[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
DH wrote:
Albert Beckles comes to mind. Looked his best at 50+. And Bill Pearl was as massive as ever in his 40s. He’s still “big” as he’s hitting about 70 or so.
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
!? 40 is when most peak…
Exactly. Look at Toney Freeman. The man has been bodybuilding for over 20 years but just now started turning heads at over the age of 40. Dexter Jackson is at least 42 right now. You don’t even reach that “dense” look until over the age of 35 for most of these guys. This isn’t pro football. You are not past your prime at 40 in bodybuilding. If anything, you are just hitting your stride.
Once again, all AAS users. I’m not saying it’s not possible, but come on, at that age things just go down hill, it’s just how it works.
I follow bodybuilding and I am wholly aware that the peak age in the IFBB is in the 30’s and beyond for some. [/quote]
Way, it goes down the drain when your hormones go… Not necessarily at 40 (though things sure decrease). If you messed up your natural hormone production/levels via misuse of AAS early on, then of course you’re likely going to have to go on HRT early…
There are some bench specialists in my area who are something like 47 and 48 (compete in tested feds and they sure don’t look/lift like they’re using) and getting stronger and stronger still, and they don’t even have muscle-memory on their side like KM as they have never been bigger/stronger before.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Prof X, you are comparing KM to guys around his age who compete in the IFBB, which helps my point more than anything.
Uhm, no…I’m not. I am comparing him to anyone who simply has some size on them. His shoulders are lacking big time[/quote] See, that’s one of the things I’m talking about. Levrone had monster-delts on gear (probably via site-injections of some kind) and now, as a natty, while his arms are still a strong-point, his crazy lateral tris and delts have disappeared and don’t seem to be coming back. KM is very similar in structure and strengths/weaknesses to levrone, I bet on gear he’d be able to get close to what levrone used to look like… The 2 are very damn similar in many ways. [quote] and he isn’t that thick at all. This isn’t that different than the pic of Kel I posted months back where this guy (at 6’2") competed under 190lbs yet looks like he is over 235lbs because of muscle shape.
My point in comparing him to Lockett was this. How is it possible that guys like Layne Norton and other natural’s have gotten there pro card and yet KM has not? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
I agree naturals also hit their best in the late 30s(and even very early 40s).
I’ve had my best gains from about 29-33. The last two years my training has been maintenance really because of various medical issues in my immediate family.
When a guy is training and eating well, the hormonal drop just doesn’t seem to be a real problem at this age range, even though many people will say that it should be.
DH
[quote]Professor X wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
DH wrote:
Albert Beckles comes to mind. Looked his best at 50+. And Bill Pearl was as massive as ever in his 40s. He’s still “big” as he’s hitting about 70 or so.
Professor X wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
!? 40 is when most peak…
Exactly. Look at Toney Freeman. The man has been bodybuilding for over 20 years but just now started turning heads at over the age of 40. Dexter Jackson is at least 42 right now. You don’t even reach that “dense” look until over the age of 35 for most of these guys. This isn’t pro football. You are not past your prime at 40 in bodybuilding. If anything, you are just hitting your stride.
Once again, all AAS users. I’m not saying it’s not possible, but come on, at that age things just go down hill, it’s just how it works.
I follow bodybuilding and I am wholly aware that the peak age in the IFBB is in the 30’s and beyond for some.
Wait, so you are actually claiming that late 30’s is only the peak for steroid users?
Dude, I usually don’t have a problem with anything you type, but you are way off base with this one.[/quote]
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
And let’s not forget that KM has muscle-memory on his side, just like Levrone.
Are you sure about that? All I remember seeing was his before pic and he looked like total crap.
Just curious, but why the Levrone comparisons? I don’t see him on that level at all. And if we are going by muscle memory kevin sure had a lot more to work with. You forget that Kevin (as did KM) originally trained their way up without gear (though kevin eventually started using and got even bigger, this is the “more” you are referring to. I’m not sure which of the two got bigger without gear… I think they even trained together for a while or something like that.) and consistently, instead of their later approach of fluctuating up and down in bodyweight.
KM plays some sport (football?) in the off-season, I think. You have simply missed his earlier transformations.
He didn’t just one day decide to train for the first time of his life and got big in a month.
Bottom line is, I can believe he’s natural but I don’t know if I ever fully will. Someone is always going to be cheating, there’s no reason it can’t be him.
Maybe he’ll be like Skip, just sell steroids but not use them
All I see is this huge size/leanness discrepancy across leagues in the natural ranks and it doesn’t add up.
You ever read my very first post on this forum? Just for the hell of it, have a look at that one…
And no, KM doesn’t blow everyone away at natty comps either… I think you’re mistaking him for someone else
[/quote]
Fair enough, I didn’t know KM trained early on with Levrone and had been big before, I justt saw this shitty before pic and then within 2 years…bam! Makes more sense now.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Way, it goes down the drain when your hormones go… Not necessarily at 40 (though things sure decrease). If you messed up your natural hormone production/levels via misuse of AAS early on, then of course you’re likely going to have to go on HRT early…
There are some bench specialists in my area who are something like 47 and 48 (compete in tested feds and they sure don’t look/lift like they’re using) and getting stronger and stronger still, and they don’t even have muscle-memory on their side like KM as they have never been bigger/stronger before.
