Wendler 5/3/1 Program

Training Powerlifting
341

[quote]IronAbrams wrote:
Sagat wrote:
Finished my 3rd wave on front squats today, the weights AND the reps are increasing each wave:
Wave 1: 215(85%)x5, 230(90%)x3, 240(95%)x3
Wave 2: 225(85%)x6, 240(90%)x5, 250(95%)x5
Wave 3: 235(85%)x7, 250(90%)x6, 260(95%)x5
I think the BBB template is helping. I hope i can keep with this to reach a 315 front squat before i have to reset the max and start again.

Looks good!

Are you using BBB with front squat for 5x10 or back squat? I’m assuming front since that’s what you’re shooting for.[/quote]

Yes front squats for 5x10 (i dont plan doing back squats anytime soon). Actually i’ve been doing 4sets(sometimes 3) and alternating with sets of leg curl.

342

seems like this is a great program. looking forward to hearing some success stories

i’m probably going to try it in the future

343

Who is this program for?

OK I have read through the entire thread so far and my main question is how good is this program for people at different levels of development.

My definitions are:

Beginner - can add 5 or 10 lbs to a lift EVERY workout

Novice - can add 5lbs to lifts pretty much every workout

Intermediate - can only add 5 or 10lbs to a lift once per week, and sometimes, might take 2 weeks

Advanced - can only add 5 or 10lbs to a lift every month, or maybe 2 months

Advanced More - takes 3 months or more to get a 5lbs add to a lift

Elite - might take 6 months to get 5lbs add

OK my thoughts are this is aimed more at a person who is Advanced and above … this program seems to work around adding (or aiming to add) 5 or 10lbs to a lift every month with every cycle.

But somewhere someone mentioned it was good for beginners too, that Wendler found it was working well with them.

Has anyone found that it was good for a beginner or intermediate? Or perhaps for them it is inefficient since they could do other routines that are simpler and add weight far more often.

It seems to me that a good progression would be Starting Strength, then 5x5 e.g madcow or Starr, Texas method, then 5-3-1.

However if people have experience with it as a beginner / novice and have done really well, that is something to consider. Perhaps they are doing the routine and then each month they are adding 10 - 20 lbs per lift … instead of adding 5lbs per week for 3-4 weeks, getting it all at once.

Is that anyone’s experience?

Note I am not a beginner / novice otherwise I’d do it myself and report. What I am looking for is an adaptive routine, and adaptive ideas, that is, a routine that is simple but adapts based on your progress … this one has some really good points.

For example, it has set % for each day, but on the last set, going for as many reps as you can (but not to failure) - this is a good way to compensate for the fact that no cookie-cutter % scheme can perfectly prescribe the right number of reps / weight for a person on a particular day. It adapts. You do more reps if you can. Instead of only doing the prescribed number, which might not be enough to get a good workout because you were in need of more work.

It is also a very flexible skeleton allowing a lot of customisation through accessory work.

So, thoughts on this for beginner / novice? Has anyone made big jumps in monthly increases e.g 20-40 lbs per month ? (instead of adding 5-10 lbs per week like they would doing 5x5)

344

I would consider myself beginner/intermediate I guess you could say. I would recommend this program to anyone really, as the last set to failure makes adding a lot of weight a moot point imho. Although a few cycles I did add 20 pounds to my deadlift as opposed to ten as I deliberately started even lower then jim recommends for my deadlift max.

Also when you say an advanced lifter needs months to add 5 lbs to a lift, the whole point of the 5/3/1 is taking 90% of your training max(or even less) and working from there. So since you are working up to a previous max over time you will be adding weight either way each wave until you plateau(unless you miscalculated your maxes too high).

On another note, I had a shit workout the other day. This is my fifth wave and I was on my 3x3 for military press. I got to the last set and couldnt even do 1 rep. I was pissed as even though I know at some point ill have to knock the weights back down I was making such good gains I didnt think that would be for another few cycles. Well I figured Id finish out this cycle and then decide whether or not id recalculate my max on MP.

