What Happens to Carbs when Glycogen Stores are Full?

Training
22

In the grand scheme of thing I think you might be overanalysing things. When you are in a state of caloric deficit you aren’t likely to store body fat whether you eat primarily carbs or fat as your energy source. And if you are in a caloric surplus you will store more fat, ESPECIALLY if glycogen stores are full, regardless of if your primary energy source are carbs and fat.

Arguing minute details will be of zero use to you and will create more confusion than anything.

Over the years I found that those who like to argue about training the most are actually those who progress the least. At one point you just have to do it.

For what it’s worth I know Aceto since he has been doing the dieting aspect of a pro bodybuilder I’m training and he does magic with body comp. BUT he is also a very high carb guy… meaning that Aceto favors using higher carbs in the diet… he loves carbs… so if a carb lover tells me that excess carbs are stored as fat I tend to trust him… if one could consume more carbs when glycogen stores are full, Aceto woul be to one to let you do it because he is a strong believer in the importance of carbs for muscle mass gain and preservation

23

In my humble opinion, I don’t think so. I think the eat production is only burning some excesses consumed that day and the thermic effect of feeding. It’s not something that should last long enough to have a significant impact on fat loss.

24

In my experience most of these type of questions (original post and michell) are more often motivated by the desire to indulge in high carbs food while getting leaner. Just like a client who asked me if he could try intermittent fasting, only to see it fail the first week and then admitting to me that he was only looking for a way to indulge.

25

BTW I hope you are not doing an argument by copy & paste… asking a question here, and then asking the same question on Lyle’s forum and saying “Thib and some guys on his forum said…”…

26

From The Five Element of Training by Charles Poliquin (https://www.t-nation.com/training/five-elements)\

Note that he used Chinese elements, but he later used a neurological assessment test (Braverman assessment) and used neurotransmitter dominance for each profile… The metal type is a GABA dominance.

“The Metal Type
Metal types are the pain in the ass of the weight training World. They spend more time talking and philosophizing about training than doing it. Dogma is their middle name. They thrive on discussing discipline, structure and love to ponder over the definition of terms. They are the iconoclasts of the weight-training world. Most of their calorie expenditure comes from talking. I do not train them.”

I’m obviously talking about Lyle, not the original poster. Science and knowledge is super important but doing it yourself with success and helping a lot of people reach a high level of success is IMHO even more important when it comes to learning the “know how”.

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27

Great thread coach.

Yes, the McDonald rants towards you are something in a league of their own. I’m not being sycophantic here because, just like a lot of ‘scientific’ studies funded by the companies who intend to flog their supplements on the back of it, you need to take whatever someone claims to be able to achieve with a grain of salt. I would say this for Poliquin as much as yourself so please take this the way it was intended.

I would also agree that, from long personal experience as a person who clearly has issues when it comes to food, so many carb cycling regimes are built on a culture of boom and bust, or punishment and reward. I still find myself looking at this type of nutritional programme. It’s a pain in the ass but probably something I will need to contend with long-term.

28

You are right.

In my contest prep and my goal to keep to a lower body fat between contests I can stay 7 straight days (after 6 months dieting very hard) with low/no carbs, and in my cheat meal I don’t want to have more discipline and put my mental energy in troubles to control how much should I eat. Even my willpower is affected because my life style and my demands depend on it (I’m not a bodybuilder but I enjoy of this sport and art) and fight to avoid decisions even deplete more my will power.

In my case, binge once a week doesn’t affect the process but speed it up. Twice a week put me on troubles.

And yes, I’m honest and I am agree I can ask you for such indulge but I can keep on my discipline and binge, cause in my nutritional approach I watched out binge speed up the process (I’m in a low fat low carb plan, not pure keto diet).

For this reason I try to ask some questions not for feeling a positive agreement or you tell me what I want to her rather than my own experience in this road is how my body works better and I’m wondering how to maximize such high carb meal ofrece binge even more (an I don’t use fat burners)

When I close to the contest binge becomes cheat and cheat becomes small amount of carbs.

Let me tell you I listen to you in some podcast and we really have the same set point as far as eat of food is concerned. I’m like you, one extreme or another. I have don’t know say enough. Funny thing, long time ago, you posted something about you woke up in the middle in the night and you ate a huge amount of Finibars and meanwhile I was reading you I was doing the same (and oh my got what pleasure when Finibars came up and they enter in our lives) and you looking for some good arguments for enhance the positive think to indulge with them or eat them frequently.

You are very smart guy I you know how to read. You touch me with that but I have to say I wanted to know both versions. You like me more and more with your honesty and direct comments.

For instance I would like to ask you something about these meals. I’m able to reach ketosis only eating protein and plazma during workouts (I measure it), but after such binge I have 2-3 days of troubles with my energy levels.

If I use caprylic acid on the bing (1 or 2 tbsp), after that, in the breakfast for the next 2-3 mornings, do you think the process would be quicker to return easily on ketosis without affecting the fat lose? Is there a relationship between glycogen stores fully with ketosis and training becomes a tool for coming back to it?

