West Side Speed Day Doesn't Work?

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Holo wrote:

I agree with these methods for power. The westside approach involves the “Force drop Absorption method” but bands allow overspeed/overaccelerated eccentrics.

Huh?!?

I occasionally see the “FDA method” employed in training or on the platform. I like to refer to it as “getting smashed like a bug.” It is something to correct, not strive for.

I don’t care who you are, achieving total relaxation at the start of the lift and magically correcting it in the hole is bullshit.

BTW, Louie Simmons did not invent the concept of compensatory acceleration (CA), which IMO is basically what we are discussing here, not “West Side Speed Day.” To imply, as this author seems to, that CA is not a useful tool in strength sports is abject silliness.

Additionaly, IMO, regardless of it’s intended effect, the concept of CA manifests itself in the same form, regardless if you utilize it in a manner that involves deceleration at the top of the lift, or not. I think this author is confusing concepts/terms. [/quote]

All I’m saying is that in the most recent article I’ve found from Simmons, he says that most of his bench pressers used a “catch and go” technique on DE bench day. I’ve heard since that they’ve made other changes.

Compensatory acceleration has nothing to do with the power squat because the sticking point is so low. The reason Westside has worked in the squat is because of broken eccentric/concentric chain which quickly loads the tendons (and so causes them to adapt).

The funny thing is, the purpose of speed day is not speed, it is forceful reversal, or forceful fast application of force. After the initial “pop” speed is inconsequential. Even in the bench they have gone to techniquing it up the last few inches.

42

merthdawg thats exactly what I was trying to say.

43

Look first off Westside Barbell didn’t envent speed training.

Secondly they are not ony the strongest gym in the world, but they have the strongest gym EVER!
The sytem has worked for thousands if not millions of people, how much more proof do you need.

People Travel from all over the world to visit this small gym in Columbus Ohio. Just so they can watch Louie Simmons train his athletes. Just so they can get a few peices of info to get bigger or stronger. It sounds to me that he is doing something right.

When ever you read stuff like this or hear other coaches questioning Weside Barbell, Ask yourself how many Champions they have trained? How many thousand pound squatters have they produced? Do people from all over the world want to visit and meet these so called experts?

500 pound bench RAW
650 squat
650 pound Deadlift
JA

44

If you push 150 lbs. one foot in one second, you have exerted 150 ftlbs/sec of work. If you push 150 lbs 1 foot in .5 seconds, you have exerted 300 ftlbs/sec.

The whole thing is based on the work formula. It is actualy realy simple and it works. The people I lift with, including me, who use the Westside format in its ENTIRETY have made considerable gains.

None of us use steroids.But I do go into a coma every couple of days and only wake up to eat.
Has the person who started this thread tried the Westside format stringently?

If not, then whats the use of even kicking this crap around?

45

All I’m saying is that in the most recent article I’ve found from Simmons, he says that most of his bench pressers used a “catch and go” technique on DE bench day. I’ve heard since that they’ve made other changes.

Compensatory acceleration has nothing to do with the power squat because the sticking point is so low. The reason Westside has worked in the squat is because of broken eccentric/concentric chain which quickly loads the tendons (and so causes them to adapt).

The funny thing is, the purpose of speed day is not speed, it is forceful reversal, or forceful fast application of force. After the initial “pop” speed is inconsequential. Even in the bench they have gone to techniquing it up the last few inches.
[/quote]

Again, HUH?!?

I feel like I am trying to decipher a foreign language.

You speak like somebody who has spent alot of time reading, but have not yet had the time to sort through it in practical application.

That may sound like a rip, but it is not.

Good luck with your training.

46

[quote]mindeffer01 wrote:
If you push 150 lbs. one foot in one second, you have exerted 150 ftlbs/sec of work. If you push 150 lbs 1 foot in .5 seconds, you have exerted 300 ftlbs/sec.

The whole thing is based on the work formula. It is actualy realy simple and it works. The people I lift with, including me, who use the Westside format in its ENTIRETY have made considerable gains.