Well today I am doing my 5/3/1 for MP and come the last set where I am set to hit a single I end up hitting it for a triple! This was 5 pounds heavier then the weight I previously couldnt get off my shoulders on the 3x3 week. So I guess this is just a reminder to everyone that sometimes you will have bad lifting days, but you need to look at the big picture with your training. I guess I needed this myself as a reminder to not get too angry if I have a bad training session once in a while.

345

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Who is this program for?

OK I have read through the entire thread so far and my main question is how good is this program for people at different levels of development.

My definitions are:

Beginner - can add 5 or 10 lbs to a lift EVERY workout

Novice - can add 5lbs to lifts pretty much every workout

Intermediate - can only add 5 or 10lbs to a lift once per week, and sometimes, might take 2 weeks

Advanced - can only add 5 or 10lbs to a lift every month, or maybe 2 months

Advanced More - takes 3 months or more to get a 5lbs add to a lift

Elite - might take 6 months to get 5lbs add

OK my thoughts are this is aimed more at a person who is Advanced and above … this program seems to work around adding (or aiming to add) 5 or 10lbs to a lift every month with every cycle.

But somewhere someone mentioned it was good for beginners too, that Wendler found it was working well with them.

Has anyone found that it was good for a beginner or intermediate? Or perhaps for them it is inefficient since they could do other routines that are simpler and add weight far more often.

It seems to me that a good progression would be Starting Strength, then 5x5 e.g madcow or Starr, Texas method, then 5-3-1.

However if people have experience with it as a beginner / novice and have done really well, that is something to consider. Perhaps they are doing the routine and then each month they are adding 10 - 20 lbs per lift … instead of adding 5lbs per week for 3-4 weeks, getting it all at once.

Is that anyone’s experience?

Note I am not a beginner / novice otherwise I’d do it myself and report. What I am looking for is an adaptive routine, and adaptive ideas, that is, a routine that is simple but adapts based on your progress … this one has some really good points.

For example, it has set % for each day, but on the last set, going for as many reps as you can (but not to failure) - this is a good way to compensate for the fact that no cookie-cutter % scheme can perfectly prescribe the right number of reps / weight for a person on a particular day. It adapts. You do more reps if you can. Instead of only doing the prescribed number, which might not be enough to get a good workout because you were in need of more work.

It is also a very flexible skeleton allowing a lot of customisation through accessory work.

So, thoughts on this for beginner / novice? Has anyone made big jumps in monthly increases e.g 20-40 lbs per month ? (instead of adding 5-10 lbs per week like they would doing 5x5)

[/quote]

I understand what you are saying, but your definitions are somewhat unrealistic. Adding 20lbs a month is a lot, is a 240lb increase in one year, how many begginers/intermediates start a year squating 225 and squat 465 one year later?
IMHO, 5-10lbs a month is a good rate of progress if you keep doing the same exercises (rather than rotating exercises, where you do faster progress but for short periods and then work on other exercise). And dont forget that if possible you can do more reps on the last set, so one month you do 335x3 and the next you do 345x5.
Maybe the program isnt good for begginers because of they are not ready for low reps like this.

346

Based on Rippetoe’s work, I would say that his type of program is best for a beginner to intermediate, because they will progress faster (beginners can generally increase weight and recover from each workout and intermediates can generally progress weekly). You can do 5/3/1 with these groups, but I would wait until they are ready to proceed past the intermediate stage when more recovery time is needed.

Recommendations for intermediate:
http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/After_Starting_Strength

347

For those that don’t know me or my experience level, I will share with you my background and my experience with the 5/3/1 program.

I am a 43 year old drug free powerlifter. According to APF standards, I am an elite level powerlifter. In January I hit my raw elite total in the 275lbs class weighing 243.9lbs. I have been lifting off and on since the summer of 1980. I have competed in powerlifting for total of 10.5 years.

The first 5 years were from 1983 to 1988, I have been back powerlifting since September of 2003. My best geared lifts are squat 848lbs, bench press 523lbs, deadlift 722lbs, and total 2055lbs. My best raw lifts are squat 551lbs, bench press 402lbs, deadlift 705lbs and total 1658lbs.

