Wendler 5/3/1 Program

Training Powerlifting
161

[quote]KBCThird wrote:

you have two options on your last set. Either get 5 and stop (the original method, I believe) or rep out but DO NOT FAIL (the kroc method, as it’s been called). Whatever your notion of adding 5 lbs and going for another 5 rep set is, thats not 531.

Do it if you want, but that’s not hte program Jim wrote about. As far as “isn’t this misleading/what it should be called” dont we have better things to do with our time than quibble over semantics?

It’s not ACTUALLY 85/90/95 anyway, since you adjusted downwards at the beginning and you SHOULD be getting stronger as you go on.[/quote]

Well if you arent going to failure, how can you even gauge if youre making progress for the first 4 months or so? Lets say the first week of cycle one, after having dropped 10% of your 1rm, you lift 240 for 10 reps. Fast forward to week 1 of cycle three where you do 250 for the 5rm week. If you do that for say 9 reps, wheres the progress? Know what i mean? Seems to me going all out on your final set is the only way to tell if you’re making any gains.

162

I believe that is correct. Remember 5/3/1 is for the experienced raw lifter looking for slow but steady increases over time.

Also, by the time you are using your true 1RM for your workouts, you will have increased your 1RM signficantly at that point. You most likely will have increased your 1RM from 300lbs to 330 or more! So in approximately six months, you could have increased your bench by 30lbs. That’s a fantastic increase.

For example, let’s say that based on 270lbs (90% of 300lbs) at the beginning of the first cycle, you were to do 260lbs x 1 (95% of 270) during your third week. So let’s say that you did as many reps as possible and most likely got at least 3 reps but potentially 5 or more.

Now, by the time you are using 300lbs as a part of your seventh cycle, on the third week you’d use 95% of that amount (285lbs) for your heavy set of one but do as many reps as possible. So again, you may get 3-5 or more reps at 285, which means that your max would definitely be more than 300lbs at this point.

Yeah, it seems like that’s a long time to focus on trying to increase your strength, but for an advanced lifter, a 5-15lb increase on their bench in a year would be good.

At least, this is what Jim wrote about in the manual. Obviously, this is based on more advanced lifters, as beginners can increase their bench and other lifts a lot more in the first few years of training.

163

[quote]Skull_Crusher wrote:
So if you take 90% of your max, which say is 300, and calculate everything based off of 270, am i right in saying it will take you 7 cycles or 28 weeks just to get back up to using weights calculated off your original max before you started? (adding 5 lbs a week for bench) What am i missing here, that just doesnt seem right. [/quote]

My 2 cents: this thing of reducing 10% is something you CAN do but not a rule of the program. Jim says in the book he did that for his deadlift but consider that he was a elite level lifter so his true max is a lot more taxing on the body and his rate of progress is slower.

I think the idea of the book is:
-calculate the percentages based on your max(not 90%)
-if you are not sure about your max error on the conservative side
-if you feel you need (for whatever reason)reduce the starting “max” by 10%, 20lbs, whatever…, and work up from there.

And lets not forget that you can also set PRs by going for max reps(not to failure) in the last set of each day.

164

[quote]Nate Dogg wrote:

Also, by the time you are using your true 1RM for your workouts, you will have increased your 1RM signficantly at that point. You most likely will have increased your 1RM from 300lbs to 330 or more! So in approximately six months, you could have increased your bench by 30lbs. That’s a fantastic increase.

[/quote]

Agreed. This pretty much explains it.

165

[quote]Skull_Crusher wrote:
KBCThird wrote:

you have two options on your last set. Either get 5 and stop (the original method, I believe) or rep out but DO NOT FAIL (the kroc method, as it’s been called). Whatever your notion of adding 5 lbs and going for another 5 rep set is, thats not 531.

Do it if you want, but that’s not hte program Jim wrote about. As far as “isn’t this misleading/what it should be called” dont we have better things to do with our time than quibble over semantics?

It’s not ACTUALLY 85/90/95 anyway, since you adjusted downwards at the beginning and you SHOULD be getting stronger as you go on.

Well if you arent going to failure, how can you even gauge if youre making progress for the first 4 months or so? Lets say the first week of cycle one, after having dropped 10% of your 1rm, you lift 240 for 10 reps.

