I know a few people who have benefitted from Westside training. But, I think Westside training is suited for extreme gear use. Westside Barbell competes in a forum where multiple ply suits and shirts are allowed. If you look at their deadlift numbers, one sees that those numbers are not any better than deadlift numbers from the 80s (non-Westside athletes). The numbers that do differ are those of the squat and bench. Squat and bench are the lifts that are most affected by gear.
beef
The training associated with Westside works well for raw, single ply, or double ply lifters. You just have to know how to manipulate it to fit your needs. A raw lifter will use more straight weight, chains, DB’s (for bench accessory), etc. than a shirted bencher will use.
Westside lifters are doing just fine in the deadlift, actually. Their deadlift numbers at WPO meets are pretty good. Also realize that their training is a bit different for the deadlift than for the squat or bench, so pointing to gear only as why “Westside” works for certain lifts is a bit limited in scope.
There have been plenty of big raw benches from Westside, so saying that their methods don’t work for non-heavily geared lifters is wrong. Nevermind the fact that Louie totaled elite in 5 different weight classes before gear ever really got “good”. In the end, you have to know how to manipulate training factors to get the desired training effect, and not follow a simple template 52 weeks a year.
while im unsure as to the effectiveness of westside… even if that article is accurate, i dont think it dicredits westside. maybe you’re forgetting that the athlete isn’t doing much to decellerate the bar during bench, gravity does that job…
Remember speed-strength and strength-speed although related are two different animals.
The article you mentioned above focuses on speed-strength. Powerlifters don?t need speed-strength, they need strength-speed.
Speed-strength: Moving a light resistance explosively
Strength-speed: Moving a moderate resistance as fast as possible
here is the whole article
One of the first things I discussed with Dietrich that had me scratching my head was that PIM squats could actually hinder my vertical jump development. ?You gotta squat?, I thought. He explained to me that while the neuro-sequences were similar, the patterns of activation were very different. The more I thought about it the more it made sense. I went back through some of my old training books to see what info I could dig up, and I thought I might share some of what I found.
The first book I looked at was Designing Resistance Training Programs by Fleck and Kraemer. I remembered reading something similar about this topic when I first got the book. So, armed with new knowledge, I went back to take a fresh look at it. Sure enough on page 145 I found a section entitled ?Deceleration Phase and Traditional Weight Training?. I found exactly what I was looking for. Here is the first paragraph:
?The results of many studies (Berger 1963c; Wilson et al. 1993; W.B. Young and Bilby 1993) highlight a problem with traditional weight training and power development. It has been observed that when lifting a weight, the bar decelerates for a considerable proportion (24%) of the concentric movement (Elliott, Wilson, and Kerr 1989). The deceleration phase increases to 52% when performing the lift with a lighter resistance (e.g., 81% of 1 RM) (Elliott, Wilson, and Kerr 1989). In an effort to train at a faster velocity more specific to sport activity, athletes may attempt to move a light weight rapidly during the lift. This increases the duration of the deceleration phase (Newton and Wilson 1993b), as the athlete must slow the bar to a complete stop at the end of the range of motion and therefore does not optimally develop power.?
The authors go on to say:
?Plyometric training and weighted jump squats avoid this problem by allowing the athlete to explode all the way through the movement to the point of load projection (i.e., takeoff in jumping, ball release on throwing, or impact in striking activities). It could be argued that traditional weight training activities promotes development of the deceleration action. The deceleration results from a decreased activation of the agonist during the later phase of the lift and may be accompanied by a considerable activation of the antagonists, particularly when using lighter resistances and trying to lift the weight quickly (Newton et al.1994). This deceleration obviously is very undesirable when attempting to maximize explosive performance. To offset this, a style of lifting must be incorporated that involves ballistic resistance training.?
Steven Plisk, in High Performance Sports Conditioning, also discusses the need for ballistic (RA) training when maximal explosiveness is desired: ?Some individuals have misunderstood the method of submaximal accelerative efforts to mean that they should accelerate light weights through the entire range of motion without releasing them (i.e. , ?speed reps?). Such movements have been shown to be futile because more time is spent decelerating the bar for self protection than accelerating it for beneficial force or power production?(78-79).
