What are they teaching our kids?

Two things first off: 1. I don’t see what in my post makes you think I support the curtailment of free speech and that some races should were gloves, veils, or whatever. 2. I don’t see how I sound like a zealot and why my post disturbs you.

Other Stuff: Killing each other for secular reasons isn’t more worthy but I can at least understand it. Even if it is something like blatant imperialism at least it is for something practical. If I had to make a choice I would rather die for some practical gain than for some vague ideal. Politics and other such things at least relate to the real world. I don’t really feel that religion does. It is all based on something that can never be proven: the belief in a god. Politics is about ideas too but at least you can look back in history to get an idea of which ideas in politics work and which don’t. Nowhere in history will you find more proof than we have today about the existence of a god. Ok, enough for now. I have things inlab that need tending too.

Damici, if I recall correctly from middle school, Christians, Jews, and Muslims all worship the same God. Allah is simply another word for God. However, my teacher may have been wrong. Interestingly enough, I do remember learning from “A Message From Ancient Days” and “Across the Centuries”! From what I remember my middle schools teachers were never anti-Christian and pro-Muslim. I may have been lucky in that they taught everything in the same light. The books may have been biased, though. Regarding Muslims and Jesus, if I gathered my information by studying religion in middle school correctly, Muslims do in fact hold Jesus to be a prophet but not the son of God. They respect him as a prophet sent by God, but not to be the son of God as Christians do.

I am tickled pink at the fact that people concider 120 million fraks who want to kill jews and westerners a tiny fraction. Atter all it is only 2.4% of the worlds population. I appreciate the history of the wrongs commited by other churches in the past, but I hardly see the point as to how it pertains today. The fact that other churches did evil things makes it OK to blow up our buildings or bomb jewish towns and villages? I don’t understand how 120 million people who are full of hate and willing to die killing me or you is a small number…This is not a small number, it is very large and very dangerous. I can assure this war we have is going to escalate and it will be a very bad war. Afganistan wasn’t shit, the real test is coming.

Pat, you are correct: 120 million Islamic radicals is alot! This number tells us that we are currently having a major problem with Islamic Fundamentalism, that this is a violent chapter in Islam’s history, and that we have a long war ahead of us. This number does not tell us that the Koran preaches violence in its words of theology. End of story.

In your attempt to disprove the notion that Islam is a violent religion, your logic is flawed. I have not read the Koran, and don’t know what it specifically teaches or does not teach, but your argument that if the Koran advocated violence then 90% of the followers of Islam would therefore be radicals engaging in violence is wrong. Just as one possible illustration of why this is illogical: It is undisputed that Christianity teaches, among other things, that one should love one’s neighbor – now, aside from different people being able to interpret that in a multitude of different ways (more on that later), I think we can also pretty easily agree that 90% of Christians do not follow that precept all the time, nor do they make it the central goal of their lives. Does this disprove the notion that Christianity advocates love of one’s neighbor? Of course not.

Now, about interpretations. From what I have read, the debate about whether the Koran actually preaches that Muslims should kill infidels comes down to a matter of interpretation of a few specific passages. As former President Clinton demonstrated, the meanings of words can be parsed to such a degree as to make just about any interpretation possible (although not necessarily logically plausible). From what I can gather, the extremists have attached the “kill infidels via jihad” message to certain passages, and this is how they use Islam to advocate terrorism. Whether this is actually what the Koran teaches is a debate for Islam scholars, but there is definitely a substantial minority of Muslims that believes this is precisely what the Koran teaches. This is what we have to fight.

