It’s been brought up here a few times about how certain fighters are known for their ridiculous weight cutting practices sometimes losing up to 30lbs for day before weigh ins.
This can be viewed as unsafe, unfair and unnecessary.
Do you think that this should remain the same or that the fight game would be better off with same day weigh ins?
What do you think the effects of changing to a same day weigh in system would be?
A same day weight cutting system would definitely stop this practice for the better. Surely the point of weight classes is for the weight to be fair and identical during the fight.
one could argue that it is fair because “everyone cuts”…
[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
one could argue that it is fair because “everyone cuts”… [/quote]
Of course, but not to the same extent. As Joe Rogan said in tbe last UFC, cutting weight is not an exact science and at the end of the day it just ends up being another competetive facet with people trying to cut the most weight… I mean, GSP must walk around at at least 25-30 pounds heavier than the WW.
Of course, it’s probably good for the sport to get these huge dudes for their weight duke it out, but at the end of the day I think if it was changed you’d just have everyone essentially move up a weight class.
So you’d get a lot more heavyweights, and there’d be more chances for shorter/stockier dudes to get in on the smaller weight classes.
Everybody does it so I don’t see anything wrong with it. If it was same day people would still cut weight. BUt then guys would not have as much time to recover. Maybe you would have guys dehydrated or slowpaced fights.
I would like to see an unofficial weigh in before the fight, like HBO does with their boxing. Just to see how much guys are stepping into the cage at.
I read an interview with GSP and he said he weighs around 185, and takes 4 days to cut to 170.
[quote]Nikiforos wrote:
A same day weight cutting system would definitely stop this practice for the better.[/quote]
Hell no it wouldn’t. Everyone would still cut the same amount of weight, just now they wouldn’t have enough time to fully rehydrate themselves before the fight and put their health at serious risk. This has been talked about in boxing before. The brain in particular is at risk for severe damage, because it literally floats in a fluid sac, and when you become severely dehydrated that fluid level draws down and there is less cushioning.
Cutting weight is part of the game, and I don’t have an issue with it. Everyone gets the same opportunity to do so. It’s been a part of every single weight class sport for decades and decades. I think they should have to reweigh in as they step into the cage like boxing, however. Quite simply for the purposes of collecting data. At this point, how much weight they cut and bloat back up in 24 hours is pure conjecture, and if anyone wants to even consider changes to the system they need to get some facts on what guys are really doing.
Is it unfair?
I’ve never understood why people piss and moan about weight cutting and how it is so “unfair”. Everyone has the option of cutting weight.
This is like saying that it is economically unfair for one bakery to sell their goods at a much lower price than a competing bakery. The increased sales come at the cost of a per item profit.
Likewise, people think that when Matt Hughes cuts weight, it’s like a takes a shit and it’s gone. It is grueling, painful, requires tremendous willpower, and if it is excessive and the athlete cannot rehydrate in time, it will sap his strength.
There is an equilibrium that is reached between how much weight you can cut and the detrimental effects on performance. Anyone can cut a ton of weight–be it Matt Hughes or Mike Goldberg, so long as they have the willpower. The question is can they rehydrate in time.
Is it unnecessary?
If the question is, “is it useless?”, I think the answer is quite obviously no–all things being equal, the person who weights the more tends to be stronger, and therefore the more effective athlete. Of course, there are always the amazingly talented athletes who can overcome strength with speed and skill. But size certainly is a factor.
Is it unsafe?
Maybe? Probably? Does it matter?
There are certainly health and unhealthy ways of cutting weight. Interestingly, the healthiest way is probably the most effective too–reducing bodyfat to as low as possible and then briefly dehydrating a few pounds right before the match. This is not only healthier, but will maintain energy levels much better for the athlete. However, in my years of wrestling both at the high school and collegiate levels, I rarely saw anyone cutting weight in an intelligent manner. They would eat junk a few days up to the meet and then stop eating for at least 2 days and drinking for at least one, while working out in rubber suits.