Fast forward to week 1 of cycle three where you do 250 for the 5rm week. If you do that for say 9 reps, wheres the progress? Know what i mean? Seems to me going all out on your final set is the only way to tell if you’re making any gains.
[/quote]

Instead of hypotheticals, I’d put forward my own results:
week1 cycle 1 255x10
week 1 cycle 3 265x11

week 2 cycle 1 270x8
week 2 cycle 3 280x9

week 3 cycle 1 285x7
week 3 cycle 3 295x8

I’m happy with my progress. If you give 531 an honest try, and do it as written, and commit to, say, 12 weeks of it, I think you’ll be happy, but if you’re not, then I’d be much more willing to look at your specific situation rather than engage in the hypothetical “well what IF you add 5 lbs and go down by a rep”

166

[quote]malonetd wrote:
Hey guys, should I only do this program for 1 lift each day, but as part of a 6 day a week program? That way I can do one full cycle in two week? What do you guys think about skipping the deload in this type of set up? I would like to get through 9 cycles in six weeks if possible. Thanks.

Oh, and, it doesn’t really matter what anyone says or what advice I get, I’m going to do it my way anyway.[/quote]

I think i do something similar…just doing 2 cycles before deloading. For me 2 cycles will take 6 weeks…then i deload for one. I let you know the results later but i think my body can take it as the weight im using are not even close to what Jim or a few of you are using…im not a elite lifters…

167

Thanks for the comments guys. I feel like the guy from 12 Angry Men…alright, im convinced…i’ll give it a go! Final question though, i promise! :wink: With regards to the other sets, you just simply ramp up correct?

Like if your final set of the 5rm week is 250, after warmup you could just do a couple sets like 185X5, 210X5, 230X5, then the 250 set? Nothing particular you’re supposed to follow?

168

[quote]Skull_Crusher wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys. I feel like the guy from 12 Angry Men…alright, im convinced…i’ll give it a go! Final question though, i promise! :wink:

With regards to the other sets, you just simply ramp up correct? Like if your final set of the 5rm week is 250, after warmup you could just do a couple sets like 185X5, 210X5, 230X5, then the 250 set? Nothing particular you’re supposed to follow?[/quote]

Great movie!

the week/wave of 5’s, you do

Wave 1
75% x 5
80% x 5
85% x 5

So the ramp up (after warm-up) is calculated/intentional, not just a guess

169

[quote]malonetd wrote:
Hey guys, should I only do this program for 1 lift each day, but as part of a 6 day a week program? That way I can do one full cycle in two week? What do you guys think about skipping the deload in this type of set up? I would like to get through 9 cycles in six weeks if possible. Thanks.

Oh, and, it doesn’t really matter what anyone says or what advice I get, I’m going to do it my way anyway.[/quote]

Your last sentence pretty much sums it up … but I think I might skip the deload anyway.

170

[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
Skull_Crusher wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys. I feel like the guy from 12 Angry Men…alright, im convinced…i’ll give it a go! Final question though, i promise! :wink:

With regards to the other sets, you just simply ramp up correct? Like if your final set of the 5rm week is 250, after warmup you could just do a couple sets like 185X5, 210X5, 230X5, then the 250 set? Nothing particular you’re supposed to follow?

Great movie!

the week/wave of 5’s, you do

Wave 1
75% x 5
80% x 5
85% x 5

So the ramp up (after warm-up) is calculated/intentional, not just a guess[/quote]

Oh crap, just when i think im ready to go…haha. I knew the final set was specific (85% on week 1, 90 on week 2, 95 on week 3) but didnt know the other sets in each workout were specific too. I like that, the less thinking on my part the better! lol

Is it always just a 5% jump?

Like Week 2:

80% x 3
85% x 3
90% x 3 (or more)

and Week 3:

85% x 1
90% x 1
95% x 1 (or more)

Sorry if this stuff was pointed out already…i really did try to read the thread before i started asking questions (ok, so admittedly i may have scanned through some parts ;))I see NateDogg has some percentages posted on this page, but im still not sure whats going on in each workout.