These three paragraphs perfectly illustrate Dietrich?s ideas about PIM training being detrimental to power training, and the need to incorporate reactive-acceleration training into a power training protocol. Numerous coaches advocate the use of lighter resistances for speed-strength training development, and many advocate compensatory acceleration techniques of such loads. However, as stated above, without an accompanied load release at the end of the movement you will incorrectly program the nervous system to de-emphasize agonist action at the end of a movement, and actually increase antagonist activation, which creates a faulty pattern of activation, which causes a BIG PROBLEM. We know that increasing velocity at toe-off in the vertical jump or the release point of a throw is the determining factor for a big jump or a 100 mph heater. RA work, or as these authors term it, ballistic lifting solves this problem by allowing the acceleration pattern to be maintained throughout the entire range of motion thus improving acceleration at the end of the movement versus actually hindering it, as traditional PIM methodics do.
Does this mean you should scrap all traditional (PIM) training? Of course not, but it does mean that you need to take a strong look at what is holding your performance back. If you need strength to aid the absorption phase then PIM, ISO, OI, FDA, and ADA methodics can be used to help improve whatever deficiency you may have in this area. What about REA and OSP-REA work, don?t we decelerate the bar at the end of these methods as well? Yes, we do, but the goal with these movements is to train for specific deficiencies in the absorption ? stabilization ? reaction ? acceleration cycle. Remember, we also program these methods with a companion session consisting of RFI and RA work to help preserve proper firing patterns.
The progression we are looking for is to be proficient in the absorption and stabilization phase (ISOs, FDAs, and ADAs). Then, your attention turns to the reaction phase. Failure to adhere to the elements of the cycle will hinder performance gains or worse yet cause injury. Think about it this way, how can you react with a load properly if you cannot absorb and stabilize it first? Improving your ability to quickly absorb and stabilize a load will also greatly aid in the subsequent reactive contraction. According to Mel Siff, a short, quick braking movement in the absorption phase of the A-S-R-A cycle will improve the reactive potential for the movement (Siff Supertraining pg 219).
When you are proficient in the first three phases of the A-S-R-A cycle, then you can turn your attention to the acceleration phase. This brings us back to the main focus of the article, to improve acceleration you must maintain acceleration throughout the entire ROM and actually leave the ground/ release the bar at the end of the movement. I know that many athletes and coaches have had success using CAT techniques but given the research above, it makes me wonder if their results would have been even greater if they implemented their acceleration training in a slightly different manner. As a side note, I think this is why so many coaches bang on the Olympic lifting drum. In the O-lifts when accelerating the bar upwards prior to the catch phase it is not uncommon to see athletes jump during this phase. This is a primary reason for the Olympic lift?s success in developing power versus traditional movements (squats etc…) My problem with Olympic lifting is that the movements are fairly complex to perform correctly. I would rather give an athlete a jump squat which will have a similar effect but is an easier movement to learn. That is a topic for another day though.
the technical words
Plio-Iso-Miometric Method (PIM)- Traditional training. Movement starts with a pliometric (lowering) followed by an isometric as the movement shifts from pliometric and then the isometric is followed by miometric, or the contraction phase. So, in simplistic terms, lower, stop, press. Even though the isometric, or stopping point is neglible in most traditional PIM movements, movement must still stop in one direction before it can start in the opposing direction.
Force Drop Absorption Method(FDA)- Performed with conventional strength training exercises by achieving complete relaxation and letting the weight free fall. Then as the weight falls a predetermined distance you will switch, as rapidly as possible, from relaxation to peak tension to instantly stabilize and absorb the force. The key is to gain separation. In upper body movements this is the distance between hands and the bar. However, lower body movements like squats require the bar to be held tight against the back with the separation gained between the feet and floor.
Amplitude Drop Absorption Method (ADA)- Drop jumps- Step off a high box and land on the ground and absorb the impact in an athletic stance, squat, or split squat position. Terminate height when the soft and silent landing is no longer achievable. Choose height rather than load to maximize the pliometric contribution.
