Weight of punching bag?

Diet and Nutrition
21

Figured I’d chime in here.

I come from a traditional background (various forms of kung fu) as well as a “modern” one (boxing & san shou kickboxing - compete in American & Thai kickboxing as well).

It’s the traditional martial arts that’ll tell you not to punch with gloves or wraps. The reason for this is to be more effective “in the street” so you don’t hurt your wrist or break a bone when you punch.

The Japanese method (various styles of karate) for achieving this kind of conditioning involves hitting hard things with a lot of force and no support.

The Chinese method (ie kung fu) involves hitting sand bags repeatedly, softly at first but building up intensity over a long period of time.

The modern philosophy (boxing, kickboxing, etc) is that wraps protect the wrist and the gloves themselves reduce the repeated blunt force damage on everything else.

It’s boxers who are infamous for punching harder than their bones & joints are used to because the gloves & wraps take those things out of the equation.

For pure explosive punching power, best to use gloves and wraps.

Stick with heavier gloves for sparring & shadowboxing; lighter (bag) gloves for heavy bag and pad work.

As far as a bag goes stay away from canvas & free standing water bags. Stick with the old fashioned leather or synthetic leather hanging bags. I’ve only seen martial artists use the water or gel filled bags, not sport fighters. A 100 pound bag should be fine for what you’re using it for.

For the Thai knee, it’s important to remember it’s not just the leg moving to raise the knee (like a sobriety test); instead it’s the whole body (almost like a hurdler). Both anterior and posterior core muscles are very important. Real power comes from putting your hip in it as well as driving off your bottom foot.

Some good exercises for the thai knee would probably be deadlift, hanging & weighted leg raises/knee lifts, squat, and probably kneeling cable crunches.

22

If you can’t hit with the first two knuckles, it’s because you have weak wrists. You need to take care of this problem instead of avoiding it.

Hitting with the last few knuckles is a bad idea is you want to hit with power. If you ever hit anything solid with power, you will surely break your hand.

Cleans and snatches are great for developing power.

23

just wanna back up what ko said.
punching with last 2 knuckles = bad.
though sometimes with a jab, my focus will be more on the middle 2 knuckles instead of the front 2; just because of the angle of the jab and coz it’s not a power shot.

For a cross (rear hand power punch) it’s usually the front 2.
Another thing: you shouldn’t try to crank your wrist to hit with the front 2 knuckles, worry more about the path the whole arm follows.

Do some knuckle pushups to find the most stable position for your wrist and lock it there when you throw a punch; just adjust the angle the punch follows.

Almost sounds like you’re hooking your straight punches at the end if you’re hitting with the last 2 knuckles.
Even hooks shouldn’t hit with the last 2: either turn the fist vertical, or throw it with the focus on the first 2 knuckles so it penetrates instead of swipes.

24

Headbutt, you are right, beacause if
anybody else decides to use either outside knucles you’re taking a chance
of getting them broken. i took MA for
2yrs and learned alot. as for a bag, i
would have one the weighed aleast 120lbs
for puching if kicking is involved then
140 or more.knuckle pushups that i did
used all knuckles and it took some time
to get use to from floor mat to wood floor and then cement floors… i miss
taking classes, maybe i sign up again.

Barton

25

Ko is right about striking with the first two knuckles. A great amount of power is generated from a punch on the second two knuckles, but unfortunately, they are increadibly weak structurally.
Sorry guys, I study a traditional Japanese style (thus my hatred for Tae Bo) and that is why I have suggested no gloves. The way I have been trained, I am more likely to injure myself with gloves on than off.
How many here punch with a verticle fist? Horizontal?