None of us use steroids.But I do go into a coma every couple of days and only wake up to eat.
Has the person who started this thread tried the Westside format stringently?

If not, then whats the use of even kicking this crap around?
[/quote]
It’s NOT based on the work principle. What is a foot pound per second? Its defined as power. Nevertheless, you are mistaken. The key is that you can accelerate a 60% load with more than twice the acceleration as a 100% load. Load is not force. Force is load x acceleration and the fact is that a 100% load causes neural inhibition that keeps you from exerting 100% force. The actual work output is force x distance not load x distance.

I have used Westside and over time just found that I needed a higher percentage and to incorporate doubled bands.

I cycle doubled #2s, #3s and #4s on the squat and bench now and work up to a max triple.

As an example, I will put on doubled #3s (Blue/small) and 155 pounds on the bar, do a triple, add 10 do another triple and keep adding weight to my current max with those bands which is 225. The top load here is about 425.

Same on the squat up to a max triple with 225 and doubled #3s-the difference being more band stretch.

Its basically the approximate combo from the Circa Maximal phase. I got the working up to a max triple from Metal Militia and the doubled bands from the Joeaverage system.

I don’t have Jacka’s numbers but have benched 385 and squatted 475 at 198 and rising.

And JA’s right-don’t title a thread Westside doesn’t work. The point of the original post was that Westside is not a complete optimal program for increasing VERTICAL JUMP! Anyone disagree with this?

47

Merthdawg your the only one who read and tried to understand the stuff I had to bring to the table.

and besides Metal Militia = better benchers then Westside.

but the thing I’m trying to find out,is a Jump squat the same thing as a squat with bands.

and Thanks Merthdawg for not falling into the easy Westside is god trap.

48

Westsides can adapt to anyones training needs. So Westside would work great for Vert jump. Obviously you’d have to make a few changes. but the basic Westside template would still aply. Speed may consist of Box jumps or depth jumps rather then box squats.

Ask Martin at how he gets his athletes to jump 40" plus in the NFL combine.

JA

49

[quote]Holo wrote:
Merthdawg your the only one who read and tried to understand the stuff I had to bring to the table.

and besides Metal Militia = better benchers then Westside.

but the thing I’m trying to find out,is a Jump squat the same thing as a squat with bands.

and Thanks Merthdawg for not falling into the easy Westside is god trap.[/quote]

No. A jump squat is not the same as a squat with bands, and neither one is a complete answer to verticle jump.

Doing jumps with weight (jump squats) increases ground contact time so even this can teach you to be slow at the end of the jump.

Also, bands plyometrically load the squat and so you get more of a prestretch reflex before rising.

To maximize the effect of any form of squat on verticle jump, you need to have a ballistic reversal or a broken eccentric/concentric chain take place in the range of motion of an actual verticle jump which is only a 6-8 inch dip. Bands, or an attempt to move the bar fast will extend the range of effect for a few more inches.

50

[quote]apwsearch wrote:
All I’m saying is that in the most recent article I’ve found from Simmons, he says that most of his bench pressers used a “catch and go” technique on DE bench day. I’ve heard since that they’ve made other changes.
[/quote]

what do you mean catch and go? a pause at the bottom? just asking for my personal WSB training , not a part of this debate :slight_smile:

51

Actually, Mert wrote that but if memory serves me, it basically refers to a process of lowering the bar in a very fast but controlled manner, and catching it about an inch before it touches the chest and then pushing it back up.

It can be pretty hard on the pec/delt tie-in, so I would probably do it in 2-3 week cycles. Having torn my right pec 2X, I have never tried it.

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"To maximize the effect of any form of squat on verticle jump, you need to have a ballistic reversal or a broken eccentric/concentric chain take place in the range of motion of an actual verticle jump which is only a 6-8 inch dip. Bands, or an attempt to move the bar fast will extend the range of effect for a few more inches. "

Ummmm…says who…when was there a study that compared every method of training and came up with this conclusion. I love blanket statements like this that don’t even address the nature of the athlete’s current CNS firing state.

