Different strokes for different folks, I’ll stick with what works for me and that’s hitting with the last two knuckles with my punch. I have a strong punch and very hard right hook and no problems with broken bones or hurt knuckles even though I have small hands.
I knew a guy in high school who was the state heavy weight golden gloves champ. Both of his hands are disfigured, his last two knuckles are back farther than they should be from hitting. And this boy was a bad ass puncher, he could hit like most can only dream about. And he did it with his two smallest knuckles.
I can see that there are a lot of misconceptions about boxers punching vs martial arts punching. The biggest being the idea of a long distance power stroke. I obviously need to clarify some of my previous posts. Relaxation is way more important than distance. You guys need to find a video of Bruce Lee demonstrating a one inch punch. Unfortunately the martial has it’s fair share of art fags who have promoted the myth that force=mass times velocity sqaured
as a way of denegrating weight training. That formula is based upon a lack of understanding of how the body works. Distance and velocity of a punch play a much smaller role in punching power than most people realize. The biggest problem with punches in the martial arts is over extension. Boxing much like southern shaolin Wing Chun and Isshin Ryu is considered an infighting style vs tae kwon do or shaolin long fist which are based upon northern shaolin which was developed as defense against mongol horsemen. Mike Tyson can rock someone with an uppercut thrown from only 4 or 5 inches with no problem, same with the isshinryu and wing chun punches distance is not very important because of how the body actually works.
As far as being prepared for self defense being a matter of aggressions issues, that is just completely ignorant. I live in Detroit and if I ever have to defend myself I intend to win. I have plenty of classmates who are ready for some fisticuffs and some of them can be challenging enough, that I don’t feel the need to start altercations outside of school.
Hitting bones is something that is only conditionally dangerous for example if I reverse punch you i your eye socket as hard as I can I might break you I eye socket, if I hit a little off to one side I might break your nose, a little low your cheekbone , off to the other side your temple, none of these targets am I worry me about my hands. If I hit high however on your browridge which is one of the thickest parts of the skull just like Mike T did on Mitch Green in a street fight outside a nightclub I might break my had just like Mike. Which is why I practice without bigass boxing gloves that prevent me from learning bare handed accuracy while also forcing me to avoid throwing centerline punches which are the heart and soul of Wing Chun, Isshin ryu and Jeet Kune Do Philosophy.
Here is oe of my favorite ways to use a bag. I have a 80 pounder set up on top of a 1 foot tall box and leaned up against the wall of my basement, to hit it on the sweet spot I have to drop my wieght a good deal, this is an excellent way to hit it as I don’t have to swing at my max to feel a real good connection when my technique is correct, I have never hurt my had doing this and I have been doing it for a few years now. You don’t need hit it all out and jack your hand out, just build moderately and progressively
Sifu
you make some good arguements but as for accuracy in a fight that can all go out the window when its ‘on’. As I’m sure you know its win or lose. And when the fists are flying, a moving target can be hard to hit.
Anyhow boxers have generally very good accuracy as we are trained as head hunters. Always looking for that strike to the jaw.
As for F=ma well that is very important but whats more important is F*T which is how long that force is applied to the target or impulse. That is why the US Olympic boxing team spent a year testing the impulse of its boxers punches and why they have the most powerful amateur fighters in the world!
As for Mike Tyson and his uppercut well you haven’t taken into account the fact that an uppercut is an often unseen punch. If you don’t see the punch coming its much more likely to do damage because you have no time to brace your muscles, slip or block. Also the twisting motion of an uppercut as with a hook produces a rotational force on the brain stem which is far more likely to cause unconsciousness than a straight punch which causes less rotation of the head.
Bruce lees one inch punch? C’mon do you really think Lee’s full right cross wouldn’t be considerably more powerful than his one incher?!
The guy was undoubtably very fast and F=ma. Everyone around Bruce used to say how strong he was for his size and coupled with his awesome rate of force development allowed him to generate tremendous force in his kicks and punches over even short distances.
But i have to agree that where you strike determines how likely you are to break you hand. I’ve never seen someone break their hand with a body shot except when they connected with the elbow.