Finally, as to the idea that somehow Muslims would have been able to effectuate greater violence in the past if the Koran actually preached violence does not correspond to history or technology. Muslim nations engaged in wars in the past that they justified via religious means (as have Christians and probably every other large religion not founded in the last 200 years), and they prosecuted them to the extent technology allowed at the time, given transportation limitations and limitations on the amount of destruction that could be wrought with non-modern weaponry. In other words, they pillaged and destroyed as much as they could in the name of Allah. Muslim power peaked long before weapons of mass destruction entered the scene, and no Muslim country today has even the power to dominate the Middle East, much less to project power on a more global scale or to actually try to take on countries in Europe or the U.S. However, with the advent of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons, some of these states can now train and supply terrorist groups and attempt to plan attacks on Israel and the West, and evidence shows that countries such as Iran (a Muslim theocracy), Syria, Lybia, Algeria, Afghanistan and others have actively worked to further terrorist organizations and causes. Whether there is a causal link between the Islamic religion dominant in these countries has anything to do with this is not irrefutably established, but it at least provides strong circumstantial evidence to consider further investigation on the matter.

Personally, I think you are correct in drawing an analogy between Christianity, Judaism and Islam in that the teachings of each of these religions can be used to justify good and bad things, and have been used that way throughout history. The problem is that right now a large group of people believes that Islam justifies violent jihads against the West, Israel, and other “infidels.” The only way to fight this belief is to have other Islamic teachers preach the opposite interpretation and teach why it is the more correct interpretation. Unfortunately, there hasn’t been much vocal cooperation in this area, especially in the Middle East (and not even a lot in the U.S.A. from what I can see). And whether we convince them of the error of the violent interpretation or not, we had better do what it takes to stop them and protect our interests at home and abroad. 'Nuff said.

The reason for why the palestinians are attacking Israel with suicide bombers is because the israelis occupied their country. I can assure you that you would do the same thing as the palestinians if some one would try to occupy your country. Look at what USA is doing now. The talibans attacked USA, USA bombs the shit out of Afghanistan and tells the world that it will do the samething with every other country that supports the talibans. The only difference is that when USA is defending its people it’s “a war against terrorism” and when a non-US-ally does it’s terrorism. Yeah, right. The Islamic radicals hate USA because you are supporting Israel, it has nothing to do with religion. Religion is only used by Usama & co to fool people. “Here, read the Koran, look, if you fight a holy war Allah will love you, now, what are you waiting for? go and kill some americans and you will have a wonderful life in heaven”. Religion sucks. How many christians in America hates / dislikes the talibans? Do they dislike talibans because of their religion or because of what some crazy talibans did for roughly six months ago?

Think about it.

Let’s got something straight right now. There is a vast, VAST difference between the suicide bombings carried out by Islamic terrorists (in Israel/Palestine, on Sept. 11th, etc.) and the bombing and attacking of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda done by the U.S. YES, there has been collateral damage in the attacks on Afghanistan, i.e. some civilians were killed. However, that was never the U.S.'s INTENT, nor would it ever be, because killing civilians is counterproductive to our aims. As a matter of fact, GREAT CARE is taken by the U.S., however imperfect it may be, in using smart weapons, avoiding civilian areas as much as possible, and trying to target solely the “bad guys.” The Islamic terrorists/suicide bombers, on the other hand, INTENTIONALLY TARGET CIVILIANS. They strap bombs to themselves, WALK INTO RESTAURANTS OR BANQUET HALLS FULL OF CIVILIANS (or FLY INTO BUILDINGS FULL OF CIVILIANS) and detonate themselves! HELLO??? McFLY!!! BIG DIFFERENCE HERE! One is a targeted, strategic military attack which uses great care to minimize civilian damage (which admittedly can never be completely avoided). The other is the INTENTIONAL SLAUGHTER OF INNOCENT MEN, WOMEN AND CHILDREN - NON-COMBATANTS. The difference? THEY are FUCKING ANIMALS. End of story.

