I’d like to hear some opinions on the training split. what do you think about advantages/disadvantages of each these two splits:
Squat + whole lower body
Bench + whole upper body
Deadlift + whole lower body
Military press + whole upper body
(like the routine i posted before)
or
Squat+ legs
Bench + chest and triceps
Deadlifts + back
Military press + shoulders and biceps
(like the bodybuilder template)
Anyone here tried training these two ways(even in another program)? How they compare?
[quote]Sagat wrote:
I’d like to hear some opinions on the training split. what do you think about advantages/disadvantages of each these two splits:
Squat + whole lower body
Bench + whole upper body
Deadlift + whole lower body
Military press + whole upper body
(like the routine i posted before)
or
Squat+ legs
Bench + chest and triceps
Deadlifts + back
Military press + shoulders and biceps
(like the bodybuilder template)
Anyone here tried training these two ways(even in another program)? How they compare?[/quote]
Is A1 and A2 an either - or thing? I haven’t read Jim Wendler’s book, but 5/3/1 I see as a lot of max effort, so one needs to be careful with too much volume.
[quote]danjo228 wrote:
Is A1 and A2 an either - or thing? I haven’t read Jim Wendler’s book, but 5/3/1 I see as a lot of max effort, so one needs to be careful with too much volume.
[/quote]
A1 and A2 mean exercises pairings, for example:
A1-Bench
A2-Rows
means that you do one set of bench, rest, then do one set of rows, rest and then go back to the bench until all sets are done.
I’m not worried about the volume because i’m only doing 1 or 2 hard sets per exercise, so it really isnt that much. I’m on the 5th wave on this program, and i havent had problem recovering fom that, but of course everyone is different.
My question was more about the different splits (frequency), about how do you split the work done during the week, but considering the weekly volume/exercises are somewhat similar in the two options.
Hey guys,
I need some review. I’m wrapping up my third cycle of 5/3/1.
My meet lifts are:
Squat x 435
Bench x 265
Deadlift x 523
For the cycle, I used these numbers:
Squat = 400
Bench = 245
Dead = 500
Military = 135
Well, the first cycle was hard, especially on the 5 reps week. But the second two cycles have been better. The problem is I’m not setting PR’s or increasing my reps.
Last cycle I squatted 380x3 for the 5/3/1 week.
Today, I squatted 380x3, another rep would have been impossible. No improvement whatsoever. Last cycle I deadlifted 475x3 and today only got 475x2.
Did I start too heavy?
What should I do for my next cycle. Should I increase the weight or repeat the same weights? I have done 3 cycles with same weights and my reps have only barely increased.
I only hear good things about this program, yet I am not seeing the results. Maybe it is too early, yet I’m on my third cycle.
I feel like I’m not lifting heavy weight, yet the weights feel heavy. This is scaring me. Prior to this I did more of a Westside type of program. I don’t want to lose strength from not hitting heavy doubles and singles, yet I’m lifting at low(er) percentages and barely doubles and singles.
And a question on increasing the weights:
When I do decide to increase my weights, how should I increase them? Increase the actual max or just add 10lbs to the last set of each week?
I don’t want to increase my weights by only 5lbs, (that’s pointless, I might as well just go for reps instead of increasing the weight). Yet if I increase the maxes by 10lbs or so, that is what is going to happen.
I also dropped the first two sets for my third cycle. Increasing the weight in 5% increments just seemed ridiculous, but I did it anyway. Now after looking at Jim Wendler
s logs and Matt Kroc’s logs, neither one of them did that, so for my current cycle, I just do my own warm up and worry about the last set.
Anyway, any advice on what I should do would be great. It seems like everyone else is hitting PR’s week after week, so I want to know what I’m doing wrong.
Thanks so much.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
Hey guys,
I need some review. I’m wrapping up my third cycle of 5/3/1.