Reactive Acceleration Method (RA)- Extending preceding ADA work with a reactive contraction (pliometric). Depth jumps are an example.
I would ignore anything from Inno-Sport or DB Hammer. Unless they can give you the names and performances of those they have helped, they have NOTHING on Westside for either powerlifting or sports performance. Charlatans.
[quote]Holo wrote:
the technical words
Plio-Iso-Miometric Method (PIM)- Traditional training. Movement starts with a pliometric (lowering) followed by an isometric as the movement shifts from pliometric and then the isometric is followed by miometric, or the contraction phase. So, in simplistic terms, lower, stop, press. Even though the isometric, or stopping point is neglible in most traditional PIM movements, movement must still stop in one direction before it can start in the opposing direction.
Force Drop Absorption Method(FDA)- Performed with conventional strength training exercises by achieving complete relaxation and letting the weight free fall. Then as the weight falls a predetermined distance you will switch, as rapidly as possible, from relaxation to peak tension to instantly stabilize and absorb the force. The key is to gain separation. In upper body movements this is the distance between hands and the bar. However, lower body movements like squats require the bar to be held tight against the back with the separation gained between the feet and floor.
Amplitude Drop Absorption Method (ADA)- Drop jumps- Step off a high box and land on the ground and absorb the impact in an athletic stance, squat, or split squat position. Terminate height when the soft and silent landing is no longer achievable. Choose height rather than load to maximize the pliometric contribution.
Reactive Acceleration Method (RA)- Extending preceding ADA work with a reactive contraction (pliometric). Depth jumps are an example.
[/quote]
I agree with these methods for power. The westside approach involves the “Force drop Absorption method” but bands allow overspeed/overaccelerated eccentrics.
Also, not listed (suprisingly) is broken eccentric/concentric chain method which is the essence of westside box squats, board presses and others. Any time you go from tendon slack to tendon tense situation in a short period of time you will bypass shut-down reflexes FOR A WHILE-like .1-.5 seconds.
The problem with westside and verticle jump is that you will always be in the slow-down range when in position similar to jumping. A verticle jump is a 6-10 inch range of motion. If you want to increase it, you must train fast tendon loading in this 6-10 inch range.
I would summarize that article as follows:
Blah, blah, frickin’ blah.
It has absolutely nothing to do with stength training.
However, I do love the acronyms. They’re FANCY.
[quote]The Opal wrote:
while im unsure as to the effectiveness of westside… even if that article is accurate, i dont think it dicredits westside. maybe you’re forgetting that the athlete isn’t doing much to decellerate the bar during bench, gravity does that job… [/quote]
No it doesnt. Gravity is a constant, the bar deacceleration happens late in the movement.
Unless you can show that gravity increases as you press further away from your chest, or stand up further in squat.
There is specific deacceleration happening beacause of the muscular system. part of the protective mechanisms for the joints.
[quote]RickJames wrote:
I would ignore anything from Inno-Sport or DB Hammer. Unless they can give you the names and performances of those they have helped, they have NOTHING on Westside for either powerlifting or sports performance. Charlatans. [/quote]
Agreed. Theory is fine, and it is interesting theory, but until some guy doing ballistic training squats a thousand pounds I could really care less about this. Theory will always be secondary to results because results are what we are all after; no one hungers for a theoretically great squat.
Aren’t some lifters now dropping the speed day? Maybe some people just aren’t benefitting from it.
The keyword is some. Some people aren’t benefitting from it, obviousuly a lot of people are getting gains from speed day.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Holo wrote:
I agree with these methods for power. The westside approach involves the “Force drop Absorption method” but bands allow overspeed/overaccelerated eccentrics. [/quote]
Huh?!?
I occasionally see the “FDA method” employed in training or on the platform. I like to refer to it as “getting smashed like a bug.” It is something to correct, not strive for.
I don’t care who you are, achieving total relaxation at the start of the lift and magically correcting it in the hole is bullshit.