171

[quote]Skull_Crusher wrote:
TheDudeAbides wrote:
Skull_Crusher wrote:
Thanks for the comments guys. I feel like the guy from 12 Angry Men…alright, im convinced…i’ll give it a go! Final question though, i promise! :wink:

With regards to the other sets, you just simply ramp up correct? Like if your final set of the 5rm week is 250, after warmup you could just do a couple sets like 185X5, 210X5, 230X5, then the 250 set? Nothing particular you’re supposed to follow?

Great movie!

the week/wave of 5’s, you do

Wave 1
75% x 5
80% x 5
85% x 5

So the ramp up (after warm-up) is calculated/intentional, not just a guess

Oh crap, just when i think im ready to go…haha. I knew the final set was specific (85% on week 1, 90 on week 2, 95 on week 3) but didnt know the other sets in each workout were specific too. I like that, the less thinking on my part the better! lol

Is it always just a 5% jump?

Like Week 2:

80% x 3
85% x 3
90% x 3 (or more)

and Week 3:

85% x 1
90% x 1
95% x 1 (or more)

Sorry if this stuff was pointed out already…i really did try to read the thread before i started asking questions (ok, so admittedly i may have scanned through some parts ;))I see NateDogg has some percentages posted on this page, but im still not sure whats going on in each workout.

[/quote]

For week 3 is:
75% x5
85% x3
95% x1

172

there is 2 options:
Variation 1

Wave 1

75% x 5
80% x 5
85% x 5

Wave 2

80% x 3
85% x 3
90% x 3

Wave 3

75% x 5
85% x 3
95% x 1

Wave 4 (Deload)

60% x 5
65% x 5
70% x 5

2nd:
Variation 2 - This one involves a little less volume on the first two
weeks.
Wave 1

65% x 5
75% x 5
85% x 5

Wave 2

70% x 3
80% x 3
90% x 3

Wave 3

75% x 5
85% x 3
95% x 1

Wave 4 (Deload

60% x 5
65% x 5
70% x 5

173

Out of respect for Jim, maybe we shouldn’t post up large parts of his book.

174

[quote]MikeyKBiatch wrote:
Out of respect for Jim, maybe we shouldn’t post up large parts of his book.[/quote]

sort of, but even he gives out plenty of information to get you started. Just read the Q and A at Elite

http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=68101&tid=

175

Planning my next cycle i came up with this routine after ready some stuff from Shelby Starnes,Phillip at bad attitude gym and other on the internet…lets call it powerbuilding just for fun…(not taking myself seriously here, i will never compete in both sports as not strong enough and im natural so no bodybuilding but i like to push some iron and see my progress…) so here the 5/3/1 Crankman version:

The Plan:(kind of powerbuilding)

Bench/Chest & Back dominant/Secondary Arms

  1. Bench Press 5/3/1
  2. Bench press 5x10 @ 50%
    3A) Rowing movement 3x8-12
    3B) Rear delt movement 3x8-12
  3. Shrugging movement 3x8-12
    5A) Biceps 3x8-12
    5B) Triceps Pushdown variations 3x15-25
    Feel free to comment!

Deadlift/Hamstring dominant/Secondary Calf & Abs

  1. Deadlift 5/3/1
  2. Romanian Deadlift 3x8-10
  3. Good Morning 3x8-12
  4. Calf raise: 4 x 5 (5 seconds down, 5 seconds pause at bottom)
  5. Abs

Push Press/Shoulder & Back dominant/Secondary Arms

  1. Push Press 5/3/1
  2. Seated DB Press or DB Incline Press 5x10 @ 50%
    3A) Pulling movement 3x8-12
    3B) Rear delt movement 3x8-12
  3. Shrugging movement 3x8-12
    5A) Biceps 3x8-12
    5B) Triceps Pushdown variations 3x15-25

Squat/Quadricep dominant/Secondary Calf & Abs
1)Squat: 5/3/1 method
2)Leg Press or Hack Squat 2-3 x 8-20
3)Leg Extension or Lunge variation 2-3 x 8-20
4)Calf raise - 3 x 10-10-10 (triple drop)
5)Abs

Did A Update, Thanks to Nate!!