My meet lifts are:
Squat x 435
Bench x 265
Deadlift x 523
For the cycle, I used these numbers:
Squat = 400
Bench = 245
Dead = 500
Military = 135
Well, the first cycle was hard, especially on the 5 reps week. But the second two cycles have been better. The problem is I’m not setting PR’s or increasing my reps.
Last cycle I squatted 380x3 for the 5/3/1 week.
Today, I squatted 380x3, another rep would have been impossible. No improvement whatsoever. Last cycle I deadlifted 475x3 and today only got 475x2.
Did I start too heavy? [/quote]
Possibly. It looks like you started higher than 90% on all of your lifts.
[quote]
What should I do for my next cycle. Should I increase the weight or repeat the same weights? I have done 3 cycles with same weights and my reps have only barely increased. [/quote]
Huh? You’ve done three cycles without changing the weights at all? [quote]
I only hear good things about this program, yet I am not seeing the results. Maybe it is too early, yet I’m on my third cycle.
I feel like I’m not lifting heavy weight, yet the weights feel heavy. This is scaring me. Prior to this I did more of a Westside type of program. I don’t want to lose strength from not hitting heavy doubles and singles, yet I’m lifting at low(er) percentages and barely doubles and singles.[/quote]
I’m also confused here. If you are lifting poundages that you can only lift for 2 or 3 reps, isn’t that a heavy double or triple, regardless of the actual percentage?
[quote]
And a question on increasing the weights:
When I do decide to increase my weights, how should I increase them? Increase the actual max or just add 10lbs to the last set of each week?[/quote]
I’ve seen it done both ways. It’s not a huge difference either way. And for the record, Wendler suggests 5 pound jumps for military and bench and 10 for dead and squat.[quote]
I don’t want to increase my weights by only 5lbs, (that’s pointless, I might as well just go for reps instead of increasing the weight). Yet if I increase the maxes by 10lbs or so, that is what is going to happen. [/quote]
Why is a 5 pound jump pointless? This is likely part of the problem. The 5/3/1 is only a 4 (or 5) week cycle with only 3 (or 4) actual work weeks. A five pound increase in three weeks is damn good, especially a steady five pound increase. I don’t understand your thinking here. I think you’re looking for something more spectacular and magical that doesn’t really exist.
I’m really curious to see exactly what you did for the last 3 cycles. If you could post exactly what you did for your main lifts, I think we could pinpoint what went wrong.
TravisCS84, it seems like you basically ignored all of Wendler’s advice and are now wondering why the program doesn’t work. What you need to do is go back, bite the bullet, recalculate your maxes MUCH lower, and start over. You should be easily able to hit your reps (and then some) for at least the first three cycles.
Don’t worry about losing strength from not doing heavy singles; that’s not the only way to get strong. Go back and look at Wendler’s log and videos and you will see what he has achieved starting lighter and progressing slowly.
I agree with malonetd, a 5 lb increase is not pointless. Hell, ANY increase on a lift is good, and as a PLer, I’m surprised you would say that. Remember, powerlifting is a marathon, not a sprint. Slow progress over time will lead to big gains down the road.
The 5/3/1 is a good program IF you follow it the way it is laid out. If you bite off more than you can chew, you will end up disappointed, as seems to be the case here.
Here is a quopte from Wendler himself:
“Remember that you don’t have to “work” at a max to have that max. This has been proven a million times over. For example Monte Sparkman benched 440 at a meet using a 405 training max.”
Source: http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=85845&tid=
Well, I guess I just started too heavy.
And the reason why I haven’t upped the weight is because the reps were so hard to meet the first time, that I wanted to do two more cycles and improve upon the number of reps I could get. I thought that would be a sensible thing to do.
So should I just do my fourth cycle with lower numbers, then increase them 5-10 lbs each subsequent cycle?
Maybe:
Squat = 385
Bench = 235
Dead = 470
About the intro sets, I didn’t like adding 20 lbs, doing 5 reps, adding 20lbs, doing 5 reps, then repping out. If you look at Jim’s log, he usually pays no attention to the first two sets. And if he does, they are definitely at much lower percentages. And Matt K currently does something completely different, but he did 5/3/1 for 4 cycles earlier in '08 and also didn’t do much for the earlier sets.