I not knocking any forms of striking by the way, I train kicks, knees and elbows myself for MMA but just stating that when it comes to closed fist, IMHO Boxing because it specialises in closed fist striking and has been developed to be the most efficient and effective means of employing this technique.
The point I was trying to make with the uppercut analogy was this, I see some people saying that boxers are hitting way harder because their punches travel furthur and this is because they have more time to accelerate before they hit their target and this higher velocity is the most important thing when it isn’t. What needs to be understood is this your fist hitting the bag is not the end of the punch, which is what a lot of people assume. The moment resistace is encountered the body fires off additional motor units to keep the punch moving that is why the time on target formula is important, that is why a lot of distance for acceleration is not terribly important, it’s why Lee could develop power in one inch and it’s also why relaxation is so important, the more you relax, the more unused motor units there are to throw into the penetration phase of the blow. This secondary acceleration is the whole reason why you hit a heavy bag or makiwara you are teaching the body to do this. Does this make sense? If velocity was all you needed then you would be best served by practicing swinging your hands through the air at maximum velocity. It’s the way the body works, the body will use the minimum amount of muscle cells neccesary to do the movement.
Accuracy in punching is important even when the shit is hitting the fan, that is why you need to be as good as you can be in your training so you have some leeway, you might get one breif opportunity to land a blow that can tip things in your favor or maybe you just want to do something like punch him on the chin and knock him out but you throw a little low and hit him in the throat and kill him, it could turn a simple altercation into a manslaughter charge. That kind of accident can happen real easy, it’s why I am very reluctant to engage in fights outside of class it’s just not worth it. I hope this explained what I am thinking a little better for you
The reason I have an issue with your explanation is because you are describing things in terms of pseudo science.
The damage caused by a punch is determined by the change of momentum of in this case the head. It has a finite mass (simplification not taking into account muscle resistance which would increase the effective mass) and the amount of impulse (change of momentum) applied will determine its subsequent acceleration and the decceleration of the fist. The head shooting backwards and the brain (which is suspended in fluid) being left behind so it crashes into the skull and following shockwave is what causes a knockout.
The impulse of the punch (intergral of force over time) will change the momentum of the head. The size of this change is directly proportional to the size of the impulse, in fact they are the same. By measuring impulse and not just peak force you can determine the how the momentum of the struck object changes. The time of contact for a strike to the head I assume must be measured in split seconds but as you correctly state this needs to be as long as possible, i.e. a solid blow and not a glancing one.
The reason just swinging your arm to generate as much velocity as possibly won’t work is because the force, and resultant impulse, would be small because you aren’t putting the mass of your body behind the punch i.e. the m in F=ma i.e. you are only punching with the mass of your arm.
That is why good technique and biomechanics are important. The force of a punch is a cumulative summation of the force generated through the body, all the way from the feet to the fist. That is why Mike Tyson can hit so hard.
And I am being picky here because I fully understand your point but the chance of hitting someone in the throat instead of the jaw is remote! I have never seen this happen. In boxing accuracy is everything, it can mean the difference between a knockout and a missed shot.
And I don’t believe there is such a thing as a second acceleration after initial contact. If there is you aren’t punching correctly, its called a push! The fist is just an extension of your body. Once its flies toward the target at moment of impact any force you have imparted on it is all there is going to be. The reason for punching through the target is to maximise the impulse of the punch, and make sure the force is applied to the object as long as possible.
about ten or 15 year ago popular mechanics had a very interesting article called the mechanics of a knockout. It fairly well explained how the brain is affected by different punches. It’s affected mainly by two factors the strength of the muscle group being worked against, the flexors are stronger than the rotators so hooks can snap the head around better than upper cuts can snap it back which is one factor in favor of hooks, and the surface area of the brain when veiwed from the side and the bottom with the broader bottom giving more cushioning from a upward blow than the smaller side profile which allows the brainfluid between the brain and skull less chance to stop the skull from smacking into the brain upon rotation. I had one of my classmates punch me in the throat the first time he had gone with out gloves in a few years it sort of broke one of the cartilage ribs in my windpipe, it didn’t close my windpipe but it hurt like hell and scared the hell out of me that it would swell my throat shut. It can happen I’ve had a few other close calls and I’ve seen others have close calls and I have hit someone, though mine got lucky because I swung too hard and hit him a little bit behind the trachea .