It’s a pity my English. I would like to express myself and read better, but Chris, you are really awesome and thanks for your honesty.

29

thanks CT for the replys

not posting somewhere else comparing what you or someone else says, I just wanted your opinion and answer to see how it compares with L… and with chris’s

no my question was not intended to allow me to binge or go mad on carbs at all I am too disciplined for that JUST exceptionally interested as to what happens
during a high/very high carb intake

I had a quick read through of the original anabolic diet book by Mauro di pasquale about carb loading and glycogen
and he also says that excess carbs once glycogen stores are all full are stored as fat or converted to fat seemingly the same as chris
do you think pasquale is also a smart guy ?

so far on paper I have read two very experienced clever guys say carbs are stored as fat once glycogen stores are maxed out (which does not seem to be what L… is saying
but the same two gentleman make no mention that calories must also be In excess for this to occur
or do they/are they just assuming when they say this, that when a persons glycogen stores are actually full then the odds/chances are that the persons calorie status will be also in excess for/to allow the storage to occur ?
curious as to your opinion on that point

maybe I am overthinking it all, but I am extremely curious to obtain a simplified (if it is possible) correct answer

so recapping if it is correct that is
if glycogen stores are all full, and excess carbs are still being eaten even if it is 100g or 200g extra but calories are in a deficit (which I think would require low protein and low fat)
then the excess carbs are not stored as fat but used as energy
is that correct ?

and they are/can only be stored as fat from the above example when calories are in excess also along with glycogen being full, otherwise they cannot ?

is muscle mass approx 40% of LBM I think I read this somewhere
so how much glycogen can muscle hold

thanks CT

30

Mauro Di Pasquale M.D. and Eric Serrano M.D. are two of the smartest men involved in nutrition, performance and body composition.

Mauro not only talk that talk (like a certain person) but he also walked the walk setting many records in powerlifting in many different weight classes and while having a very low body fat level.

31

To a large extent yes. At least that would be true for clean (not transformed) carb sources. Things like high fructose corn syrup might likely be turned to fat more easily.

But we are talking about a fairly low protein and fat intake as you mentioned (at least by bodybuilding standards). which might bot be optimal for maximal progress anyway.

But to paraphrase Dr. Mike Israetel (another guy who walks the walk, not just talks the talk like some person) the most important variable when it comes to losing or gaining fat is caloric balance. If you are in a negative balance you will likely not store fat under normal circumstances. Note that Dr.Israetel does prefer to increase fats and not carbs when consuming a caloric excess. He does include carbs but not to monster amounts, more like in a 30-40% carbs and fats.

32

That would be my guess because when you are consuming a deficit you are likely to tap into your muscle and liver glycogen stores for fuel, therefor making them “not full”. This is less likely to occurs if someone consume carbs frequently throughout the day since the body will likely use those carbs instead of the stored ones.

33

That’s a good question. I believe that it vary from one individual to the next. It would seem that a muscle can hold 1-2% of it’s weight of glycogen.

So if you have 80lbs of muscle on you it would mean 0.8 to 1.6lbs… which is 0.36 to 0.73kg or 360-730g… 730g being on the extreme side (I would theorise that this would be a person with a very high percentage of fast twitch fibers an testosterone level, natural or not). I would think that in most “training people” it would be around 1.5% of muscle weight which isn’t far off from the 400-500g you see in many sources.

But you must also consider that glycogen is not made up of only carbs. So saying that you can store 500g of glycogen doesn’t mean that you can store 500g of carbs. It’s likely a bit lower than that.

34

thanks CT

so recapping to see if I understand
in a calorie deficit glycogen stores are unlikely if ever to be full, as there is not the calories available/allowed in the diet that can ensure that there is enough
carbs being eaten to keep the glycogen stores actually full
so in this case carbs cannot be stored as fat
?

so it does just come back to that carbs/glucose is only/are only stored as fat when glycogen stores are actually all ‘fully maxed out’ then any extra will be stored
?
and as a coincidence/by-product of keeping glycogen stores permanently and consistently ‘full’ as a side note it means that calories are also in excess
to actually enable the carbs to be stored as fat
?

can they/are they also stored as fat when all glycogen stores are ‘full’ by eating at precisely at a maintenance calorie intake
as they still have nowhere else to go other than to be stored
?

just trying to simplify it similar to the above so I can put it down on paper the scenarios and the outcomes of when the carbs are stored as fat

I did read quite a bit of the original anabolic diet, and he repeatidly did say as aceto does, that when all glycogen stores are full, all and any excess carbs/glucose
are indeed stored as body fat for a later time
I think I would like to put my money on those two experts/sources
than what L… says about when they are/are not stored as fat
do you agree
??

thanks CT very curious to your answers!!

35

it is just the amount of actual carbs in grams that will fill glycogen stores that I was hoping to pin point or is there no exact or calculation to use ?

is muscle mass 40% of the total lean body mass is that correct ?

I have seen 400-500g being quoted a lot when I did search some time ago

but if you had to o your best say to keep your glycogen stores as close to full as possible from eating carbs and not go over
what calculation/sum would you use to reach this total carb value
total carbs at 1.5% of total muscle mass ?