However, as far as long-term health goes, unless new data has come out, I think that the data has been unsupportive of such yo-yo diets having long-term negative effects.
But I’m not convinced it matters, because…
Is it preventable?
I’d like to add my own question that is equally important–does it matter? I say no. There is no reasonable way to stop people from cutting weight. So long as weight classes exist, there will be people trying to cut one lower for the edge. So long as we agree that it is a good thing to have weight classes, talking about stopping weight cutting altogether is a moot point.
That said, there are some things that can be done to reduce the impact of weight cutting, at least in its more drastic forms.
I have always advocated that people move weigh ins closer to the show. Hell, if the NCAA is having a problem with athletes cutting unhealthy amounts of weight, have them weigh in right before the match–I’m talking about stripping down and stepping on the scale right before they walk out onto it. That will end dehydration cutting to any significant degree. Dehydration simply reduces performance to too great of a degree, and ultimately, weight cutting is a strategy to gain the edge in performance. Make the con stronger than the pro, and cutting will stop.
Same day weigh ins are in practice in college.
Every one cuts weight. Maybe the Heavy weights dont.
Tony Sauza doesn’t he is good, but he has
not done well recently.
In NCCAA its 1 hour for a duel meet,
2 hours before a tournament same day.
NCAA finals same day.
Olympic trials are the night before usually
at scratch weight.
Olympics I think you weigh in a few times.
that is no allowances, same for NJCAA, and NCAA no allowances.
During regular season there are all manner of ways to get an extra pound, usually before a tournament you have a match the day before and get one pound allowance- but you have to compete at the same weight at the tourney.
there is also a certified weight, that you have to make. College wrestling works on a 144 day practice calender and you have to “certify” at your lowest weight way in the begining of the season.
Your also subject to drug testing, gravity
testing or litmus testing for dehydration.
The gravity testing is like a
hydration test, there are ways around that too.
Have I lost because of dehydration, yes.
have I lost becuase of Large cuts yes.
Did I eventually become a cutting jedi
sure as fuck, if I wanted to start I needed to super cut.
Ok that was longwinded-
but yes you can do same day and recover-
but would people pay to see that?
on a side note I grew like 3 or 4o inches AFTER wrestling… and I did not shave until
AFTER wrestling- so that is like 20 or 21 years old.
not so safe.
So if amateur college kids multiple matches a
week, why should a pro athlete who is fighting ONCE
in a 3 month period weigh in the day before?
probably so no one dies, and so people will pay
for the event. If every one showed up and looked like travis Lutter- it would be bad for the sport.
I think pro’s would find ways to do it,
safe ,unsafe, the first weight cutting death in MMA is sure to come. ( if it has not happened yet)
[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
In NCCAA its 1 hour for a duel meet,
2 hours before a tournament same day.
NCAA finals same day.
Olympic trials are the night before usually
at scratch weight.
Olympics I think you weigh in a few times.[/quote]
You can rehydrate significantly in one to two hours. You can rehydrate even more with night-before weigh ins. During tourneys, people can rehydrate even more throughout the day, so a stud seeded well can smoke a chump even while dehydrated, giving him at least another two hours to rehydrate.
That’s bullshit. There are allowances in NCAA. Unless things have changed in two years, you get an extra pound after the holidays.
Certification is the biggest crock of BS on the planet. The head athletic trainer certifies you, and as long as he doesn’t see you cheat, he doesn’t care. You could be dehydrated as hell, and the trainer will look the other way as you piss into a cup and fill the rest up with tap water.
No it wouldn’t because unless you have gorgeous tits, no org would ever allow you to miss weight twice.
[quote]Fiction wrote:
kmcnyc wrote:
In NCCAA its 1 hour for a duel meet,
2 hours before a tournament same day.
NCAA finals same day.
Olympic trials are the night before usually
at scratch weight.
Olympics I think you weigh in a few times.