Yeah it’s not really a second acceleration it’s more of a plyometric effect. The body uses the bare minimum muscle cells necessary to perform a function as contact is made and you load the muscles more fibers are brought into play keep the motion going that’s my understanding of it. that’s why you punch through, you are telling your body to keep that moving till it gets to where you are aiming or resistance stops it. Between your toes and your fist there are a lot of unused cells that can come into play thats what martial artists are trying to do when they lock. I’m sure there are some here who can explain plyometric principles.
Mike Tyson has excellent punching technique, just like Bruce Lee on a hook punch and the final punch he blew Spinks out through the ropes with was a picture perfect example of an isshinryu reverse punch he even brought his rt hand down from the onguard to the where the obi would be and threw it from there
Thats interesting stuff about the side of the brain being less resistant to strikes.
Following your train of thought about following through with a punch i had a good think about the mechanics of a punch. When I make contact with the target I am not at full extension in my elbow or shoulder. My hips are already fully extended, then my shoulder follows and lastly my elbow. So I agree I must be exerting force after the initial contact, and through the contact until my fist comes to the limit of its movement or deccelerates to a stop. And the time my fist is in contact, force is imparted, i.e. impulse.
If I miss I must deccelerate my own punch to prevent hyperextension.
I guess the reason I am little disbelieving in the frequency of people getting hit in the throat is that as a boxer the one thing you are taught from day 1 is to keep your chin down. I just couldn’t imagine getting hit in the throat nor have I ever witnessed it. Maybe I have just been fortunate.
I don’t like the karate reverse punch because I just can’t see how checking the natural shoulder extension can do anything to increase power.
I posted before requesting advice on a particular art to form a base from. But upon thinking about this, I realized that it would be in my best interest to study an art that would provide the most carry over for a military career. I originally was considering applying to Platoon Leadership Classes this summer but haven’t made weight just yet(220, need to be 205). Also currently pursuing a degree in Mechanical Engineering and at this point will most likely wait until I graduate before considering the armed forces. I have heard good things about Krav Maga and Hapkido. What do you guys think?
Getting hit in the throat isn’t too common. My experiences are over years of training in a variety of classes, in a style that is known for being fairly rough. Also there is some variety between the types of punches from boxing with a lot of our stuff being linear straight in plus we had kicks to avoid. I once saw two of my students from different classes at a tournament compete,one threw a blind spinning technique that when it landed left a bright red open hand print on his opponents chest just an inch below his throat that was a real close call. coming up i had a teacher who a bit of a immature punk who several times threw something very hard that got within an inch or two of my throat. I found it somewhat disturbing.
There are different ways to reverse punch. I don’t think much of the classical karate corkscrew reverse punch because the line the punch travels isn’t correct to take advantage of the internal rotation of the humerous. The Isshinryu vertical fist reverse punch is superior in this regard. With shoulder rotation you need to be aware where your shoulder is in relation to your knee, anytime your front shoulder goes past your front kee you are off balance. In boxing where there are rules you can get away with this. I MA an opponent might grab your arm and enhance your over extension and send you flying. It’s the differece between a sport and martial arts. In boxing you can duck to avoid a punch do that against me and grab your head and pull it into my knee if we are not in class that is.
In 1954 Tatsu Shimabuku who was the top student of 3 of the greatest karate teachers of all time (kyan, Motobu and Miyagi) was hired to be the first okinawan to teach the marine corp karate. The isshinryu system is is highly refined to be both easily learned and absolutely formidible in combat. It contains excellent hand and foot techniques along with a variety of joint locks. Because of O sensei teaching the corp it is the most widely practiced Okinawan art in america and is still the primary art taught in the corp today. If you are going into the corp it would be my recommendation it will give you a very solid foundation in okinawan karate which is itself descended from the southern shaolin kung fu white crane. I would recommed it over hapkido or krav maga
Gotta agree with Sifu. Isshinryu is great stuff. It is very fast and very effective.