ILB – FYI, the PLO formed and was actively engaging in terrorist activities before the Israelis ever occupied the West Bank, which the Israelis did in response to being invaded, after driving the invaders out. We could get into a debate about who actually has a claim to the land on which the state of Israel was founded, but from the history I have read the Jewish claim goes back further historically and was more recently ratified. Both Syria and Egypt have refused to cede land for a Palestinian “homeland” because they are against the existence of Israel and would rather see the conflict keep going (I personally don’t really see any reasons other than religious ones why the Palestinians would not want to just move to Jordan, which is ethnically 80% Palestinian already). As for the U.S. support of Israel, it would seem that in a land of dictatorships it would be natural for the U.S. to support a western-style democracy with beliefs about personal freedom and human rights consistent with our own. Historically, the position developed almost by default, as many of the Muslim dominated countries in the area were under Soviet influence (which is also the reason given for our support of the Shah’s corrupt government in Iran and the fickle, tyranical House of Saud in Saudi Arabia), and the U.S. could not allow the Communists to have a dominant sphere of influence over the area controlling so much of the world’s oil supply.

Religious history: Judaism first, Christianity was founded on Judaism as Christ himself was a Jew. Islam was founded on both Judaism and Christianity as much of Mohamod’s info was based on the stories of a 7th cetury Monk. I just wanted to point out how obsured the hatred is, because if Judaism did not exist and
Christianity did not exist then neither would Islam, so I do not know what they are bitching about. We attacked Afganistan because they attacked us first, the isrealis are reigning down almight hell on the palistinians right now becuase they were attacked. The land the isreali’s occupy was obtained during the 6 day war because they were attacked. The Palistinians are abunch of pussies targeting civilians. If they wanth their land back they should engage the military and phisically kick Isreal out, not attack the civilians…That’s just a pussy way of saying we are to stupid and weak to declare war. I don’t give Arafat till the end of the year before his life has been ended.

This is going to ramble… I just read the entire thread. I do not look at Christianity with a bias, I simply feel it is a realistic view of things. Most religions preach ‘active’ conversion of non-belivers. And most, in some way shape or form, allow for violence against the people who refuse to convert. The treatment of women in fundamentalist Muslim countries is based on tradition and ‘church law’ not on the Koran itself, much like many Catholic beliefs are based on stuff the church made up. Want proof? Look for pergatory, sacrements, and other ‘canon laws’ in the bible itself. You won’t find them. Jews, Christians and Muslims all worship the same God. Jews believe Jesus and Mohammed are prophets, Christians believe Jesus was the son of God and Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, but Mohammed was the greatest prophet. Islam teaches that Christianity and Judiasm are tho only other true religions. 12 million IS a big number, but compared with 120 million it is not all that many. So, once again, you are judging a belief system on a relatively small number of whacko fundamentalists that imprison people for cutting their beards too short. Catholics are Christian, but Christians are not necessarily Catholic. I am a recovering Catholic myself, and do not hide from, nor actively preach my religion. Here’s one last thought - these people that many of you hate so much have a cause they belive in enough to DIE for it. Do you have something you believe in that much?

Michelle, yes I do have a cause that I’m willing to die for: the right for innocent people to be safe from being slaughtered by maniacs. Draft me for this war – I’ll go if called.

unless i misread your post i thought id point something out to you. its 100% against Judaism to convert people and if you can find me any sect of Judaism that does this i can assure you its 100% against JEWISH LAW to do so. In fact I don’t know of anytime in history when this has happened but maybe u’d like to enlighten me. In fact when people do convert to Judaism their is an attempt at talking them out of it by the Jewish court system-i believe Brock spoke of this once… and another thing the only type of prophet Jews thinks Jesus was, is (was )a false one-so I don’t no where u read that but its almost laughable coming from a pretty strong Jewish background on my part

That we hate so much? You don’t hate Bin laden and his goons?

Who cares if a religion does try to convert people, as long as it isn’t through physical coercion.