I will definitely pick the Variation B where it makes 10% or more jumps.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
Well, I guess I just started too heavy.
And the reason why I haven’t upped the weight is because the reps were so hard to meet the first time, that I wanted to do two more cycles and improve upon the number of reps I could get. I thought that would be a sensible thing to do.
So should I just do my fourth cycle with lower numbers, then increase them 5-10 lbs each subsequent cycle?
Maybe:
Squat = 385
Bench = 235
Dead = 470
About the intro sets, I didn’t like adding 20 lbs, doing 5 reps, adding 20lbs, doing 5 reps, then repping out. If you look at Jim’s log, he usually pays no attention to the first two sets. And if he does, they are definitely at much lower percentages. And Matt K currently does something completely different, but he did 5/3/1 for 4 cycles earlier in '08 and also didn’t do much for the earlier sets.
I will definitely pick the Variation B where it makes 10% or more jumps. [/quote]
I think you’re on the right track; those numbers look much better. Make sure you’re using the same gear (belt, wraps, etc…) for your sets as you used in your meet lifts, otherwise the numbers may be skewed. Also make sure you’re deloading every fourth week, whether you feel like you need it or not.
I like variation B as well for the first two sets. The point is to train but not burn yourself out. I would still pay attention to those sets as they are important, but you don’t have to go crazy.
Have faith my brother. I wish you all the best.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
Well, I guess I just started too heavy.
And the reason why I haven’t upped the weight is because the reps were so hard to meet the first time, that I wanted to do two more cycles and improve upon the number of reps I could get. I thought that would be a sensible thing to do.
So should I just do my fourth cycle with lower numbers, then increase them 5-10 lbs each subsequent cycle?
Maybe:
Squat = 385
Bench = 235
Dead = 470
About the intro sets, I didn’t like adding 20 lbs, doing 5 reps, adding 20lbs, doing 5 reps, then repping out. If you look at Jim’s log, he usually pays no attention to the first two sets. And if he does, they are definitely at much lower percentages. And Matt K currently does something completely different, but he did 5/3/1 for 4 cycles earlier in '08 and also didn’t do much for the earlier sets.
I will definitely pick the Variation B where it makes 10% or more jumps. [/quote]
Did you buy the book, or are you just trying to figure this out all from posts (both here and at Elite.) I hope you dont take this the wrong way, but you seem so confused, I would just invest in the book and do the program as is written and as has been said before.
90% should be the highest starting weight for this program. I started out at 85% of my contest maxes. My personal recommendation is to start at 85% of a competition max or 90% of your gym max. This compensates for the adrenalin/being amped that you experience in a contest. This Friday is my 3rd week (5/3/1 week) of my 5th wave and the percentages call for 580 on the deadlift. This is 89% of my raw contest deadlift max from before I started the 5/3/1 program.
I have not gone below 5 reps on anything yet and I am hitting a PR on my rep max constantly. I have a contest on January 25 and I will get to see how much my lifts have improved. You don’t have to use near max weights to get stronger.
I have two guys that I train with on the 5/3/1 program and I started them at 85% and it’s working great for them.
No, I own the book.
However, there were some things that seemed unclear.
Plus, reading the logs on EliteFTS, it seems like everyone does something different.
Yeah, it’s finally getting through my thick skull that the weights need not be near-maximal to increase strength. It just took me three cycles of stagnation to think that I might have started too heavy.
A friend told me that by starting light it’s easy to ramp up the reps week after week (say, go from 10 reps to 13), but it is not so easy to do that with heavier weights (i.e., go from 3 to 4).
I’m designing a new program now for my next cycle which will begin after my de-load this next week.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
Yeah, it’s finally getting through my thick skull that the weights need not be near-maximal to increase strength. It just took me three cycles of stagnation to think that I might have started too heavy.