I would guess that there is no true actual test or way that can be used to actually determine precisely when all glycogen stores are indeed ‘full’ ?
which kind of makes it all a bit of ‘well in theory…’
and the only thing we can be certain of is apart from adjustments/changes to the metabolism
is that excess calories cause body mass gain and deficit calories cause body mass loss

thanks CT, very curious to these answers

36

what do you make of this short interesting video CT do you disagree ?

when they say converting carbs to fat do they mean storing carbs as fat
or when they say converting do they actually mean converting carbs to fat which I assume is different to storing carbs as fat ?

interested in what you think of this

thanks

37

Dude, I don’t want to keep beating a dead horse. I can see that this topic is something very important for you, but personally I see what you are doing as a theoretical debate… you are in the “paralysis by analysis” zone. Personally for me the subject is closed, I said everything I had to say on the matter. I can see you looking for videos and articles of experts and posting them one after the other to get my comments, I wont do it. I said what I had to say about a topic that frankly doesn’t interest me that much, and as you mentioned yourself, is high theoretical (since it’s very hard, if even possible without lab tests) to know when glycogen stores are full. I prefer to deal in “in the trenches issues”, purely theoretical stuff bores me.

38

Sorry CT I apologise the repeated posts, and I understand, I did not mean to frustrate you or get you mad

if you could answer the following queries that have a ? one last time with a super brief answer, I will be most grateful and then I will disappear a happy grateful man

in a calorie deficit glycogen stores are unlikely if ever to be full, as there is not the calories available/allowed in the diet that can ensure that there is enough
carbs being eaten to keep the glycogen stores actually full
so in this case carbs cannot be stored as fat
?

so it does just come back to that carbs/glucose is only/are only stored as fat when glycogen stores are actually all ‘fully maxed out’ then any extra will be stored
?
and as a coincidence/by-product of keeping glycogen stores permanently and consistently ‘full’ as a side note it means that calories are also in excess
to actually enable the carbs to be stored as fat
?

can they/are they also stored as fat when all glycogen stores are ‘full’ by eating at precisely at a maintenance calorie intake
as they still have nowhere else to go other than to be stored
?

on a training note I am curious what rep range do you train in for hypertrophy? and have you ever or do you compete in bb, if so I would love to see how you looked
apologies and thanks!

39

if you could answer my previous post to you with the final questions that would be great
thank you again

40

Why are you continuing asking questions about this subject? What more benefit can you get out it? CT gave you tons of info in this post already. Plus it kinda irks me when someone tries to bump his post to get him to answer a question, especially if he already has said he’s done answering anymore questions about it and answered way more than I expected.

You do realize he gives away tons of free info in these forums? Just be grateful that he takes time out of his day to answer as many questions as he does. He doesn’t have to do this.

I don’t think many people really respect how much free info and direct access we get to high level coachs like CT, Wendler, plus many others on this site. It’s simply mind boggling. I mean it’s his job to train people, talk fitness yet he still gives away so many tips, workouts, plans, reviews and other things on this site for free and yet people still think he should answer every question they have right away.

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42

Bigun80…

Although he might have seemed rude, zapata1 is 100% correct.

  1. My typical policy is to NEVER answer people who bump up their question. It is one of the things that I find the most insulting in the world and normally is enough to put someone on my blacklist. Especially when, like you did, actually DEMAND an answer. And especially when I SPECIFICALLY mentioned that I said all I had to do on that topic.

  2. I love to help people out, that’s what gives me the most satisfaction. BUT when I say that I have nothing to add on a topic it’s just that: I HAVE NOTHING TO ADD… which by definition means that I do not want to discuss it further. On top of that nutrition really doesn’t interest me that much, I’m a training guy. I, of course have the nutrition knowledge to get the most out of training BUT it bores me to death! It’s not like training that I can’t get enough of. Nutrition I learn about because I have to, not because it is my passion. Some people love to talk about nutrition and all it’s little details (you see to be like that) but I don’t. When I’m done I’m done, period. And it’s not like I didn’t answer you previously.

  3. Over the past 4 days I filmed for 6-7 hours on two days, wrote 5 articles, wrote 20 programs for clients, trained clients and trained myself. My girlfriend’s grandmother also died and I had to put down the fire. I devoted Saturday to my wife (we celebrated Valentine day Saturday) and I’ve been working on creating the material for a series of seminars I’ll be giving worldwide. While doing that I still found a way to answer questions (by coming to the forum between 4 and 5am when I wake up)… I have to spend my energy wisely and answering the same questions over and over is not a smart time investment, especially since I believe I have contribute all that I could.

  4. People who suffer from paralysis by overanalysis generally annoy me greatly. I feel that it is one of the worst psychological characteristic to have when it comes to training. While I see it as my mission to help people out, I will not feed someone’s monsters.

I feel that I contributed as much as I could to this thread. Period. And what bothers me even more is that I believe I gave you a good answer. Much more thorough than many questions I answered. Yet you are not pleased, you think it’s not enough. For a guy who thrive on helping people out and making them happy that is really disheartening

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