[quote]Firebrat wrote:
Thanks for your advice guys,
I’m dropping the shrugs completely, threw out the barbell rows and RDL and replaced those with kroc rows and lunges.
That means my workout will look like this:
Main - Millitary (5/3/1)
Acc. - Chins
Acc. - Dips
Main - Deadlift(5/3/1)
Acc. - Leg press
Acc. - Good mornings
Acc. - Abs
Main - Bench press(5/3/1)
Acc. - Kroc row
Acc. - Close grip bench press
Main - Squat(5/3/1)
Acc. - Squat 5x10 (feel that I need to work on form)
Acc. - Lunges
Acc. - Abs
Fact is that I really enjoy working out, and always had a tendency to do too much work because of it.
I do have a question for you veterans out there - what is the reasoning behind the high reps in some of these accessory movements (like 20-25 reps for kroc rows)? I understand that high reps work really well if you are on steroids, but all I’ve ever read on the subject of development of strengt say that 20+ reps is mostly endurance and very little strenght work.
Short version - what would I gain by doing that many reps?
Cheers
[/quote]
Maybe I’m missing something, but who told you to do 20+ reps?
I never knew they worked so well for guys on steroids tho… :s
Have you used chalk? Before I started using it, I thought it was just my grip strength and was only able to go up to a certain weight, the chalk completely eliminated that problem, even for sets of heavy singles/doubles or for whatever else (farmer’s, rows, etc.).
[quote]scotthenry525 wrote:
HI Jim,
Im about to start the 5/3/1 program and was reading your take on the use of straps. I would say that there is probably a good 60kg difference between my max deadlift with and without straps, in this case, is it really likely that my grip strength will never catch up with my leg/hip strength and thus should I just continue to use straps?
here’s my deadlift set. is this excessive back round? should i have stopped sooner?
This is fairly normal back rounding for real deadlifting. Not text book pulling if you are a mother of 2 and have a fupa. Or if you are in the business of writing about lifting but don’t have any callouses.
Is it the safest form? No. But this is what 100% of people do in powerlifting. I’m not saying it is right, I’m just telling you the truth.[/quote]
thanks mr jimmers
should i continue to get at it like this until i start looking like a camel, then back off? i want to prevent any high risk stupidity while continuing to lift hard.
Obviously I’m not Jim, so take my advice for what it’s worth…
I think it’d be a REALLY bad idea to pull without straps just for the sake of working your grip. If your grip is that far behind you need to train it directly and not have your deadlifting suffer as a result.
Things like farmers walks, kroc rows without straps and double overhand shrugs without straps should probably form the bulk of your assistance work. I’d pull the deadlifts as high as you can double overhand without straps, then swtich to mixed, and finally put on straps when you need them.
From my own POV, I had a similar problem a couple of years ago. Put in a 4th day where I pretty much just started with farmers walks around the gym with 110lb 'bells (soon out grew em), then did kroc rows in the 20-25 rep range and finally finished off with double overhand shrugs. Haven’t dropped a deadlift since. All I do now is the odd set of double overhand shrugs when I feel my grip’s starting to weaken.
I’ve started to train with straps again because I’m pulling on crappy smooth commercial gym bars and I don’t want my deadlifting to suffer. When I get my hands on a powerbar I can still hold onto anything I get off the floor.
[/quote]
My grip is also holding back my deadlift too, at least 30lbs. One month ago (when i tested my max last time) i added high rep DB rows, DB shrugs and stoped using straps for stiff deads. Now i’m in the second cycle of DL, after reseting my max and i hope my grip catches up while i increase the weight in the next cycles. So its good to hear that you had sucess using a similar approach, i hope it works for me too.
I know what you are talking about these smooth commercial gym bars, i had this same problem in the gym i used to train last year. How can a gym spend a lot with new machines, treadmills etc… and not have the basics such decent bars and heavy dumbells?
Im about to start the 5/3/1 program and was reading your take on the use of straps. I would say that there is probably a good 60kg difference between my max deadlift with and without straps, in this case, is it really likely that my grip strength will never catch up with my leg/hip strength and thus should I just continue to use straps?