A friend told me that by starting light it’s easy to ramp up the reps week after week (say, go from 10 reps to 13), but it is not so easy to do that with heavier weights (i.e., go from 3 to 4).
I’m designing a new program now for my next cycle which will begin after my de-load this next week. [/quote]
Good luck! Lowering your percentages will make a big difference.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
About the intro sets, I didn’t like adding 20 lbs, doing 5 reps, adding 20lbs, doing 5 reps, then repping out. If you look at Jim’s log, he usually pays no attention to the first two sets. And if he does, they are definitely at much lower percentages. [/quote]
I don’t know about this. As far as I can remember, Jim almost always hits all three working sets. His percentages might not exactly match the 5/3/1, but it’s probably because he knows what works for him.
[quote]TravisCS84 wrote:
No, I own the book.
However, there were some things that seemed unclear.
Plus, reading the logs on EliteFTS, it seems like everyone does something different. [/quote]
I dunno then, I think you’re overthinking it to be honest. You did 3 cycles but didnt add weight because you wanted to work on the reps? It’s really not the 531 program then, it just doesnt seem to make sense to me.
With my bench numbers the highest reps that i hit are (obviously) on the 85% week. My first cycle I did 255x10 then next cycle 260x10. By adding 5 lbs I added a total of 50 lbs of volume (5lbs x 10 reps) if i had tried to stay at 255 but do 11 reps I would have been adding a total of 255 lbs of volume.
Additionally, I believe Jim has said a couple of times that you should be stopping a rep or two short of failure. I know that first cycle with 255 I felt like I probably could’ve gotten 12, but Jim HAMMERS home not failing, so I stopped short. So if I had taken the same weight next month, if I’d really wanted it, I expect I could’ve gotten 255x11. That fact that you didnt, yeah, i think that suggests starting to heavy as well.
This is my 5th Wave, 11th week of 12 week training cycle for NASA Natural Nationals.
Squat
January 5, 2009
Elliptical Trainer - 10 min.
Mobility Work
Squat
45x2x5
135x5
225x3
315x3
355x5
405x3
450x5 ← add belt
Walkout - 600x1
Leg Ext. - 140x3x10
Seated Leg Curls - 100x3x10
Farmers Walk Handles Obliques - 110x3x10
This was my peak squat for this training cycle.
Bench Press
January 7, 2009
Bench Press (ea. rep paused)
45x5
135x5
225x5
275x5
300x3
340x5
Close Grip Bench Press
315x3x5
Incline DB Bench Press - 90x3x8
Pulldowns w/multi grip bar (no rest between grip changes)
Wide 230x8
Med. 230x8
Close 230x8
Seated Face Pulls - 110x3x10
Hammer Curls - 40x20
Deadlift
January 9, 2009
Mobility Work
Deadlift
135x5
225x3
315x3
405x3
460x3
520x3
585x7 ← add belt
This was my last deadlift workout before NASA Natural Nationals. This is 35lbs and 1 rep more than I did leading into NASA Unequipped Nationals.
I’ve been getting awesome results (based on estimating 1RM from the last set AMAP) from doing this exactly as the book spells it out. The only thing I’m considering messing with is the deload. Has anyone done enough cycles to compare deloading every 4th week, versus cranking out 2 cycles straight before a deload?
My brother has been using this program and really likes it. Hes been making steady progress for the past several months and has gotten noticeably bigger during that time.
Im pretty sure he has been deloading every other cycle since, at 18, he can take a lot more of a beating before needing some time off. Iv seen Wendler say that you should deload when you feel like deloading and that theres no point in taking time off if you feel good.
[quote]Stronghold wrote:
My brother has been using this program and really likes it. Hes been making steady progress for the past several months and has gotten noticeably bigger during that time.
Im pretty sure he has been deloading every other cycle since, at 18, he can take a lot more of a beating before needing some time off. Iv seen Wendler say that you should deload when you feel like deloading and that theres no point in taking time off if you feel good.[/quote]
Awesome! Thank you for the reply