The problem with discounting DB Hammer, or quoting DB Hammer on a Strength Sports Thread is that DB trains athletes for rate dominant power production, not strength dominance.

Now, as far as DB’s theories go, everything found in his book is a direct application of Siff’s Supertraining. As far as athletes who he has trained, I cannot name a single one…I don’t know who the hell DB is, but I have read his book, which isn’t all that tough guys (try Verkhoshansky on for size), and it reiterates much of what Siff talks about.

Now, if we look at athletes Schroeder (similar techniques to what Holo described) has trained, let’s peek at Archuleta…who has used every single method named by Holo:

5’10
210
39" Vertical
4.4 fotry
530 Bench (this is raw)
630 Squat (this is raw)

And this is a rate dominant athlete. He must be fast beyond being strong. You see in athleteics, as opposed to pure strength sports, no one cares if you can squat the most or bench the most if you cannot get to the point of attack. The world is full of slow strong guys. As a team sport athlete, he also has to be agile… something not exactly trained for by the big boys of power lifting. What if Westside guys had to be able to stop on a dime, run like the wind for four quarters, etc…

Would they be as strong? Of course not…

Another guy Jay has worked with is Freeney for the Colts…again, not a strength dominant guy… a D-Tackle who also runs a 4.4 forty, I believe.

So while it is easy to call someone a charletan, I think maybe we should read Siff’s work, and then look at DB work… you might find that DB is just applying Siff’s work in a new fashion.

Here is a simple example of how someone might be easily confused: DB’s Auto-Regulatory System isn’t something he invented…no matter how much he screams it is… Poliquin wrote about it in his Principles Book years back. The drop off method is old school.

The idea of absorbing more force is something Louie talks about all the time with bands… do we not all remember his term “hypergravity”?

So how will this help an athlete who has to absorb a lesser weight faster…still high force, but on the field of play, I don’t have to slow down 600 pounds plus bands over the course of a full squat…instead I have to stop 185 pounds in a metter of a few inches of knee bend…

So Westside absorbs heavy weight slower, athletes absorb lighter weight faster…both produce amazing levels of force, but at different spots on the force curve. If this is so hard to understand, then I would start with Thibideau’s work, then move up to Siff and the Russians. Thibideau does an amazing job of his application of Siff and the greats… but wait, where are his olympic champions…is he a charletan also…?

I think not.

I think that DB just got carried away, and confused those in Bike shorts with green striped tube socks…and now they don’t like his application of studies…

Note to DB:
Better to make the complex simpler, than the other way… easpecially around meatheads…they get all riled (sp?) up easily.

The problems with the squat as a force generator at toe off are well known, and no, jump squats do not hurt you due to ground contact time… that is like saying step-ups hurt you due to ground contact time…and so do squats…holy cow, my feet never even leave the ground…what is to become of me!!! Jump squats simply are more strength dominant. They move training from being rate dominant to being more strength dominant…simple enough. Like all forms of peak power training they affect the overall area under the force curve.

Heavy Weights moved as fast as possible move the curve upward…lighter weights moved as fast as possible shift the curve toward the right…

Heck guys this is only 20 pages or so into Siff’s work… I won’t even cite either of those statements… you can look it up.

So, let us not be concerned with DB Hammer and Schroeder and all of those who train rate dominant athletes…their world is very different than that of strength dominant giants.

But, DB, Schroeder, Thibideau, DeFranco, Poliquin, Simmons, etc…

They all have read (and understood) the great Russian texts, and have developed their own systems for application to the particular needs of the athletes they train…

Until we can cite our rebuttles, let’s not make ourselves look like meatheads…

Remember T-Men are intelligent, educated, meatheads…

Jumanji
CSCS

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[quote]Jumanji wrote:
Mertdawg wrote
"To maximize the effect of any form of squat on verticle jump, you need to have a ballistic reversal or a broken eccentric/concentric chain take place in the range of motion of an actual verticle jump which is only a 6-8 inch dip. Bands, or an attempt to move the bar fast will extend the range of effect for a few more inches. "

Jumanji wrote:
Ummmm…says who…when was there a study that compared every method of training and came up with this conclusion. I love blanket statements like this that don’t even address the nature of the athlete’s current CNS firing state.