26

Punching bags should be approached progressively and with respect for the fact that you can seriously injure yourself with improper technique. While bag gloves can prevent your hands from getting cut up by a canvas bag they also have a bar in the middle to form your fist around. If you get used to this aid your punching techinque will be affected in that you will come to rely upon it. I look upon hand wraps the same as knee wraps and lifting belts, if your body becomes accustomed to the support, you will be more prone to injury in the real world where such aids are not used. In a real life self defense encounter you are not going to have the time to go wrap your hands (if you do why not just run away)so punching the bag bare handed is not for morons at all. What you have to understand is that there is more than just the musculature that is being trained here, the central nervous system also, is being trained to engage in responses that are almost instantaneous to the point that you are not aware of them. To that end the most important thing to go for is feel. If you punch a bag right you will feel connection through your body right down to your toes. You don’t need to “Max blast it everytime” either. It’s just like lifting weights in this regard, in that you need to develop technique and feel first before you go and max out. Tie downs and or someone to hold it are not a neccessity either. What the majority of people don’t know to differentiate between is a real punch or kick vs a violent shove, there is a difference, one will send your opponent flying away from where they were standing but they get back up, the other will lift them up and drop them where they were standing. The real key is letting yourself relax before you hit. The tendency when you are always trying to kill the bag when you hit it, is you tense your body before you even have gotten the punch moving let alone on target. You can see this just by watching someones face when they are hitting the bag, the tendency is to snarl and grimace like Mr T in rocky as they swing. If you ever watch good martial artists and sometimes boxers you will sometimes see someone dropped with a blow that seemed almost effortless, there is a reason for this. My heavy bag is a slightly bloodstained freind that is alwawys there for me
Just keep an open mind and as
Mike Mentzer used to say analyze information critically.

27

Vertical fist; contact emphasized on bottom three knuckles. I think that arguing the best hand positioning for a straight punch would be mute; there are obviously dozens of variations on the same central theme. All can be effective. I would think that the same amount of power would be generated regardless of impact area. And as far as safety concerns, although the bone structure of the first two knuckles is typically stronger than the last two, contacting with the last three knuckles lends a greater contact area and thus lesser presser dissipated through the hand. However, I have read that the utilization of a vertical fist opposed to horizontal should lead to greater power production in a straight blast. Something about the orientation of radius and ulna, and also orientation of the forearm muscles.

28

Agree with all thats been said about first two knuckles. It makes sense that you would want to make contact with the largest knuckles as opposed to the smallest or else you’re going to break them.

If you are having trouble connecting with the first two knuckles with straights then make sure you twist the fist on impact. Also if you hit with the last two you are much more likely to deliver a glancing blow.

Like headbutt says the type of punch can change the way you make contac. For me, jabs hit with the bottom two knuckles but this is a bad habit I’m trying to fix.

It might open up a can of worms but I disagree that boxers break their hands in street fights because they have ‘soft’ hands. The reason for this is simply that they hit alot harder!

Most martial arts do not use optimum punch mechanics and boxing specialises in the scientific application of striking with a closed fist. This is why the are better. Thats why most kick boxers are lousy boxers they have to train punching and kicking.

29

Horizontal versus vertical fist. Don’t know about straight blasting which I’d guess is the wing chun style rapid punching but the twist on the end of a punch before impact that you get with karateka and boxing punches has been proven scientifically to produce more impulse (which is the amount of force x time applied to the target) than a punch with no twist (vertical). Also the greater hip and shoulder extension in boxing punches means they are more powerful again than karate punches.

I realise some of the more traditional martial artists may dispute these ideas but after training in various striking martial arts for over 10 years i have found this to be inherently true.

30

Sorry Creed, gotta disagree with you on the karateka vs boxer punch strength. I study Isshinryu (and Jeet Kune Do, though it is not a style) and American boxing. I’ve taken hits from karateka and boxers. Boxers are taught a lot more follow through, but karateka are taught to snap the punch. The effect of the snapped punch is more of a shock than a push. The shock is intended to destroy internal organs. I would say both have equally strong punches, but with different intents and results.

31

jpersinger, the reason greater power is achieved with a verticle fist is based on the tricep and its control of hand rotation. In a verticle fist the tricep is not activated and is more used for generating force. A horizontal fist activates the tricep and takes some of it’s punching power. The forearm positioning of a verticle fist prevents wrist flexation on impact. (unless you have weak forarms or bad form)

