud and blur our thinking.

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/aryan-invasion.html

http://www.umassd.edu/indic/press/origin_pr.cfm

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/aryan/aryan_frawley.html

Fucking Hitler and his Nordic Master Race bullshit, he even took our ancient Hindu Swastika and made into some white supremacy symbol and now it has been banned. Indians are very very very angry about it, its an ancient Hindu symbol that is around 8000 years old. Its like someone taking the symbol of the cross and demonizing it, resulting in all Christians bieng told that it is illegal to display the sign of the cross in any shape or form.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
What I really didn’t like was:

  1. No final stand. In the end, Leonidas ordered his men out into the open so they could inflict as much damage as possible. In the movie, they just kind of gave up.

  2. The Persian executioner was dumb.

  3. No midnight attack on Xerxes tent. When I read that part in the book (it was in “The 300 Spartans” movie also), I thought that it would be a really cool part of the movie.

  4. Only a brief glimpse of phalanx warfare. What they showed was great, then it turned into Conan warfare. I was hoping for more of an organized fight on the part of the Spartans to demonstrate their training.

  5. Leonidas seemed to have a slight speech impediment when he yelled.

  6. Xerxes voice.

  7. The oracle girl scene was odd. Didn’t add anything to the movie, and she wasn’t hot. One or the other, please.

I had to keep in mind that this was based on a comic book and was being told from the point of view of a soldier, not an historian. Suspension of disbelief. [/quote]

You are one extremely picky mutherfucker. [quote]5. Leonidas seemed to have a slight speech impediment when he yelled. [/quote]

The man who played that character did a great job as far as acting. How much would it have sucked if they chose a guy with “perfect shouting eloquence and annunciation” but who sucked as far as the look and overall portrayal? I mean, who cares? You claim you wanted realism but then also claim he didn’t speak well enough when he shouted? Because you think the real Leonidas was the perfect public speaker when shouting at full volume? I’m confused.

As far as Xerxes’ voice, it was completely unexpected for someone who came across that…ambiguous…to have a voice that deep. I personally was expecting something more like Mike Tyson before he opened his mouth. I am GLAD they chose a guy like that because the entire image fit someone who thought they were a God walking on Earth among men.

I could tell people who were expecting a word for word history lesson were going to be disappointed before the movie ever came out. I seriously doubt a documentary from the History Channel would be pulling in the kind of money this movie will make in the first week.

In other words…don’t ever make a movie yourself.

[quote]nik19 wrote:
some white supremacy symbol and now it has been banned. Indians are very very very angry about it, its an ancient Hindu symbol that is around 8000 years old. Its like someone taking the symbol of the cross and demonizing it, resulting in all Christians bieng told that it is illegal to display the sign of the cross in any shape or form.[/quote]

Thanks, nik19. Posts like this remind me from time to time why I still frequent this forum.

mike

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PGJ wrote:
What I really didn’t like was:

  1. No final stand. In the end, Leonidas ordered his men out into the open so they could inflict as much damage as possible. In the movie, they just kind of gave up.

  2. The Persian executioner was dumb.

  3. No midnight attack on Xerxes tent. When I read that part in the book (it was in “The 300 Spartans” movie also), I thought that it would be a really cool part of the movie.

  4. Only a brief glimpse of phalanx warfare. What they showed was great, then it turned into Conan warfare. I was hoping for more of an organized fight on the part of the Spartans to demonstrate their training.

  5. Leonidas seemed to have a slight speech impediment when he yelled.

  6. Xerxes voice.

  7. The oracle girl scene was odd. Didn’t add anything to the movie, and she wasn’t hot. One or the other, please.

I had to keep in mind that this was based on a comic book and was being told from the point of view of a soldier, not an historian. Suspension of disbelief.

You are one extremely picky mutherfucker. 5. Leonidas seemed to have a slight speech impediment when he yelled.

The man who played that character did a great job as far as acting. How much would it have sucked if they chose a guy with “perfect shouting eloquence and annunciation” but who sucked as far as the look and overall portrayal? I mean, who cares? You claim you wanted realism but then also claim he didn’t speak well enough when he shouted? Because you think the real Leonidas was the perfect public speaker when shouting at full volume? I’m confused.

As far as Xerxes’ voice, it was completely unexpected for someone who came across that…ambiguous…to have a voice that deep. I personally was expecting something more like Mike Tyson before he opened his mouth. I am GLAD they chose a guy like that because the entire image fit someone who thought they were a God walking on Earth among men.