The problem with discounting DB Hammer, or quoting DB Hammer on a Strength Sports Thread is that DB trains athletes for rate dominant power production, not strength dominance.

So how will this help an athlete who has to absorb a lesser weight faster…still high force, but on the field of play, I don’t have to slow down 600 pounds plus bands over the course of a full squat…instead I have to stop 185 pounds in a metter of a few inches of knee bend…
[/quote]

So first you say that there is no evidence of my proposed training method and then you describe my proposed training method ie reversing a weight in the range of the vertical jump knee bend as the ideal method of training?

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There is no ideal method…each athlete has different needs…and didn’t you name two methods…with no case study to back it?

Mert, I agree with both of those proposed methods…heck, I use them more often than not… as an athlete’s needs progress to that point, but I am not sure I can agree with a blanket statement…

It would be like saying you’re a charletan without understanding what you are talking about…LOL

I think both of those methods work excellently though, and if your athletes are seeing results and are prepared for that level of force, go for it…

I learn from you, trust me. Just don’t get caught up in the: this is the best method line of thinking… you are brighter than that… each athlete is different.

55

All I want to know is if I start using bands or chains will I get an increase in my vertical jumping. I already have a three step 40 inch! My goal is one day a three step 50. Will this help? Thanks.

Box squats rule!

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[quote]Jumanji wrote:
There is no ideal method…each athlete has different needs…and didn’t you name two methods…with no case study to back it?

Mert, I agree with both of those proposed methods…heck, I use them more often than not… as an athlete’s needs progress to that point, but I am not sure I can agree with a blanket statement…

It would be like saying you’re a charletan without understanding what you are talking about…LOL

I think both of those methods work excellently though, and if your athletes are seeing results and are prepared for that level of force, go for it…

I learn from you, trust me. Just don’t get caught up in the: this is the best method line of thinking… you are brighter than that… each athlete is different.

[/quote]
I would certainly propose a variety of training methods and addressing the specific athlete. The only point I want to make with regard to the original question of the thread is that if you follow the Westside speed squat method of full range parallel box squats with 60% maximal loads, don’t expect that to be the complete solution to producing high speed high force movements on the field.

If you can do a deep paused olympic style squat with 400 pounds, you can probably push 750 pounds for the last 3 inches. If you applied 100% maximal force on a box squat with 60% (240) ie 400 pounds of force at the bottom rising to 750+ at the top, you’d jump almost 2 feet off the ground with the 240 or throw it 3 1/2 feet in the air. The other conclusion is that you can’t push 100% through the full range of motion because you get reflexively shut down.

57

so merth you’re saying basicly train a little dip like you would before jumping?
but with light weight and fast accel?

58

[quote]Holo wrote:
so merth you’re saying basicly train a little dip like you would before jumping?
but with light weight and fast accel?[/quote]

Yea. DeFranco does something like this, quarter squats with a ton of band tension, when prepping guys for the vertical jump test. The ‘Westside Method’ is a conjugated template for POWERLIFTING, nothing says you can’t mix in other exercises that meet the specific demands of YOUR sport.

CT’s Theory and Application book has a description of ‘power curves’ and ‘velocity curves’ that he developed through testing his own athletes, where he makes a distinction between ballistic lifts, where the resistance is projected and has very little resistance (10-25%) and dynamic work i.e. ‘regular lifts with a maximum power load (40-65%)’ --p55-57. Both have transfer to sport performance, just at different stages of the F/V curve.

And Westside doesn’t do a ‘ballistic bench’…just search for ‘catch’ or ‘release’ and Jim Wendler/Bob Youngs/Dave Tate never say that you take your hands off the bar, though Jackass can probably describe this better than me.

59

[quote]Holo wrote:
so merth you’re saying basicly train a little dip like you would before jumping?
but with light weight and fast accel?[/quote]

Well, if you can’t do a deep double bodyweight olympic style squat with a pause then you definitely should benefit from general strength as well, but yes, either a fast reversal (using bands) in the 0-8 inch zone, or going from relaxed to flexed in this range. The weight itself could be almost anywhere and I don’t even think you have to try to accelerate fast. You just need the initial pop. Now are we talking officially about vertical jump?