Sifu,do you teach Wing Chun or is that just a SN?
I sincerely doubt that it is that easy to catch a well thrown straight right unless you are much faster and more experienced than your opponent. In boxing you are taught never to over extend because if you do someone punishes you for it. You always bring you hand back to your guard quicker than it goes out!
The whole catching a mans arm when throwing a punch is about as realistic as Daneil Laruso catching a fly with his chopsticks!
But I do agree that boxers who drop their height could well end up eating a knee, as I’ve trained for 3 years in Muay Thai and I would quickly grab that head and plant the knee too. That is what MMA is about, you learn how to defend against other skills and adapt your own accordingly.
The main susceptabilities of boxing are openess to low kicks and clinch fighting, including throws and of course ground fighting.
MMA is a sport where the best combat martial artists in the world test they’re skills. In the early days of UFC it was shown that nearly all traditional forms of martial art were severly lacking when it came to ‘real’ combat, only BJJ and maybe thai/kickboxing stood up to the test.
As for Krav Maga and Hapkido much depends on how they are practiced. I’ve heard the Krav Maga tries to practice with a lot of reality, if so, maybe that’s good for your military purposes. I have to say though, I’ve never seen something other than techniques from, thai, wrestling, boxing or BJJ win a UFC or Pride. To me that says a lot.
Yes, it is a sport but it is very close to the real thing. Hitting special targets and such is often taught in self defense and that can work if you strike first but when you’re not fighting a dummy sometimes they’re difficult to pull off. Personally, I would rather train like an athlete and train MMA, than learn little tricks. Tricks only get you so far where an athletic figthing base in the styles mentioned above allow you to add little tricks to your arsenal any time.
I just want to thank Sifu and Creed for a very informative and knowledgeable discussion.They both had a respect for each others opinions while not always agreeing. I learnt a few good tips from them.
Thanks, Englishman
Yes, this has been an interesting and informative thread guys. The difference between Pride and a combat scenario is this; chances are that if you are involved in hand-to-hand combat, you are going to be armed with atleast a knife. Being efficient at thai-Boxing isn’t going to be all that useful when your opponent is efficient with a knife. Krav Maga seemed to directly deal with this type of situation, and with Hapkido being the art that essentialy focuses on subduing an opponent in the most efficient manner possible, it seemed like a practical idea. But if the corp still focuses on karate than that is probably the direction I will take. I have about two years to prepare prior to graduating. It will be alot easier to find a Karate teacher in the Columbus, Ohio area as well; I could find only one Hapkido dojo in the state. Anyone have an instructor recomendation for the Columbus area…?
I do agree that it is hard to actually catch someones arm that would be what I call a hard block what i am talking about is what we term soft blocking where you are actually redirecting that is a little easier you only need to get a part of them.
I think one of the reasons why the martial arts I study don’t extend punches quite as much as boxers is as the range increases you come into kicking range. I reccommend the JKD book Entering to Trapping to Grappling for a good explanation of the 5 ranges of fighting. Isshinryu has techniques for all of these ranges the only thing we don’t get into heavily is actually rolling on the floor with someone but just before that point we have extremely short range kicks along with a lot of joint locking, elbows, knees, it’s fairly comprehensive. One thing I feel it has going for it and against it, is it’s fairly widely practiced. The good thing is you can find teachers in every state which would be something to consider for a person in the military who might have to move around a lot you’ll be able to continue your studies easier with a more widely practiced art. The bad part of it is the more teachers the more range in thier abilities, and there has been a certain degree of bastardization of the art with people who started in other styles getting into it and not fully understanding that it is a close in fighting system. So there are a few things that I have seen in other Isshinryu schools that aren’t quite right. For example isshinryu’s primary target for kicks is the groin that is why high kickers don’t like to fight us. Years ago I was at a tournament in Tennesee for isshinryu only. I watched one of the competitors stand on one leg and just leave his other leg up flicking out kicks till finally one got close enough to his opponent to get a point called. I said to the guy next to me can you believe someone would do that at an Isshinryu tournament! a few minutes later this guy I said that to is trying the same thing on me! I instinctively threw a side kick under his leg into his groin so hard I felt bad about it even though he should have known better. The point is a good style can have bad practitioners.