You can rehydrate significantly in one to two hours. You can rehydrate even more with night-before weigh ins. During tourneys, people can rehydrate even more throughout the day, so a stud seeded well can smoke a chump even while dehydrated, giving him at least another two hours to rehydrate.
that is no allowances, same for NJCAA, and NCAA no allowances.
That’s bullshit. There are allowances in NCAA. Unless things have changed in two years, you get an extra pound after the holidays.
there is also a certified weight, that you have to make. College wrestling works on a 144 day practice calender and you have to “certify” at your lowest weight way in the begining of the season.
Certification is the biggest crock of BS on the planet. The head athletic trainer certifies you, and as long as he doesn’t see you cheat, he doesn’t care. You could be dehydrated as hell, and the trainer will look the other way as you piss into a cup and fill the rest up with tap water.
If every one showed up and looked like travis Lutter- it would be bad for the sport.
No it wouldn’t because unless you have gorgeous tits, no org would ever allow you to miss weight twice.
[/quote]
I said there is NO allowance for NCCAA finals
I also said there is all manner of allowances during regular season.
and certainly a vet or superstar can perform well while rehydrating.
Agreed on weight certification being BS.
kmc
It’s fine for every class but LW. Imagine you’re a 155. Well, the guy you’re fighting might not be.
Everyone these days cuts down to the next weight class. But there’s nowhere else for the guy in the smallest weight class to cut down to.
I think weight cutting is bullshit. But there is no solution. How do you regulate? You can’t.
It’s one of those problems without a solution. So you just learn to live with the problem.
[quote]Donut62 wrote:
At this point, how much weight they cut and bloat back up in 24 hours is pure conjecture, and if anyone wants to even consider changes to the system they need to get some facts on what guys are really doing.[/quote]
Nah, man, not conjecture. I know what certain guys are cutting. 15-20 pounds is the norm.
Some say 30, but that’s wrong. It goes like this. Say you fight at 170. You might “walk” at 200. But you’ll have some bodyfat. So you lose the off-season fight and accompanying edema. That puts you around 185-190. You use fluid manipulation tactics to “lose” the rest.
It’s so much water that you’ll see more and more guys with IVs backstage.
[quote]Fiction wrote:
I have always advocated that people move weigh ins closer to the show. Hell, if the NCAA is having a problem with athletes cutting unhealthy amounts of weight, have them weigh in right before the match–I’m talking about stripping down and stepping on the scale right before they walk out onto it. That will end dehydration cutting to any significant degree. Dehydration simply reduces performance to too great of a degree, and ultimately, weight cutting is a strategy to gain the edge in performance. Make the con stronger than the pro, and cutting will stop.[/quote]
But then you have a problem all the way at the other end of the spectrum. Guys who walk around at 153, 154 missing weight as a 155 because they had a big dinner the night before, or made sure they drank a ton to stay hydrated all day. Guys not “cutting” weight, per se, but also not filling their tanks all the way up because they dont want to bump into the next class. I like to see my athletes competing at the peak of their abilities, not the minimum.
[quote]CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Donut62 wrote:
At this point, how much weight they cut and bloat back up in 24 hours is pure conjecture, and if anyone wants to even consider changes to the system they need to get some facts on what guys are really doing.
Nah, man, not conjecture. I know what certain guys are cutting. 15-20 pounds is the norm.
Some say 30, but that’s wrong. It goes like this. Say you fight at 170. You might “walk” at 200. But you’ll have some bodyfat. So you lose the off-season fight and accompanying edema. That puts you around 185-190. You use fluid manipulation tactics to “lose” the rest.
It’s so much water that you’ll see more and more guys with IVs backstage. [/quote]
Regardless of what you or anyone knows, there is no reason not to weigh guys before the fight and include that figure in fighter statistics as they do in some boxing fights. Does it mean anything in the bigger picture? No, but it is good information to know, and a more important statistic than 24 hour weight. I know how much some amateur guys cut, and find it pretty shocking, and I’m sure on the professional level it’s even more severe. Unless, as someone mentioned, you have some slamming breasts.