I could tell people who were expecting a word for word history lesson were going to be disappointed before the movie ever came out. I seriously doubt a documentary from the History Channel would be pulling in the kind of money this movie will make in the first week.

In other words…don’t ever make a movie yourself.[/quote]

Check the title of the thread, Prof. Some of the things I said above are scenes that people actually laughed at.

I loved the movie. Like ALL movies, there were things that were strange/out of place/goofy. I knew it wasn’t going to be history. In my opinion, it got a little carried away with the “fantasy” stuff at times. My biggest complaint is the lack of a final fight.

Why is ANYONE concerned over someone elses opinion of a movie? It was great, can’t wait to get it on DVD. But you have to admit the executioner was stupid.

[quote]CC wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Did I? Please elaborate.

http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1453096&pageNo=3#1474899

My original post:

CC wrote:
Why is everyone freaking out around here lately about the accuracy of a MOVIE based on a COMIC BOOK.

The “I just can’t believe they’re not doing this story justice” and “this is probably going to be cheesy” comments are getting ridiculous.

Between myself and several others, I’ve seen a lot of people express interest in learning more about the Spartans and Thermopylae than there ever was around here before this movie was set to come out.

In other words, this movie has inspired a lot of people to learn more about the true story. If it weren’t for this movie, most people wouldn’t even give a shit about Spartan history right now. Is that not enough?

Chill the fuck out about the accuracy, people…

And your response:

PGJ wrote:
The true story is insane enough, without adding trolls and ogres and blatantly distorting reality. If you are going to do a movie about Spartans, at least you could make them dress and fight like Spartans. Why add elephants, when there weren’t any? It’s like they took a great historical event, created a great idea for a movie, then gave it to a bunch of 5th graders to fill in the details.

Don’t get me wrong, it looks like a great fantasy movie and I can’t wait for it to come out. However, it is going to grossly misrepresent Spartan culture and the actual battle itself.

Look at “Saving Private Ryan”, “Killer Angles”, and “Flags of our Fathers” all great movies based on actual events that didn’t have to exagerate or misrepresent the truth. The actual events of those battles were insane enough.

Read “Gates of Fire” and you will realize how goofy this movie has the potential to become.

[/quote]

I didn’t contradict myself. Yes, it was a great movie. Yes, the director took liberties with actual events that, in my opinion, added nothing to the movie (elephants, rhinos, trolls, Xerxes voice…), and yes it has inspired MANY people to learn more about the topic.

[quote]PGJ wrote:

Why is ANYONE concerned over someone elses opinion of a movie?

[/quote]

Because this is a discussion forum, not a “post your random thoughts where no one will comment on them Forum”.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Why is ANYONE concerned over someone elses opinion of a movie?

Because this is a discussion forum, not a “post your random thoughts where no one will comment on them Forum”.[/quote]

Alright, I’ll give you that. Do you not have any complaints about the movie? Surely it didn’t completely meet your expectations. Every movie has those moments where you think “OK, that was dumb.”

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Professor X wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Why is ANYONE concerned over someone elses opinion of a movie?

Because this is a discussion forum, not a “post your random thoughts where no one will comment on them Forum”.

Alright, I’ll give you that. Do you not have any complaints about the movie? Surely it didn’t completely meet your expectations. Every movie has those moments where you think “OK, that was dumb.”

[/quote]

You can probably tell from my other posts that I am not that damning of movies unless the shit just completely sucks like “Hitchhikers guide the galaxy”. On a scale of 1-10 with Ghost Rider being somewhere around a 2 as far being watchable, this movie rates a 9 if not a full 10. I personally can’t think of much that would have made the movie experience better than it was. The audience even cheered when the queen stabbed the “senator” (or whatever political rank he truly was). If you can get a response like that out of a crowd near the end of a movie, I think you have succeeded. It was based on a graphic novel. I was actually expecting MORE extreme graphics and was surprised they seemed to tone it down a little. Sin City looked like a comic book. This actually had a little more “realism” in it.

The Queen (even in spite of her sexual decision) had to be the most amazing wife any man could ever have. Movies like this I rarely nit pick unless they truly fucked something up. They clearly made a physical difference between the Spartans and every other military group that came to their aid which just added to the detail they went for in creating the characters.