If so, you should consider (no blanket statements here) stretching the hip flexors ballistically on a progressive basis, and stretching the tibialis and foot and also doing toe raises (not calf raises but raises up on the toes themselves.

60

John P,

CT’s Theory and Application book has a description of ‘power curves’ and ‘velocity curves’ that he developed through testing his own athletes, where he makes a distinction between ballistic lifts, where the resistance is projected and has very little resistance (10-25%) and dynamic work i.e. ‘regular lifts with a maximum power load (40-65%)’ --p55-57. Both have transfer to sport performance, just at different stages of the F/V curve.

Yep, the same information is found in Supetraining also…

Mert,

Did we hijack this?

BruceLeeWannaBe,

When using bands concentrically, they do increase your TUT, plus have the deceleration problem, albeit reduced. I personally go from building a solid base of strength, then move to the higher end of power production, then onto ballisitcs.

Now, high end power production must also include force absorption. The problem with many programs is that they forget to address two very crucial factors included progressing along the force curve:

  1. The progrssion isn’t merely based on Concentric speed (Strength → Rate). Eccentric speed (force absobtion (sp?) must also be addressed. Therefore, what DeFranco, CT, DB, Schroeder, Baggett, myself and anyone else who recognizes this flaw does is to address this area… and amazingly enough, we have all found out that the old Ruskies knew what the heck they were talking about… the more force you can train yourself to absorb, the more you will display concentrically.

So, quick banded drops into 1/4 squat position is great, so are quick drops with weight… if you have progressively have built to that point.

A quick note: if you haven’t been doing this type of training before, and really are mostly a weightroom guy, be careful with these methods as stabilizers will be tested to a great extent here… almost like stability balls and balance boards for guys that are straight.

  1. The next problem that must be addressed is that you must move from less reactive to more reactive. You must move from slow eccentrics, to moderate eccentrics, to fast eccentrics, to less weight and drop eccentrics, to overspeed eccentrics… all with reversal at the bottom. If you are progressing appropriately, you will work on the ‘drop and catch’ portion (whether it be slow or fast) with a stabilization at the bottom. So, DB’s REA’s, Simmon’s Box Squats, CT’s Catch of the Clean and Jerk. All have forceful eccentric with a need for you to stop under control, stabilize, then explode upward.

But, you must move from that to totally reactive. Without a pause. Both will build different qualities.

Mert, your 1/4 drop with stabilization is awesome. By breaking the ecc / con chain you will really build starting speed, and if you look at an athlete when they are in correct position to really start and enter drive phase, you will find that the hip angle is very similar to what you are talking about…the knee angle is deeper, but you get the point. Your reactive quick drops will help through late drive, transition, and top speed…where joint angles are becoming less and less. And of course, with the vertical…

The oversight of these two issues is so prevalent that when I went to the latest CSCS “sports Specific” conference, I had to listen to a guy who didn’t even care if his athletes catch during the clean. So they literally get very little force absorbtion (sp?)… I was stunned, but I was a good boy and didn’t call him on it… too many guys with bike shorts, LOL.

This guy was a strength coach at a school that is in a Big 6 D-I conference. Awesome.

I guess when all you recruit is rate dominant guys, the need for really learning to train the nervous system is minimized…sorta.

I love guys like this, they get a 4.4 guy who is 175 pounds and five years later the kid leaves as a 4.4 guy that weighs 190 lbs. And if the coach does well, the S&C coach is “the man”. Unfortunately, the same results would be seen if the kid had just seen a nutritionist and followed a Muscle Media 2000 program…in a year tops.

So don’t lose sight of progressing all of the phases of movement. Whether it be CT, myself, Kelly B, Simmons, Poliquin, whoever you follow, understand that there is a method to the madness… and a progressive system.

Jumanji
CSCS

Guys, I hope this made some sense, and will help you move from