Wendler 5/3/1 Program

Training Powerlifting
781

[quote]Hanley wrote:

Thanks Jim, that’s exactly the sort of response I was looking for.

You probabaly don’t need to read past here, but basically is this recommendation based off the fact the beginner lifter isn’t going to burn himself out as easily working multiple big movements in a session as opposed to muscles?

Any way to gauge this activation? Like my hamstrings are tender, after doing my assistance work yesterday (SLDL’s off a plate 5x10 and GM’s 3x15) but they’re not crippled, and should be fine by the time it comes to squat on Friday. Sound about right?

[/quote]

Hanley, kind of…but it’s hard for a beginner to focus on his hamstrings during a GM especially when he doesn’t know what his hamstrings do, where they are, and how to really manipulate the movement to do so. So I just ask them to use good form and time will take care of the rest.

Your assistance work sounds fine - remember that everything has to fit together. Assistance work needs to compliment your training not take away from it.

782

Thanks for the response Jim and Hanley.

I appreciate the progession given. The only reason I really care about doing leg raises is because I have never done one. And that is just lame. I can find plenty of other lifts to supplement them, just more of an interest thing.

Good catch on the agnostic thing Hanley. Im an idiot.

783

I completed the first cycle and the de-load:

Everything went great overall, In average, I got 7-9 on the last sets, which might not be as many as other people have gotten, but I think it’s about right for me, without starting too light. I set up progression parameters to my assistance lifts (3x10-12) by adding one extra rep on wave 2, then an extra set for wave 3 (4X10-12), I’m keeping everything pretty much the same for the second cycle, starting from where I left off which will leave me at 5X10 at the end before I start again with more weight or I change the exercises altogether. For the main lifts, I’m adding either 5 or 10 lbs to each and going from there.

For the de-load part, I took pretty much the whole week off, I had family in town so I decided to just have a good time and forget about training. Did I feel guilty? yes, but not concerned. Well, now that I started the second cycle, it seems like I definitely lost the momentum I had going on, so far I’ve done my bench and deadlift days and in both, I struggled big time to get the five reps on my last sets with the 5/10 lb increments, let alone achieving any extra reps. So far I’m just taking it as “nothing but 2 bad sessions” and I will just continue and re-evaluate at the end of this cycle, but I definitely think that next time I will keep on with the de-load week for the main lifts and some complexes for energy systems…

784

[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
I completed the first cycle and the de-load:

Everything went great overall, In average, I got 7-9 on the last sets, which might not be as many as other people have gotten, but I think it’s about right for me, without starting too light. I set up progression parameters to my assistance lifts (3x10-12) by adding one extra rep on wave 2, then an extra set for wave 3 (4X10-12), I’m keeping everything pretty much the same for the second cycle, starting from where I left off which will leave me at 5X10 at the end before I start again with more weight or I change the exercises altogether. For the main lifts, I’m adding either 5 or 10 lbs to each and going from there.

For the de-load part, I took pretty much the whole week off, I had family in town so I decided to just have a good time and forget about training. Did I feel guilty? yes, but not concerned. Well, now that I started the second cycle, it seems like I definitely lost the momentum I had going on, so far I’ve done my bench and deadlift days and in both, I struggled big time to get the five reps on my last sets with the 5/10 lb increments, let alone achieving any extra reps. So far I’m just taking it as “nothing but 2 bad sessions” and I will just continue and re-evaluate at the end of this cycle, but I definitely think that next time I will keep on with the de-load week for the main lifts and some complexes for energy systems…
[/quote]

I wouldnt worry too much about it. Most times, I dont really do shit during the deloads. Sometimes I dont even make it to the gym, and if I do, its nothing most would consider constructive training. That though, is the basis for the deload…do what you eed to do to get ready for the next cycle.

Jason

785

Jason, I am interested about you going raw in the squat to reach your 1000lb squat.

Do you have a goal in the raw squat that you want to achieve before you get back in gear?

Was this a recommendation made by others?