Before starting the 5/3/1 program my best squat was 551lbs breaking parallel at a bodyweight of 260lbs and now I squat 551 to USAPL depth at a bodyweight of 243.9lbs.

My best raw bench before the 5/3/1 program was 385lbs at a bodyweight of 260lbs and at a bodyweight of 242lbs, now my raw bench is 402lbs at a bodyweight of 243.9lbs. My deadlift went from 650lbs to 705lbs. This was done over the course of 5 months/5 waves.

As you can see I have a lot of experience and have made some really good gains following this program. There really is no limit to what you can do on this program.

348

Hey Wylie I do know you but that is a great summary, although I think a bit of a typo there “at a bodyweight of 365lbs” lol unless you lost 100lbs???

Ryan 71 I’d agree I always recommend rippletoe’s works for beginners but I was curious if any absolute beginners were doing really well with 531 because someone briefly mentioned something.

Sagat my definitions are spot on, obviously you cannot continue to add 20lbs per month every month forever, but REAL beginners - people who can squat say 50lbs - add weight real fast until they stall, probably adding 20lbs per week for what 6 weeks? Before slowing down … I’d count that as a pre-beginner though, I guess. I certainly wouldn’t tell them to do this.

Do people add 10lbs per month or do people who get great results decide to add, say, 20lbs one month? or 15lbs? Is this what people are doing - seeing how a 4 week block goes then deciding on the next max?

e.g

1RM = 100
use 90% or 90

do the 4 weeks … did really well

decide that the new 1RM to use is 115
take 90% of that = 103.5

do the 4 weeks … etc

I guess my main concern is wondering if the system could fall short on rate of progression or on workload … but for workload, going for more reps on the last set takes care of that (and accessory work). And rate of progression, you know, it probably isn’t going to be out of whack with the optimal rate of progression for a person, because they will be making the call each month.

Has anyone stalled after a 4 week block and then had to lower the poundage for the next? Was this a result of not taking 90% in the first place?

Maybe Wendler should have knocked 10% off all the percentages in the first place …

349

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

Maybe Wendler should have knocked 10% off all the percentages in the first place …

[/quote]

Why? The 5/3/1 method is flawless the way it already is. Why change anything? Just follow it to the letter!!

350

I’m gonna get the book.

351

haha no only because of the recommendation to take your 1RM, then knock 10% off it, then the % are based on that.

352

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Hey Wylie I do know you but that is a great summary, although I think a bit of a typo there “at a bodyweight of 365lbs” lol unless you lost 100lbs???
[/quote]

Thanks for catching that, Magarhe! I corrected it, it should have been 242lbs.

353

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
Do people add 10lbs per month or do people who get great results decide to add, say, 20lbs one month? or 15lbs? Is this what people are doing - seeing how a 4 week block goes then deciding on the next max?
[/quote]

I started around 85% of my contest maxes. I make 10lbs increases per wave. I even did that on the bench and I am going to have to lower my percentages on the bench and deadlift.

I could get by with 10lbs increases on the deadlift a while longer, but why lift at higher percentages when you can get stronger with less. I just finished up my 7th wave.

354

Since we are talking about how much the weight should be incresead, i have a question that one of the guys that are more experienced can help me:

I started this wave based on my current max (while injuried) on the bench, everything went well and i did 10reps with 95% and the injury is getting better. But now i realised that it will take 8 or 9 months to use my old 5rm in the 95% day, if i use 5lbs increases.

So do you guys think its a good idea to use 10lbs increases on the bench and when i reach the weights i was using before injury i go back to 5lbs increases?

355

Here’s what I do, and it seems to work really well for me. But I consider myself an intermediate lvl lifter, so it could be really bad for the others… Anyway, what I’ve been doing is this:

If I get something around 8/5/3 reps or less with the prescribed weights, I increase them as Wendler recommends for the next cycle.

But if I get something higher than that, like 10/7/5 reps for instance, I double the increase, so I use a 20lbs jump for the squat and the deadlift, and 10lbs for the bench and the military press.