The only thing that stood out was how his son couldn’t act. That kid couldn’t even build up a fake tear or even a “sad face” after his father died. I’m not sure if that was deliberate (because they were supposed to be warriors) or if the kid’s blank expression was pretty much all he could come up with on the spot.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
I didn’t contradict myself. Yes, it was a great movie. Yes, the director took liberties with actual events that, in my opinion, added nothing to the movie (elephants, rhinos, trolls, Xerxes voice…), and yes it has inspired MANY people to learn more about the topic. [/quote]

Wow…how can you honestly read what I re-posted above from last week and then this:

[quote]PGJ wrote:
The ironic thing is, how many here, before a couple of months ago, had actually heard of Thermopylae? Not me, now I’m hooked. My knowledge of Sparta has increased 100X’s. I actually researched on my own and gave a 30 minute class to my Marines on this battle, Spartan warfare, the phalanx, and Persian armor. I didn’t know shit about this stuff and had no interest until I heard about this movie.

So the movie was historically inaccurate, however it has been a gigantitic springboard for, I’ll guess tens of thousands, who will actually go out a reseaech this topic on their own.

That’s the mark of greatness.
[/quote]

and not see how you’ve changed your tune and simply regurgitated what I said? First it was “blatantly distorting reality” and given “to a bunch of 5th graders to fill in the details”; now it’s just taking “liberties with actual events”.

I could careless about “contradiction”; arguing semantics is ridiculous. Anyone with a basic reading comprehension could see how you completely flip-flopped on the matter.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
But you have to admit the executioner was stupid.[/quote]

I’ll give you that. The executioner was ridiculous. That was the only point in the movie that I actually cringed a little.

[quote]CC wrote:
PGJ wrote:
I didn’t contradict myself. Yes, it was a great movie. Yes, the director took liberties with actual events that, in my opinion, added nothing to the movie (elephants, rhinos, trolls, Xerxes voice…), and yes it has inspired MANY people to learn more about the topic.

Wow…how can you honestly read what I re-posted above from last week and then this:
PGJ wrote:
The ironic thing is, how many here, before a couple of months ago, had actually heard of Thermopylae? Not me, now I’m hooked. My knowledge of Sparta has increased 100X’s. I actually researched on my own and gave a 30 minute class to my Marines on this battle, Spartan warfare, the phalanx, and Persian armor. I didn’t know shit about this stuff and had no interest until I heard about this movie.

So the movie was historically inaccurate, however it has been a gigantitic springboard for, I’ll guess tens of thousands, who will actually go out a reseaech this topic on their own.

That’s the mark of greatness.

and not see how you’ve changed your tune and simply regurgitated what I said? First it was “blatantly distorting reality” and given “to a bunch of 5th graders to fill in the details”; now it’s just taking “liberties with actual events”.

I could careless about “contradiction”; arguing semantics is ridiculous. Anyone with a basic reading comprehension could see how you completely flip-flopped on the matter.

[/quote]

I saw the movie. Although I thought there was some goofyness, overall it was very good, better than what I expected. The comercials pushed the trolls and rhinos pretty hard. If you read carefully, I made two points. One was that I was concerned about producers embellishing an already outrageous historical event with dumb fantasy elements, my second was that despite the non-historical stuff, it has prompted many, including myself, to do research on their own. What’s the problem? I’m not running for political office so you can stop the nit-picking.

[quote]IRoNStaLLion wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
carter12 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I understand what you mean.

But there is no excuse for being uneducated, especially in the age of the internet. It is pure lazyness.

There is definitely no excuse for being uneducated. But who defines what areas of knowledge makes one educated? I know plenty of guys who didn’t finish high school but still know a hell of a lot about some things.

I agree, I have more buddies that never went to college who watch the history channel alot that are far brighter than half of the dimwits I saw in college.

I’m just saying I wish people who seek it out more, instead of having the movie version of history all the time.

And by educated, in this case I mean “knowing history”, I think, because history is the one of most important and underrated of all the subjects.

lol no offense but this is a dumb post… so apparantly if people are ignorant of history that make3s them “uneducated”? so people who learn history are all of a sudden smart?

there’s different realms of knowledge dude… heck do you know anything about organic chemistry?[/quote]

History is one of the most important subjects in the world. If you know where the world has been, then you know where the world is going, and you can see human patterns that go through politics and world events.