786

[quote]JPeggEFS wrote:

I wouldnt worry too much about it. Most times, I dont really do shit during the deloads. Sometimes I dont even make it to the gym, and if I do, its nothing most would consider constructive training. That though, is the basis for the deload…do what you eed to do to get ready for the next cycle.

Jason
[/quote]

Thanks Jason, that’s what I figured. I’m not going to think much of it, continue with this cycle and re-evaluate before the beginning of the first one…

787

Is true that…you should only perform 1 to 5 reps for maximal/limit strength and 6 to 12 reps for size???

788

I just finished my first cycle as well.Didnt do as well as you guys in regards to the last set.

My 3 main lifts were log strict press(one clean),weighted pullup and 3’ deficit deadlift.

Wk 1(3x5)
PU-10 reps
OHP-10 reps
DL-5 reps

Wk 2(3x3)
PU-7 reps
OHP-9 reps
DL-5 reps

Wk 3(5-3-1)
PU-7 reps
OHP-7 reps
DL-4 reps

As you can see,my DL performance really sucked compared to the upper body lifts…guess that is because I am used to one top set followed by 2 backoff sets.It seems that the two work sets before the top set took a fair lot out of me even though they were relatively light.

Taking a 5 day complete layoff till next week(instead of a deload). Should I still add 10lb to my new projected max for DL?

789

[quote]Hanley wrote:

That’s what I was getting at… the pulldown abs can be hard to make work tho. You really need to play about with them. Hanging leg raises are simple… make your fucking feet touch the bar. No room for screwing up there really!!
[/quote]

This really is over thinking, but there is a progression for other exercises as well - from machine to body weight.

push-downs - dips
pull-downs - pull-ups
pull-down abs - leg raises

maybe pointless/obvious, but it was something I was pondering

790

[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
JPeggEFS wrote:

I wouldnt worry too much about it. Most times, I dont really do shit during the deloads. Sometimes I dont even make it to the gym, and if I do, its nothing most would consider constructive training. That though, is the basis for the deload…do what you eed to do to get ready for the next cycle.

Jason

Thanks Jason, that’s what I figured. I’m not going to think much of it, continue with this cycle and re-evaluate before the beginning of the first one…

[/quote]

I think there is more of a mental block for me when I come back off the deload. BTW I don’t do anything for the deload.

The weights usually seem (head games) heavy the first wave then I’m back in the groove by the second and third wave.

791

[quote]pal60 wrote:
Is true that…you should only perform 1 to 5 reps for maximal/limit strength and 6 to 12 reps for size???[/quote]

If you work on getting strong, and eating right, you will get bigger. I dont worry about shit like that, but you could probably find a study somewhere that would tell you thats right. All I worry about is getting stronger. Do you think a chest, shoulders, and triceps of a guy that can bench 500 will be bigger than a guy that can bench 275?

Jason

792

[quote]Doenitz79 wrote:
I just finished my first cycle as well.Didnt do as well as you guys in regards to the last set.

My 3 main lifts were log strict press(one clean),weighted pullup and 3’ deficit deadlift.

Wk 1(3x5)
PU-10 reps
OHP-10 reps
DL-5 reps

Wk 2(3x3)
PU-7 reps
OHP-9 reps
DL-5 reps

Wk 3(5-3-1)
PU-7 reps
OHP-7 reps
DL-4 reps

As you can see,my DL performance really sucked compared to the upper body lifts…guess that is because I am used to one top set followed by 2 backoff sets.It seems that the two work sets before the top set took a fair lot out of me even though they were relatively light.

Taking a 5 day complete layoff till next week(instead of a deload). Should I still add 10lb to my new projected max for DL?
[/quote]

What % of jumps where you using 5 or 10? It looks to me like your not used to high rep deads. This happened to me my first two waves I got 5-6 each week. Didn’t matter if it was 85, 90, or 95%. It took awhile for my body to get used to it. Personally I would also just do deads from the floor not deficit deads.