356

[quote]Sagat wrote:
Since we are talking about how much the weight should be incresead, i have a question that one of the guys that are more experienced can help me:

I started this wave based on my current max (while injuried) on the bench, everything went well and i did 10reps with 95% and the injury is getting better. But now i realised that it will take 8 or 9 months to use my old 5rm in the 95% day, if i use 5lbs increases.

So do you guys think its a good idea to use 10lbs increases on the bench and when i reach the weights i was using before injury i go back to 5lbs increases?[/quote]

Nothing wrong with ONE 10 pounds increase…
Anway if you do more reps with your actual weight, your still getting stronger!! In fact its up to you if you wanna increase the weight by 10 pounds, listen to your body and be carefull with the injury!

Also there a formula in the new book to estimate your one rep max…a funny tool…a indicator to see if you had a good day in the gym…

357

[quote]JPuxHenri wrote:
Here’s what I do, and it seems to work really well for me. But I consider myself an intermediate lvl lifter, so it could be really bad for the others… Anyway, what I’ve been doing is this:

If I get something around 8/5/3 reps or less with the prescribed weights, I increase them as Wendler recommends for the next cycle.

But if I get something higher than that, like 10/7/5 reps for instance, I double the increase, so I use a 20lbs jump for the squat and the deadlift, and 10lbs for the bench and the military press.[/quote]

your not doing the 5/3/1

358

[quote]crankMAN wrote:
Sagat wrote:
Since we are talking about how much the weight should be incresead, i have a question that one of the guys that are more experienced can help me:
I started this wave based on my current max (while injuried) on the bench, everything went well and i did 10reps with 95% and the injury is getting better. But now i realised that it will take 8 or 9 months to use my old 5rm in the 95% day, if i use 5lbs increases.
So do you guys think its a good idea to use 10lbs increases on the bench and when i reach the weights i was using before injury i go back to 5lbs increases?

Nothing wrong with ONE 10 pounds increase…
Anway if you do more reps with your actual weight, your still getting stronger!! In fact its up to you if you wanna increase the weight by 10 pounds, listen to your body and be carefull with the injury!

Also there a formula in the new book to estimate your one rep max…a funny tool…a indicator to see if you had a good day in the gym…

[/quote]

Thanks for the response. Actually i was thinking about 4 or 5 10lbs increases, if everything goes well (injury wise)i think would still be able to no less than 5-6 reps in the 5/3/1(95%) workout after 5 10lbs increases.

359

[quote]Sagat wrote:
Since we are talking about how much the weight should be incresead, i have a question that one of the guys that are more experienced can help me:
I started this wave based on my current max (while injuried) on the bench, everything went well and i did 10reps with 95% and the injury is getting better. But now i realised that it will take 8 or 9 months to use my old 5rm in the 95% day, if i use 5lbs increases.
So do you guys think its a good idea to use 10lbs increases on the bench and when i reach the weights i was using before injury i go back to 5lbs increases?[/quote]

You can do 10lbs increases, but once you start to only hit the prescribed reps you need to back your percentages down.

The scenario that has worked best for my bench was to have the percentages light enough that I could really hammer my close grip bench presses, which I do after my 5/3/1 bench.

I will be lowering my percentages after my meet next weekend.

360

[quote]crankMAN wrote:
JPuxHenri wrote:
Here’s what I do, and it seems to work really well for me. But I consider myself an intermediate lvl lifter, so it could be really bad for the others… Anyway, what I’ve been doing is this:

If I get something around 8/5/3 reps or less with the prescribed weights, I increase them as Wendler recommends for the next cycle.

But if I get something higher than that, like 10/7/5 reps for instance, I double the increase, so I use a 20lbs jump for the squat and the deadlift, and 10lbs for the bench and the military press.

your not doing the 5/3/1
[/quote]

Aww!! But it works for me. Whenever it stops working, I’ll become more conservative. Besides, I don’t think that the 10lbs and 5lbs weight jumps are the ones that define the 5/3/1 method. Why can’t you make bigger (not that big really) weight jumps if you feel that you’re progressing faster than expected? If I get 10 reps with the prescribed 95%, I guess it’s fair to double the weight jump for the next cycle. But again, that’s just me.