I’m not saying that other subjects aren’t important, I’m just saying that most people ignore history, and very few people read anything.

If you are a voting citizen, you have a responsibility to not be a dolt, and yea, that means knowing history and politics. There is no excuse for being ignorant.

You want to work on cars? Fine. But turn the fuckin TV off once in a while and read. There’s a reason they’re called “Classics”, and it ain’t because they have no bearing on the world.

fyi, apparently some didn’t read closely. I do like the movie, it’s basically every badass thing possible condensed into 90minutes. Like one review said, “The director must have a dick made out of 3 machine guns”.

anyway yes my ink design does have “molon labe” in it… actually it has “Live to fight; Fight to Live” on the top and “Molon Labe” on the bottom of a Spartan shield. among some other stuff.

Great movie!
The fight scenes were incredible and I give it a 10 just for that. I admit that some aspects such as the Troll and the executioner seemed odd but were still cool to watch. Regarding historical accuracy, is it not logical to think that the original story was embellished somewhat? People can’t even agree on how a crime has transpired even when there are 10 witnesses and it happened 30 seconds ago. I imagine stories that are thousands of years old are full of more shit than a baby’s diaper.

I really didn’t have any complaints about the presentation of Xerxes. From the trailer I thought he was definitely going to be puny and androgynous…and then he was 7 feet tall and had the voice of Satan (which no one in the theater was prepared for) and put his hands on Leonidas without immediate consequences (and you better believe that gave everyone the willies). He was everything you would expect out of a Frank Miller rendition of an all-powerful god-king. Again, I think i’m going to dress up as him for next Halloween.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Mikeyali wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
No, not in this country. The classics are pushed aside for Anna Nicole Smith deaths and OJ trials, and the only education people get is through movies. Books and literature are not America’s strong point.

Get used to it.

Don’t get used to it, if you don’t like it, try to change it. Buy a dozen copies of Gates of Fire and give it to the next guy who says that 300 was cool.

mike

The ironic thing is, how many here, before a couple of months ago, had actually heard of Thermopylae? Not me, now I’m hooked. My knowledge of Sparta has increased 100X’s. I actually researched on my own and gave a 30 minute class to my Marines on this battle, Spartan warfare, the phalanx, and Persian armor. I didn’t know shit about this stuff and had no interest until I heard about this movie.

So the movie was historically inaccurate, however it has been a gigantitic springboard for, I’ll guess tens of thousands, who will actually go out a reseaech this topic on their own.

That’s the mark of greatness.

[/quote]

Yeah, I remember hearing “Gates of Fire” was on the Marine Corps reading list. Now I realize why. Kinda made me want to reenlist…

Former DD

[quote]DON D1ESEL wrote:
I really didn’t have any complaints about the presentation of Xerxes. From the trailer I thought he was definitely going to be puny and androgynous…and then he was 7 feet tall and had the voice of Satan (which no one in the theater was prepared for) and put his hands on Leonidas without immediate consequences (and you better believe that gave everyone the willies). He was everything you would expect out of a Frank Miller rendition of an all-powerful god-king. Again, I think i’m going to dress up as him for next Halloween.[/quote]

Agreed. Whatever giant ex-drag queen they got to play him fit that part like no one else could.

[quote]nik19 wrote:
I know you asked me to pm you the links and info, but Im going to write everything here so everyone can read… Im sick of this misinformation… even years after the Aryan Invasion Theory was disproved (by its very inventors) its still talked about today!.. cheers![/quote]

The Aryan Invasion model provided an easy explanation for the similarities between Sanskrit and the European languages.

How does the other model explain those similarities?

(not criticizing, just asking)

[quote]PGJ wrote:
What I really didn’t like was:

  1. No final stand. In the end, Leonidas ordered his men out into the open so they could inflict as much damage as possible. In the movie, they just kind of gave up.[/quote]

The movie follows the graphic novel pretty close. The end was exactly like in the novel. I guess they tried to suggest that Leonidas planned to kill Xerxes but failed.[/quote]

That was one of the very few things not in the novel, it was a character borrowed from another movie by the same director, slightly modified.

Um… have you tried to pronounce clearly when yelling at the top of your lungs? :wink:

They were following Frank Miller’s text to the letter.

I guess that was the point - to make that character creepy. It’s a Light vs Darkness story and Xerxes actually is the emperor of Darkness (metaphor).