793

[quote]Kalle wrote:

What % of jumps where you using 5 or 10? It looks to me like your not used to high rep deads. This happened to me my first two waves I got 5-6 each week. Didn’t matter if it was 85, 90, or 95%. It took awhile for my body to get used to it. Personally I would also just do deads from the floor not deficit deads. [/quote]

For the first week,I used 5% and found it really hard.The next week,I decided to use 10% and found it slightly better.

My max DL actually dropped while doing this(if you use the max calculator given in the e-book)…although there were steady improvements in week 2 and 3 compared to the 1st.

Yes,I think I suck in higher reps DLing.Another possibility is that the heavy events especially the yoke are taking a toll…since I am more of a back dominant DLer.

Still,I would run this program for at least 2 more cycles.

794

I want to use this program for size. Thinking of using the 4 5-3-1 exercises, as well as a bunch of assistance compounds. Thing is, I also want to put in side raises, calf work and curls. If anyone else has done 5/3/1 with size and symmetry in mind, how did you put these in?

Also, sorry if this has been brought up before, but I can’t find the answer to this: is alternating things with the 5-3-1 exercises fine? e.g. curls or upright rows with military press, nothing too strenuous.

G

795

[quote]G87 wrote:
I want to use this program for size. Thinking of using the 4 5-3-1 exercises, as well as a bunch of assistance compounds. Thing is, I also want to put in side raises, calf work and curls. If anyone else has done 5/3/1 with size and symmetry in mind, how did you put these in?

Also, sorry if this has been brought up before, but I can’t find the answer to this: is alternating things with the 5-3-1 exercises fine? e.g. curls or upright rows with military press, nothing too strenuous.

G[/quote]

While my main goal is strength, i include some of these assistance exercises in my routine. I try to work both “movements” and “muscles” in assistance. For example: after push press i will work up to a hard set on DB presses and weighted pullups trying to beat last week, then i will do 2 sets of laterals and hammer pulldowns focusing on the muscle and getting an extra volume(but these are the first thing i will cut if time or energy are lacking).

Looks like this:
Push Press 5/3/1
A1-DB Press
A2-Weighetd Pullup
B1-Lateral Raise
B2-Hammer Pulldown
C1-Pushdown
C2-DB Curls (next cycle i will try doing only bis one day and tris on the other)
This whole workout takes 50 min or so.

Calves are done in the end of squat and dead workouts.

Keep in mind that i’m not giving advice or anything (there are a lot of people more qualified to do this here)i’m just telling what i found that is working for me and i enjoy doing.

796

[quote]DCR wrote:
Jason, I am interested about you going raw in the squat to reach your 1000lb squat.

Do you have a goal in the raw squat that you want to achieve before you get back in gear?

Was this a recommendation made by others?[/quote]

Basically, it accomplishes a few things. It allows me to add some size to my quads, which are so small they could almost be tris. Jim will confirm this. The strength is there, but the size isn’t. This tightens the gear as well. It also lets me get stronger in parts of the ROM that the gear usually handles, ie. out of the hole.

When I miss, it is about a quarter of the way up. Hoping that this helps me be able to get through this as well. I also want to be strong. Period. I dont want to be that guy that does 1000 and cant squat 700 raw. It is dumb to me, but there are surprisingly many guys out there who are this way.

As for a raw squat goal, I would like to someday go 800 plus. I realize how lofty this is, but why train for something normal?

Jason

797

[quote]JPeggEFS wrote:
DCR wrote:
Jason, I am interested about you going raw in the squat to reach your 1000lb squat.

Do you have a goal in the raw squat that you want to achieve before you get back in gear?

Was this a recommendation made by others?

Basically, it accomplishes a few things. It allows me to add some size to my quads, which are so small they could almost be tris. JIm will confirm this. The strength is there, but the size isn’t. This tightens the gear as well. It also lets me get stronger in parts of the ROM that the gear usually handles, ie. out of the hole. When I miss, it is about a quarter of the way up. Hoping that this helps me be able to get through this as well. I also want to be strong. Period. I dont want to be that guy that does 1000 and cant squat 700 raw. It is dumb to me, but there are surprisingly many guys out there who are this way.