[/quote]
True, but strength and hypertrophy are two different beasts, strength can be maintained naturally up until you are like 60…hypertrophy IMO relies much heavier on hormones than strength does.
[quote]bwhitwell wrote:
I had my test level checked when I was 42(6yrs ago) and it was 709, primary MD said no way to HRT. I have no idea what my test level was 15-20 yrs ago. I don’t think lower test past your 40 is a given.[/quote]
Alas, total testosterone doesn’t really mean much even though doctors are so fond of testing it. If I’m not mistaken I believe the normal range is 300-1100 so you are right in the middle.
Free test is what’s important though. Some people can have high total test and low free test.
Fair enough, I didn’t know KM trained early on with Levrone[/quote] I actually don’t know when they trained together or if Levrone simply coached him or what, but there was a connection there. Btw, check out that one guy on Professional muscle who is “coached” by levrone… In the thread about the levrone transformation. [quote] and had been big before, I justt saw this shitty before pic and then within 2 years…bam! Makes more sense now. [/quote]
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
Way, it goes down the drain when your hormones go… Not necessarily at 40 (though things sure decrease). If you messed up your natural hormone production/levels via misuse of AAS early on, then of course you’re likely going to have to go on HRT early…
There are some bench specialists in my area who are something like 47 and 48 (compete in tested feds and they sure don’t look/lift like they’re using) and getting stronger and stronger still, and they don’t even have muscle-memory on their side like KM as they have never been bigger/stronger before.
True, but strength and hypertrophy are two different beasts, strength [/quote] 1-3 rep strength [quote]can be maintained naturally up until you are like 60…hypertrophy[/quote] = 5-20 rep strength… And while it’ll degrade slowly over time, that definitely shouldn’t happen at age 40-48 (or so)yet. [quote] IMO relies much heavier on hormones than strength does.[/quote]
Excessive hypertrophy (what you get after roughly topping out your natural potential), yes. Most oldschool bodybuilders can maintain what they had achieved naturally (before starting to use gear) for a long time (some into their 70’s)once they retired from competition. Sure, some may be on HRT, but that’s not exactly a lot of support either(not that it should matter. We’re after all talking about KM and guys in their 40’s, and it’s not like your Test level just drop right to zero the day you turn 40)… And quite a few are totally clean these days.
As for those powerlifters I was talking about, they also keep getting somewhat bigger, though not at any kind of crazy pace. (and hey, they have weight-classes to stay in)
[quote]dropshot001 wrote:
the reason why layne norton has his pro card and kiyoshi does not is because kiyoshi is competing against non-natties in npc events while layne has his natural pro card, and attained that by competing against other natty guys.[/quote]
Um…no. He has definitely done natty comps. Musclemania, universe and all those are supposed to be natural.[/quote]
Lets get one thing clear, I have never competed in the Musclemania organization. Also I have had my pro card since 1998 when I first started competing. But I have never competed in a Pro show. I have always competed in the ABA/INBA/PNBA and NPC also NGA.
Is that really you? Haha. I thought you posted on here ages ago with a different name? Cant remember the password?
Good on ya for showing up. Congrats on the status youve achieved and good luck in the future. Continue to inspire myself and others, we need more natties, doing it for the natties.
Whyve you never competed in a pro show. Same reason jeff willett didnt? Because you tend to compete against non-naturals??
[quote]pro-a-ggression wrote:
Is that really you? Haha. I thought you posted on here ages ago with a different name? Cant remember the password?
Good on ya for showing up. Congrats on the status youve achieved and good luck in the future. Continue to inspire myself and others, we need more natties, doing it for the natties.
Whyve you never competed in a pro show. Same reason jeff willett didnt? Because you tend to compete against non-naturals??[/quote]
Thank you very much bro!!! Yup forgot my password!!! Sucked so I kinda gave up and just came back to read the posts from time to time!!!
Oh no, I just recently cometed in a pro show in the inba/pnba - natural olympia and the natural universe and won both. But the main reason i compete in the npc (non tested shows) is because of the competition. I like to compete against the best whether there natural or non natural.
[quote]Cephalic_Carnage wrote:
!? 40 is when most peak…
[/quote]
Exactly. Look at Toney Freeman. The man has been bodybuilding for over 20 years but just now started turning heads at over the age of 40. Dexter Jackson is at least 42 right now. You don’t even reach that “dense” look until over the age of 35 for most of these guys. This isn’t pro football. You are not past your prime at 40 in bodybuilding. If anything, you are just hitting your stride.[/quote]
Right! Ed Corney, Chris Dickerson & Viator come to mind. Lasting long, etc.
Casey hit his peak early though, but did stick around later in age. Ah, Bill Pearl is one who lasted a long time. There’s been quite a few. And of course ones that started late or didn’t get it going till later.
I’m 33 & it’s a great feeling knowing I haven’t reached my peak, got some great yrs. ahead me!
Nice.
Also, Prof. X, it’s great to have you around on here all these yrs. now. You’ve been quite the help!