BTW, Louie Simmons did not invent the concept of compensatory acceleration (CA), which IMO is basically what we are discussing here, not “West Side Speed Day.” To imply, as this author seems to, that CA is not a useful tool in strength sports is abject silliness.
Additionaly, IMO, regardless of it’s intended effect, the concept of CA manifests itself in the same form, regardless if you utilize it in a manner that involves deceleration at the top of the lift, or not. I think this author is confusing concepts/terms.
[quote]Holo wrote:
the technical words
Plio-Iso-Miometric Method (PIM)- Traditional training. Movement starts with a pliometric (lowering) followed by an isometric as the movement shifts from pliometric and then the isometric is followed by miometric, or the contraction phase. So, in simplistic terms, lower, stop, press. Even though the isometric, or stopping point is neglible in most traditional PIM movements, movement must still stop in one direction before it can start in the opposing direction.
[/quote]
I can’t be the only one who saw this! Are we now redefining strength training terminology or am I just behind on the times? (Possible.) The last time I checked, LOWERING a weight is known as “eccentric.” Plyometric/pliometric describes the stretch-shortening cycle which is: [isometric-]eccentric-isometric-concentric[-isometric].
Therefore, all movement is “pliometric.” Plyometrics, as referred to in the strength training world, is also called “jump training.” “True” plyometrics, as conceived by Verkhoshansky, known as the “shock method,” (depth jumps) were renamed “powermetrics” by Siff and Verkhoshansky (see “Supertraining”) to distinguish them from the Americanized version of jump training–plyometrics, which improve speed-strength, but not explosive-strength, which was the purpose/outcome behind the “shock method.”
Also, as far as decelerating the load on DE (speed) days, that is what the addition of chains, bands, chains & bands, etc. is supposed PREVENT, by ACCOMODATING RESISTANCE, or providing increased resistance throughout the entire strength curve to make up for improved leverages, and therefore decreasing the mechanical advantage found in those ROM with improved leverages.
Make sense? If not, try it, then it will.
I was archuleta do the Drop thing in his video he was doing with 2 plates.
[quote]Holo wrote:
I was archuleta do the Drop thing in his video he was doing with 2 plates.
[/quote]
I have no idea what you are talking about, please rephrase this.
The proof is in the pudding…
[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Theory will always be secondary to results because results are what we are all after; no one hungers for a theoretically great squat. [/quote]
Priceless.
Uh…it brings to mind a term that Mel Siff coined…“Guru-Speak”. If you really understand what you’re talking about, you should be able to explain it in terms that even a child can understand. Perhaps the poster with the big 25 cent words - that some “guru” invented - has impressed himself, but I doubt that he has impressed many others. The number one reason that most exercise programs fail is not that the athlete is ascendeing of descending too fast or too slow, etc., it’s that the athlete fails to show up. You’ve gotta show up for your program to work.
PS - I’m not knocking real science by any means, but don’t make it more complicated than it really is just to inflate your own ego.
[quote]thebigdogbarks wrote:
Uh…it brings to mind a term that Mel Siff coined…“Guru-Speak”. If you really understand what you’re talking about, you should be able to explain it in terms that even a child can understand. Perhaps the poster with the big 25 cent words - that some “guru” invented - has impressed himself, but I doubt that he has impressed many others. The number one reason that most exercise programs fail is not that the athlete is ascendeing of descending too fast or too slow, etc., it’s that the athlete fails to show up. You’ve gotta show up for your program to work.
PS - I’m not knocking real science by any means, but don’t make it more complicated than it really is just to inflate your own ego.[/quote]
Amen!
Preach on!
I can see where dynamic effort work wouldn’t necessarily benefit everyone since no everyone has the same weaknesses.
I personally don’t need alot of DE work since I’m already very fast in my lifts but I still do some DE work to keep from slowing down as I age.
I’m more receptive to a mish mash of max effort and repetitive effort work with very short rest times.
Whether you are a fan of Westside training or not they get results and programs based on their template help out us mere mortals who are training.
I mean hell Dave Tate and Westside training was in last months Men’s Journal being touted as a the best way to not only get strong but to also look good.