Many thanks
Scott[/quote]
Grip strength also used to hold me back. I stopped using straps for anything for awhile and that really helped me out. Continuing to use straps will only exacerbate the problem. Do your deadlift without straps and get as far as you can. Add in grip work as an accessory along with some other low back work and you will get the best of all 3 worlds. Truthfully, a deadlift isn’t a deadlift if you are using straps.
unless you competing in strongman For me heavy rack pulls above the knee fixed any and all grip problems I had for my deadlift. I know a lot of people say kroc rows/never use straps etc and so forth but what are those things going to do that a heavy rack pull wont? I mean holding 600 pounds for 5 seconds will stress your grip a lil more than repping a 100 pound dumbbell I believe. Now I like to train a lot of grip aspects with plate pinches, grippers, levering etc, so I end up using straps on other lifts just because my hands get so sore.
[quote]Carnage wrote:
Bump. No way this is going to be on the second page.[/quote]
x2. Just to continue the thread (not that it needs my help, anyway:), I’m starting my third wave, and seen that I hit 9 reps on squat and 6 on DL in the 5-3-1 week, I decided to add 20lbs to both, and see what happens.
For assistance, has anybody tried a Doggcrap-like approach (one set to failure in 8-12 reps range, then two rest-pause set)? Just to change from BBB…I’ll do it and tell you how it works.
[quote]fabiop wrote:
For assistance, has anybody tried a Doggcrap-like approach (one set to failure in 8-12 reps range, then two rest-pause set)? Just to change from BBB…I’ll do it and tell you how it works.
[/quote]
While I don’t necessarily think this is a great idea, depending on the weight you are using, I admire the last part of your post – the part I bolded. I wish more people would take this approach.
[quote]fabiop wrote:
Carnage wrote:
Bump. No way this is going to be on the second page.
x2. Just to continue the thread (not that it needs my help, anyway:), I’m starting my third wave, and seen that I hit 9 reps on squat and 6 on DL in the 5-3-1 week, I decided to add 20lbs to both, and see what happens.
For assistance, has anybody tried a Doggcrap-like approach (one set to failure in 8-12 reps range, then two rest-pause set)? Just to change from BBB…I’ll do it and tell you how it works.
[/quote]
I did that for 2 months or so, for a few upper body exercises. I feel it accelerated my progress in the exercises i used, but this method started to get too draining in the end of the 2nd cycle, so i came back too regular sets. But this stuff is something i will throw in the future for one cycle or maybe two and then go back to regular sets.
One thing i like in the 5/3/1 program is that you can experiment with lots of stuff for assistance (and have fun doing so) while keeping consistent with the long term plan in the core lifts.
[quote]Sagat wrote:
fabiop wrote:
Carnage wrote:
Bump. No way this is going to be on the second page.
x2. Just to continue the thread (not that it needs my help, anyway:), I’m starting my third wave, and seen that I hit 9 reps on squat and 6 on DL in the 5-3-1 week, I decided to add 20lbs to both, and see what happens.
For assistance, has anybody tried a Doggcrap-like approach (one set to failure in 8-12 reps range, then two rest-pause set)? Just to change from BBB…I’ll do it and tell you how it works.
I did that for 2 months or so, for a few upper body exercises. I feel it accelerated my progress in the exercises i used, but this method started to get too draining in the end of the 2nd cycle, so i came back too regular sets. But this stuff is something i will throw in the future for one cycle or maybe two and then go back to regular sets.
One thing i like in the 5/3/1 program is that you can experiment with lots of stuff for assistance (and have fun doing so) while keeping consistent with the long term plan in the core lifts.
[/quote]
You could try deloading the assistance along with the main excercise if you didn’t.
I finished my second wave. I think everything went great, I got from 6 to 4 reps on my last sets which seems about right for me - even though I must admit that in a few of the las sets in all waves, I did a little bit of “rest-pause” in which I would let go or set down the bar, “reset” and bust out one or two more reps; so I’m thinking of maybe keeping the same maxes for this coming wave as opposed of adding the 5/10 lbs. to see if I can improve with all out straight sets. i’ll see how it feels during the first wave I guess…
One thing i like in the 5/3/1 program is that you can experiment with lots of stuff for assistance (and have fun doing so) while keeping consistent with the long term plan in the core lifts.
[/quote]
Fully agree, man! I think it’s great for all those who can’t stick long enough with the same program. I’ll try Doggcrap-like (deloading on the fourth week), and if it gets too draining (even if I’m not that strong…like 60lbs DB bench press for 12 reps…), I’ll get back to something “normal”
Ps: @MALONETD: it’s the only approach I know…I’m that dumb: I need to try and see if it works
The further I get into this program, the more I wished I lowered my starting numbers.