32

The advantage of punching with the first two knuckles is that the bones that they are attached to are bigger and stronger than the pinky and ring finger, also hitting with the first two knuckles in a so called vertical fist allows you to contract the wrist flexors more fully, allowing them to stabilize the fist better. If boxers have a tendancy to break their hands in real fights it’s because
A they hit with the pinky and ring finger
B they are used to hitting with their hands wrapped so their body isn’t used to supporting that kind of load, it’s basically the same principle as lifting with knee wraps and a belt all the time then one day you go into the gym and decide to max out on squats with no wraps no belt. Do you think you could get hurt doing that?
C they are used hitting with gloves on. In my experience in martial arts I have found that people are a little more careful where they put their punches or kicks when they don’t have pads on to protect them. I have foud that in classes where pads were mandatory because of insurance, people tended to be a lot more wild. The roudhouse kick is a good example of a technique that is real easy to use with a foot pad on because you don’t have to worry about you opponent elbowing the top of your foot to block it. The same thing happens with boxers, they are used to having their hands wrapped and protected by the gloves, because of that they don’t think as much about getting their hands hurt, it’s just not as much of an issue with protection. That’s why I’m not much of a fan of pads. You are better off with just a cup, a mouth peice and regular fighting to the point that your classmates are used to it and don’t get all geeked up because it’s something they ever do. That’s what my favorite schools are like.
So to sum up, I don’t think boxers have some magical way of getting way more power than most martial artists is the reason why they are breaking their hands in real fights. I think it’s that they are doing what they normally do in their training but with the new aspect that they are now bare handed against an opponent who is the same added to the fact that there is no referee or rules which might make them get a little more excited than usual and therefore a little less careful.
Remember boxing is a sport, Martial arts aren’t. What you do in your training is what you will do when the real thing happens. If you practice with a bunch of rules and protections you might develop a false sense of security about your abilities that won’t hold up in the real world

33

Fnord
Many of my friends work the doors and they all agree that boxers hit harder. More knockouts are ‘scored’ by boxers than doormen who train in traditional martial arts. You could argue that this is because boxer trains to knock people out and karateka do not but you can’t deny theres a correlation between punch power and chances of a knockout.

‘The effect of the snapped punch is more of a shock than a push. The shock is intended to destroy internal organs.’
LMFAO!!!

Sorry but you completely lost me on that one. Would you care to explain the physics behind that one?

34

There is a lot of good advice here.
Don’t go too heavy or get a bag that is too hard for you. While ‘you play like you practice’ is true you should still where wraps/gloves when you train or you will hurt your hands. Boxers hit hard and that is one reason for KO’s and another is accuacy, they hit the chin. If you do not protect your hand in training you will hurt yourself. If you punch bare knuckle in the street you may hurt your hand, that’s a chance you take. What’s more common hitting the bag or street fighting? I mean, who is fighting that much in the street anyway? If you are maybe you need to enter a combat sport and get your aggressions out in the ring.

Protect your hands when you can and in the street fight just take the guy down and choke him… that way you don’t hurt your hands or ‘destroy his internal organs’…

Not protecting them is crazy, if you hit a bag with power and you do it often you need to wrap and glove your hands.

35

Who hits harder is debatable, but not worth arguing about.
The upper cut and hook are some of the most devastating punches to have in your arsenal, and are rarely taught in traditional styles (this is a generaliztion, not an absolute).

I do agree that because of the gloves (i’m talking 8-16 oz gloves) boxers get sloppy, and this can result in broken hands. But it has nothing to do with the hands not being conditioned.

As for the bar in bag gloves, not all gloves have them, and I think for most fighters(myself included), the first thing they do is rip that thing out.

" Tie downs and or someone to hold it are not a neccessity either. What the majority of people don’t know to differentiate between is a real punch or kick vs a violent shove, there is a difference, one will send your opponent flying away from where they were standing but they get back up, the other will lift them up and drop them where they were standing"

This is very true. But having someone hold the bag can offer more resistance. I do not like tie downs however.

As for the vertical punch, I feel it is only useful when used short range, where you are not able to fully extend and turn the fist.

36

Boxing may be a sport but to say its not as real as alot of martial arts is bullshit!

Have you ever fought in the ring? I guarantee you when you get in there your opponent is trying to hurt you. Its a very lonely place when you’re out there! Of course its not the same as a real street fight but most traditional martial arts don’t do any type of ‘real’ training save for the ones that are actual combat sports i.e. Thai-boxing, BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Full contact Karate and all MMA.
Yes boxing has many short comings, no kicks or grappling being the biggest but it is very useful in a street fight as it is simple to learn (not to perfect!) and very accessable.

And there is nothing magical about boxers developing more power in their punches its called biomechanics. Speaking only of a straight rear hand punch, the boxers punch travels the furthest to reach the target therefore it will have the greater velocity upon reaching the target and hence greater force all other things being equal.