one modification I make to what creed said is this. MMA has the best martial artists who want to go in for that kind of thing. I know some people who I think could do well in mma who it’s just not their thing. You can get fucked up so you will never do martial arts again in one of those matches. And quite frankly I have watched some ufc matches that while they were brutal were a huge disappointment in the kicking punching range everyone was just trying to get that takedown so they can wrassle. I helped a freind run a cage event I remember telling a guy who was a “street fighter” vs a greco roman wrestler with tae kwon do training that he either needed to immediately fight his way out of the hold the wrestler had him in or tap out, he didn’t listen so the wrestler started elbowing him in the back of the head. A person with one week of taining would have know to tap out. It really turned me off of that type of match. When I think of real combat I think of my one teacher who was a cop. he had real world experience. Here is a interesting statistic he told me. The majority of cops who are shot are shot with thier own gun by someone who beat them up and took it from them. The reason why is they got too close to someone thinking “I’m safe I have a gun on me” I strongly believe in martial arts training for cops and not just a little bit of joint locking so they can cuff someone either. The highly intricate fine motor movements deteriorate quickly in the heat of battle.
That’s it for this installment thank you Englishman for the kind words. I’m glad to hear that this has helped give some food for thought. Just remember what Mike Mentzer said “ideas are crucially important” and we should “analyze information critically”
Must admit my knowledge of karate is pretty limited to what I have seen which is mostly shotokan and wado ryu. Isshinryu sounds pretty practical with its emphasis on low kicks.
Interesting that you should mention that you were dissapointed when you watch MMA in the kicking and punching because most would end up trying for the takedown, because this is what tends to happpen in a street fight if the initial exchange doesn’t finish it straight away.
There are some notable exceptions to this, stand up fighters who have learnt to brawl and sprawl can resist the takedowns and punish their opponent on the break, Vanderlei Silva, Chuck Liddell being good examples. To be a good stand up figter in MMA you have to adapt your strategy.
You mention cops, well there is alot of MMA techniques being introduced into law enforcement at the moment. Pat Miletich is a master instructor with controlled FORCE, a government organisation which has 4000 instructors in 41 states to teach military and law enforcement personnel.
I think grappling skills are useful and should certainly be a part of a serious martial artists arsenal. As I previously stated isshinryu has had a certain amount of creep over the years where it has gotten away from what it is supposed to be, close in with short techniques. Right when a person gets close enough to grapple me, he is in my killing zone. That why we have a fair amount of elbows and kees amongst other things. What I have seen in ufc is a lot of people getting into this killing zone and not really getting challenged, this is happeing for some very important reasons that people aren’t realizing.
First off is angular body movement (A.K.A. footwork). Evasion makes grappling much more difficult. Evasion is immensly important to Isshinryu it’s what allows a small person like myself to stay in the fight. There is a reason why this is happening and it is the biggest flaw in this test that people aren’t seeing. You are putting two men in a cage who are both thinking “I’m going to win this” “I’m going to show I’m the baddest” they are both trying to “WIN”. They are both looking to stroke thier ego’s. In real world self defense you need to let go of certain aspects of your ego or it will get you killed. I have a freind who has competed in the ufc he is a lot bigger than me and I would not think to get into a his cage with him. If however for some reason he would all of a sudden freak out and attack me I would do everything I felt neccessary to defend myself. My primary thought would not be “I am going to win” it would be “I’m going to survive this” and to that end I sure as hell am not going to try and grapple with this guy. I would do what I needed to do to make a get away. So we need to keep in mind that the measurement of success in MMA is not at all the same as success in the real world. I would not tell a 100 pound woman that if some man trys to grab you and drag you off you need to put him in a submission hold and wait for the authorities. I would tell her do what it takes to get away alive. Does this make sense? Self defense is not about showing who you are and what school you are from, although some of these aspects of ego can certainly help you in having confidence in your abilities and help to project it to your opponent. To that end I think watching someone trying to keep from getting arrested on cops is quite educational. It reminds me of what my policeman teacher told me “I’m a coward and a coward will hurt you really bad just to get away”.