Damici - did you have that conviction before it was Americans who were slautered? I can think of many examples in VERY recent history where innocents were killed by maniacs… Xracergs - I gave up looking in my OT, and have no clue where my other religious texts are. I can say that I can’t quote you anything. However, I do know that two of my friends were raised Christian and are now Jewish, so evidently they are not turning them away at the Temple doors. I have never heard Jesus referred to as a false Prophet, just that he was not THE Prophet. It’s 11:45 though, so I can’t call the Rabbi I know… I’ll try to tomorrow.

having known many ppl of the Jewish faith, I can tell you there is no single Jewish sect. there are the reformed and the new schoolers, and then the hacidic(sp?) and then the other old schoolers, whos name is slipping my mind right now. but trust me, just because one rabbi preaches it, doesnt mean another even believes it. I talked to a rabbi at my school once, and he said that those of the Jewish faith only believed that Christ was a man. He meant well, but was a little misguided. I did some research, because I had heard different things from different ppl. and came up w/ just as many instances of Jewish teachings that did say Christ was a prophet as said he was a false prophet. I even came across a sect that believed Christ was the son of God. They followed all Jewish laws and traditions, but believed Jesus was the savior of man. not quite sure how that works, but i found stuff about it. So, i dont think that all Jews think exactly alike. its almost laughable that you would think such a thing…

Michelle…No, NO, NOOOO…not 12 million whackos…120 million whackos…There are 1.2 BILLION Muslims. 10% of that is 120 million! Which is a hell of a lot. That’s 2.4% of the entire worlds population, slightly less than half of the population of the US…Any disease that would affect 2.4% of the world’s population would be called a Pandemic of mass proportion. If a war killed off 120 million people it would be the worse war ever seen…This is not a small number of fanatics, this is a pandemic of fanaticism, and this is a very bad thing…I don’t care what anybody says, 120 million people united in a common hate is unprecedented at any time in history.

When someone slaughters your own people, threatens (very specifically, no less) to destroy your country and has a vision of wiping your culture and civilization off the face of the earth in order to replace it with theirs, it doesn’t take a superhero to say that yes, they’d fight against that. Would I personally go into combat for, say, innocents who were being slaughtered in a civil war in Timbuktu, a place in which we had no national interest whatsoever? No. I don’t think we should involve ourselves in being the world’s policemen. That does NOT, however, mean that we shouldn’t insert ourselves when our national interests ARE at stake. We should. And if you had asked me on September 10th if I would go to war if we or one of our close allies were attacked, without hesitation I would’ve said, “HELL YEAH.” By the way, it’s really galant of you to praise those Al-Qaeda fighters (read TERRORISTS) because they’re willing to “DIE FOR” their cause. OOOOOOOOOOH!!! How wonderfully romantic! How very impressive! You’re talking to someone who was just a few blocks away when people were jumping from he high floors of the World Trade Center on September 11th. Don’t try to impress me with how noble the terrorists who did that are, and don’t suggest for one second that our troops aren’t just as damn committed. Ask Neil Roberts’ buddies, or those that went back to get him, many of whom were also killed in the process. As many have been asking of Drax, I will also ask of you, WHAT DO YOU PROPOSE AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THIS WAR??? WE DID NOT START IT.

hey guys-i dont wish to get into a religious debate with you at all. and yes there r alot of sects of Judaism but if referring to the ones that actually follow biblical law you are really only left with the orthodox(either chasididc or modern or whatever u want to call them) and being that they follow Jewish law according to the Talmud I can assure you that it is AGAINST rabbinical law to actively seek conversion. This doesn’t mean they will stop people from converting but using Michelle’s two friends as example to say oh Jews have converted people is more likely an exception then a rule. We believe it is wrong to try and preach the Jewish religion and as I said before during an actual conversion process steps ARE SUPPOSED to be taken to talk the person out it.

With the Jesus thing-there is no real answer-ask 5 rabbi’s their opinion’s and you will probably get 8 answers maybe more. All I can tell you is according to Jewish tradition/law we do not accept him as messiah for a million reasons that we have gone over before and that the only sect of Judaism that I know of that makes any connection to jesus at all are the “jews for jesus” and I don’t even know if they are really jews –hell they are funded by the catholic church to convert jews to their faith.

I quote brock from a post he made a while back "Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi. Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended. B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID The Messiah must be descended on his father’s side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father – and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the Messianic requirement of being descended on his father’s side from King David! C. TORAH OBSERVANCE The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4) Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37) " the only reason i posted this was to try and claridy what judasim beleaives/teaches-Xracergs