People forget this is supposed to be run for a while…its not a “run it for 6 weeks and gain X amount on your lifts”.
If you run it right, you can progress for months
I was considering testing my numbers next wave and calculating my numbers off that…but the more time I spend…I don’t want to do it. I want to let this program run its course and let the numbers build up.
Dont rush it guys.
Sit down with a calculator, is knocking 40lbs of your squat a big deal, when you could potentially put 100lbs on that squat over a year? No. But I will tell you what sucks. Messing with something that works, and ruining the end result.
I am not saying don’t experiment, just look at the bigger picture. Look at what has worked for others.
Why mess up something that works?
[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
I finished my second wave. I think everything went great, I got from 6 to 4 reps on my last sets which seems about right for me - even though I must admit that in a few of the las sets in all waves, I did a little bit of “rest-pause” in which I would let go or set down the bar, “reset” and bust out one or two more reps; so I’m thinking of maybe keeping the same maxes for this coming wave as opposed of adding the 5/10 lbs. to see if I can improve with all out straight sets. i’ll see how it feels during the first wave I guess…[/quote]
So keep the weights and try to beat your previous reps? I’ve been doing that the last couple cycles with great success.
[quote]TheDudeAbides wrote:
m1sf1t wrote:
I finished my second wave. I think everything went great, I got from 6 to 4 reps on my last sets which seems about right for me - even though I must admit that in a few of the las sets in all waves, I did a little bit of “rest-pause” in which I would let go or set down the bar, “reset” and bust out one or two more reps; so I’m thinking of maybe keeping the same maxes for this coming wave as opposed of adding the 5/10 lbs. to see if I can improve with all out straight sets. i’ll see how it feels during the first wave I guess…
So keep the weights and try to beat your previous reps? I’ve been doing that the last couple cycles with great success. [/quote]
I’ve done what TheDudeAbides has done. I make slower progress on my shoulders and chest vs. legs and back. It works, just stick with it.
[quote]Lifty McWeights wrote:
Hey Jim (or anyone else who cares to reply)-
I’m now at the end of week 1 of my second 4-week cycle of 531. Really enjoying it and making gains so far.
Here’s my question- i’m goingon vacation for a week starting July 4. Should i finish my second cycle, including the deload week, and do the first 2 weeks of a third cycle before going away, or should i not do the deload this cycle, and just go right into another cycle, so i could complete all three weeks before going away?
hope this makes sense. Basically, i have 6 weeks, and can either do 4 weeks 531 + 2 weeks 531, or 2 cycles of 3 weeks 531, with no deload between.
[quote]Firebrat wrote:
Thanks for your advice guys,
I’m dropping the shrugs completely, threw out the barbell rows and RDL and replaced those with kroc rows and lunges.
That means my workout will look like this:
Main - Millitary (5/3/1)
Acc. - Chins
Acc. - Dips
Main - Deadlift(5/3/1)
Acc. - Leg press
Acc. - Good mornings
Acc. - Abs
Main - Bench press(5/3/1)
Acc. - Kroc row
Acc. - Close grip bench press
Main - Squat(5/3/1)
Acc. - Squat 5x10 (feel that I need to work on form)
Acc. - Lunges
Acc. - Abs
Fact is that I really enjoy working out, and always had a tendency to do too much work because of it.
I do have a question for you veterans out there - what is the reasoning behind the high reps in some of these accessory movements (like 20-25 reps for kroc rows)? I understand that high reps work really well if you are on steroids, but all I’ve ever read on the subject of development of strengt say that 20+ reps is mostly endurance and very little strenght work.
Short version - what would I gain by doing that many reps?
Cheers
[/quote]
Short answer - strength. Don’t get duped - the lower rep ranges are fine but you have to pick your battles i.e. you can’t make every lift a priority. There are a lot of other reasons to but the whole “high reps and steroids thing” comment only deserves one. Sorry man.
For me heavy rack pulls above the knee fixed any and all grip problems I had for my deadlift. I know a lot of people say kroc rows/never use straps etc and so forth but what are those things going to do that a heavy rack pull wont? I mean holding 600 pounds for 5 seconds will stress your grip a lil more than repping a 100 pound dumbbell I believe. Now I like to train a lot of grip aspects with plate pinches, grippers, levering etc, so I end up using straps on other lifts just because my hands get so sore.