As for a raw squat goal, I would like to someday go 800 plus. I realize how lofty this is, but why train for something normal?

Jason

[/quote]

Forgot to add that Jim and Matt Wenning both recommended it to me. 2 guys who know a bit about the squat.

Jason

798

[quote]G87 wrote:
I want to use this program for size. Thinking of using the 4 5-3-1 exercises, as well as a bunch of assistance compounds. Thing is, I also want to put in side raises, calf work and curls. If anyone else has done 5/3/1 with size and symmetry in mind, how did you put these in?

Also, sorry if this has been brought up before, but I can’t find the answer to this: is alternating things with the 5-3-1 exercises fine? e.g. curls or upright rows with military press, nothing too strenuous.

G[/quote]

There is no doubt that you can gain size on 5/3/1 but as a by product of getting stronger. You can choose any assistance exercises you want but they should be geared toward improving the 4 main lifts. If they don’t, then don’t do them.

As far as alternating exercises in with the main exercises, I don’t do it but if doing so is improving your performance on the main lifts then why not.

This program is really very simple and effective. There is no need to tinker with it. When you do at some point it ceases to be what it started out as. Just do the work and don’t over think it.

Pat

799

[quote]G87 wrote:
I want to use this program for size. Thinking of using the 4 5-3-1 exercises, as well as a bunch of assistance compounds. Thing is, I also want to put in side raises, calf work and curls. If anyone else has done 5/3/1 with size and symmetry in mind, how did you put these in?

Also, sorry if this has been brought up before, but I can’t find the answer to this: is alternating things with the 5-3-1 exercises fine? e.g. curls or upright rows with military press, nothing too strenuous.

G[/quote]

I would suggest buying both the 5/3/1 http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=370&pid=2976

AND the Three Days a Week training manual http://www.flexcart.com/members/elitefts/default.asp?m=PD&cid=370&pid=2795

Three Days a Week has a Bodybuilder template for accessory work that you would probably like.

800

[quote]Hanley wrote:
Jim Wendler wrote:
Hanley wrote:
Jim,

When talking about good mornings in your book you compared the use of heavy weights and movement focus with the use of lighter weight and “muscle” emphasis. Do you think it’s a good idea to treat the majority of the assistance work on a “muscle” and not movement based approach?

That is to say, if I do GM’s or SLDL’s, should I concentrate real hard on form and ROM and not so much on just moving the weight any way I can??

Thanks again for all the patient replies in the thread!

Hanely - this is a good question and I’ll try to make this as simple and as brief as possible.

For most people (i.e. beginners and just above beginners) they don’t know their bodies well enough to distinguish between the two. For example, you have the people who claim their chest gets pumped up from doing lat pulldowns or whatever. Or who can’t isolate their lats during a row movement and take out their biceps.

For these people, I say just do the movement and the muscle will come. That’s is the nature of the EVOLUTION of the lifter. You must pay this price and there is no short cut or way around it.

So no one ask. Just do the fucking work.

For a more advanced lifter (the one that can flex any muscle on command without actually moving), it is easy to separate between muscle and movement. So for these people, I would have them dictate why they are doing a lift and let that determine how they should perform it.

it has been my experience that you need to treat much of the accessory work (for an advanced lifter) as a “muscle” - but must use enough weight to get some activation.

For everyone else - do the sets/reps and complete the set 1-3 reps short of failure.

Thanks Jim, that’s exactly the sort of response I was looking for.

You probabaly don’t need to read past here, but basically is this recommendation based off the fact the beginner lifter isn’t going to burn himself out as easily working multiple big movements in a session as opposed to muscles?

Any way to gauge this activation? Like my hamstrings are tender, after doing my assistance work yesterday (SLDL’s off a plate 5x10 and GM’s 3x15) but they’re not crippled, and should be fine by the time it comes to squat on Friday. Sound about right?

[/quote]

Hanley - you are right on track. This is exactly the physical response you want to get.