176

That seems pretty good overall. You’ll have to do it to see if it’s too much or not, as you have a pretty good amount of exercises each day.

Also, I prefer to separate my horizontal pulling exercises (rows) from my vertical pulling exercises (chins/pulldowns) on upper body days.

So on your bench day, you might want to keep the rows but rather than doing the chins, use upper back exercises like rear delt raises, face pulls, cuban presses or dumbbell power cleans.

Then keep the pulldowns/chins on your push press day and also perform the side laterals but skip the rows that day since you do them on your bench day.

For your leg days, rather than performing leg curls twice, I would go ahead and use leg curls one day and something else on the other day (RDL’s, good mornings, GHR’s, band good mornings, SHELC, etc.).

177

Looks good crankMAN.

178

I just completed my fourth wave and I start my fifth wave Monday. This is my last wave before NASA Natural Nationals.

My fourth 5/3/1 week stats are:

Squat 440 x 5 reps
Bench 330 x 6 reps (paused)
Deadlift 570 x 5 reps

179

Hey Phil,
I just wanted to say that I’ve read your progress over at elite and your results at the last NASA meet really inspired me. In fact, my training partner and I are now planning to compete in a raw meet at the end of May.

Currently, we’re in the middle of Eric Cressey’s “Maximum Strength” program and are loving it. Hitting PR’s all the time. Anyway, when we finish we’ll have a little over 12 weeks to get ready for the meet. We’re thinking of using the 5/3/1 method to get ready.

Since you’ve used this method before your NASA meet, would you recommend this? 12 weeks would give us 3 cycles of the program. Is that enough to see a substantial increase in our totals? If so, would you do anything differently than the way it is outlined since we are trying to peak?

Thanks in advance. I’d really love to hear your input. Keep up the great work and good luck at the nationals!

180

Hey Warrior,

Thanks for the kind words and I am glad my results have inspired you.

I have not seen Cressey’s “Maximum Strength” program, but I am sure it has to be good. I like Cressey’s articles and he really knows his stuff.

I am confident that you would get good results from the 5/3/1 program. The program works great and I have a couple guys from our team on the program and they are doing well on the program and loving it.

You have just the right amount of time to peak for your meet. What I recommend and this is exactly the way I do it, is to do your deload week and then the week of the meet take off completely. My last deload week before the meet I didn’t deadlift. This worked great for me. I completed two waves training for NASA Unequipped Nationals. I hit a 28lbs PR on my deadlift. I tied my best raw squat, but weight 20lbs less and squatting a lot deeper. My bench wasn’t a PR, but a 22lbs increase over the meet prior to this.

Two big tips I can give you and these two things will determine your success.

1.) Be conservative with your starting percentages. Jim says to start with 90% of your 1 rep max. I started with 85% of my meet lifts. My heaviest deadlift in the gym prior to that NASA meet was 550lbs for 6 reps and I pulled 678lbs at the meet. You can’t go wrong by starting a little light, but you can by going too heavy.

2.) Do military presses, or what else I found that works well is steep incline bench presses. We do them with dumbbells at a 45 degree incline. By not working my shoulders hard enough, it held me back on my bench at the NASA meet.

My bench day consists of this:

Bench press with a pause following the 5/3/1 percentages
Close Grip Bench Press for 3 sets of 8-10 reps
45 degree dumbbell incline bench press for 3 sets of 8-10 reps
Back
Rear delts
Biceps

[quote]Warrior Spirit wrote:
Hey Phil,
I just wanted to say that I’ve read your progress over at elite and your results at the last NASA meet really inspired me. In fact, my training partner and I are now planning to compete in a raw meet at the end of May.

Currently, we’re in the middle of Eric Cressey’s “Maximum Strength” program and are loving it. Hitting PR’s all the time. Anyway, when we finish we’ll have a little over 12 weeks to get ready for the meet. We’re thinking of using the 5/3/1 method to get ready.

Since you’ve used this method before your NASA meet, would you recommend this? 12 weeks would give us 3 cycles of the program. Is that enough to see a substantial increase in our totals? If so, would you do anything differently than the way it is outlined since we are trying to peak?

Thanks in advance. I’d really love to hear your input. Keep up the great work and good luck at the nationals![/quote]