Most boxers can and will ruck. In my experience the ‘karate kids’ out there are the ones who more often fall short when they realise that their semi-contact free sparing and their mystical death blows aren’t actually applicable to a real fight.

As for the use of wrist wraps I actually don’t use them because I believe they do like knee wraps detract from your own wrist stability. I found heavy (relatively) benching has helped my wrist stabilty more than anything. But as for gloves as Scrappy says you’re hitting the bags alot in training and there is no doubt they protect your hands. But many boxers break they’re hands in the ring! It is the bane of boxers everywhere. People like Naseem Hamed and Mike Tyson who hit very hard but with relatively small hands often have career long hand problems. So why is it the harder hitting boxers have more hand problems?

And I don’t care how careful you hit someone and how much you train without gloves, if you hit as hard as a Mike Tyson in a street fight you are going to break your hand at some point if you punch bone on bone.

37

Whomever it was posting that the boxer tends to throw more powerful punches because of longer power stroke is dead on. What I like most about the straight blast is the emphasis on velocity and shortest possible path to intended target through the center. But both have there merits obviously; I will yield that a properly executed hook can be the most devastating and effective punch if utilized in the proper manner. This is an interesting thread guys. Like I posted earlier, I am looking forward to beginning formal study of the martial arts in the fall. But I am not quite sure what I would like be build a foundation from; ie starting point. I have always been interested in Wing Chun and free form, but as much as body type really doesn’t determine this it seems that I would just be more well suited to thai boxing or karate. 6’1" 225 at approx. 15% bf. I will be at 205-208 by fall. Any advice? Are the MMA folks on the board primarily jujitsu practitioners. It seems ever since the Gracie’s that has been the trend for grappling study. Thanks.

38

I tried to make my posts as fair and balanced as I could in order to avoid the normal “Traditional vs Modern” arguments that arise.

Like any other tool, each used the right way at the right time in the right place (and trained the right way) can be invaluable and effective.

If I actually counted the different ways I throw a jab, I’d probably have more than 5 or 10. Different tools for different occasions. Debating which is stronger: the vertical fist or the horizontal; is a moot point- it all boils down to which one you train more and which one gives you; as an individual, the most benefit.

To further confuse things, if you go to stickgrappler’s website Team Messenger & Online Collaboration Platform – Flock (he’s from the underground @ mma.tv) you’ll find transcriptions of Jack Dempsey’s book. Jack Dempsey was the first million dollar athlete and one of the fathers of modern day boxing. He advocates hitting with the bottom 3 knuckles, describing a power line that extends from the shoulder through the 2nd knuckle of the pinky. He also describes head shots as being vertical fists.

There aren’t really any cut n dried answers, mostly just personal preferences and what works for different individuals who have very different strengths and weaknesses.

I think the only constants are:

  • don’t bend your wrist to punch, it must be stable.
  • punching at an awkward angle can reduce your power and break your hand
  • good punchers punch hard, but knowing your limits will reduce injury
  • punching with wraps and without wraps is different & must be trained accordingly
39

jpersinger

Find the best instruction available and stick with that which you enjoy.

Try a few of the different schools out first; see which has the best fit.

After years in different traditional arts it was a martial sport (somewhat akin to muay thai) that was what eventually made me the happiest.

Some folks like the traditional atmosphere, some folks like the sport atmosphere, some folks like training for a street confrontation, other folks like training for ring sports.

Try to figure out which one is closest to your goals and is the most satisfying.

40

I agree with creed here. To Jspringer definitely go for the best teacher you can find preferably in Thai, boxing, greco/freestyle wrestling or BJJ. MMA guys tend to come from one of these backgrounds, they then learn enough of the other to defend attacks from it and get to a position where they are superior. So a wrestler or bjj guy learns enough boxing to get the clinch and takedown without getting decked. A thai/boxer learns to defend takedowns and have a good enough guard to get back up and used strikes. At least that is the idea. I now try to train the basics in all of these styles. If you have a great right hand, a good clinch w/knees, a good thai kick, good takedown defense, good takedown and position/submission skills you are now Vanderlei Silva and you’re going to do well in most of your fights.
In closing, I know that high atop some mountain there are masters who don’t use gloves and can beat mike tyson, roy jones, minotauro, randy couture and cro cop all at the same time but for us genetically average guys, protect your hands :wink: