What point do you think BantamRunner was trying to make? Why are you harping on me for agreeing with him, without actually addressing the point?
If you’re at 15% bodyfat and are gloating about how much bigger you are than the bodybuilder competing on stage, you may be deluding yourself. If that isn’t you, why the hell are you butting into the discussion since nobody was addressing you?
[quote]forlife wrote:
The original point was actually made by BantamRunner:
THIS is the point you want us all to take head of? WHO the hell are you talking about? WHO here is claiming they are bigger than certain competitors while being nowhere close without getting flamed for it? You and bantamrunner are seeing groups of us applaud this act?
If anything, what you may see is many of us saying is, “WHY IS THAT GUY COMPETING WHEN HE ISN’T BIG YET?”
Who cares about some mythical guy with 15" arms who can curl 75lbs dumbbells with great form when NONE OF US SEE ANYTHING LIKE THAT EVER?
Does it hurt that much to know that being small isn’t respected in BODYBUILDING unless the competitor is extremely short AND looks built?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Does it hurt that much to know that being small isn’t respected in BODYBUILDING unless the competitor is extremely short AND looks built?[/quote]
Maybe just a little bit… =(
this thread is still alive?
It’s not like you only get so many “gains” in your life. You make big gains when a bunch of different factors come together at once, so suggesting that you could waste something like a gain is fucking stupid. Just sayin
forlife: Is your point that people with lower body fat and smaller arms are as strong or sometimes stronger than heavier guys who might have larger arms in measurements but higher body fat? If the “bigger”(taking fat and muscle into account) guy has less LBM than the “smaller”(taking fat and muscle into account) guy then there is a possibility that the “smaller” guy might lift as much or more than the “bigger” guy.
Honestly I don’t understand what your point is? Is it not common sense that the more LBM someone has the stronger they are when talking about hypertrophy?
I want to give a shout out to all my 15 inch armed bruthas curling those 75 pounders for reps with good form— all none of you.
[quote]ronaldo7 wrote:
forlife: Is your point that people with lower body fat and smaller arms are as strong or sometimes stronger than heavier guys who might have larger arms in measurements but higher body fat? If the “bigger”(taking fat and muscle into account) guy has less LBM than the “smaller”(taking fat and muscle into account) guy then there is a possibility that the “smaller” guy might lift as much or more than the “bigger” guy.
Honestly I don’t understand what your point is? Is it not common sense that the more LBM someone has the stronger they are when talking about hypertrophy?[/quote]
I agree it’s common sense, and this whole discussion began by me agreeing with BantamRunner’s comment. I have no idea why people are arguing about it, as if there are no guys in their own gyms who may look bigger but are actually weaker.
We’re not talking about fatties with no muscle mass at all. It’s a simple observation that having some extra fat due to bulking can make you look deceptively big, while someone with single digit BF may look deceptively small, but still be stronger.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I agree it’s common sense, and this whole discussion began by me agreeing with BantamRunner’s comment. I have no idea why people are arguing about it, as if there are no guys in their own gyms who may look bigger but are actually weaker.
We’re not talking about fatties with no muscle mass at all. It’s a simple observation that having some extra fat due to bulking can make you look deceptively big, while someone with single digit BF may look deceptively small, but still be stronger.[/quote]
The problem is, there isn’t a ‘set standard’ available to be drawing conclusions like that: It’s more accurate to say that no two individuals have the same starting point (in terms of strength, size and BF) and that no two individuals progress and respond to training in the same way. So it’s impossible to say who worked harder for their gains and who is the more impressive by judging their level of conditioning.
Your scenario suggests that the bigger guy hasn’t worked as hard on his nutrition (I’m deliberately avoiding the word ‘diet’) and training than said smaller guy just because he isn’t as ripped, even though you have no idea what either guy looked like before they started working out, or what they did to get to where they were. I shouldn’t have to explain the jump in logic there.
I don’t want to get drawn into hypothetical scenarios, so I’ll just say this about yours: you have no way knowing if the smaller guy’s starting strength level was lesser or greater than the larger guy’s, nor can you say who had the greater starting muscle mass (by ‘starting’ I mean before either one picked up a weight). So yes, one may have worked harder than the other, one may be relatively stronger than the other, one may have gained more mass, but it could just as easily be the guy with higher body fat. Is he now less impressive just because you can’t see how far he’s come? All you can do is judge each individual on their own merits.
There is a reason why this kind of question is never asked in ‘real life’.
Who said anything about one guy “working harder” than the other? Both have valid bodybuilding goals, and as long as they are reaching those goals, both are worthy of respect.
I’m actually agreeing with you that you shouldn’t be passing judgment on others. That is the underlying message of the common sense point BantamRunner and I were trying to make. Just because a guy is an inch or two smaller in his measurements due to being extremely lean doesn’t justify bulkers looking down on them. Both are bodybuilders, in my book.
And yes, I realize that most of the posters here are extremely enlightened and would never consider judging someone else with smaller measurements than them, especially in the absence of knowing what those people are actually lifting in the gym 
[quote]forlife wrote:
Who said anything about one guy “working harder” than the other? Both have valid bodybuilding goals, and as long as they are reaching those goals, both are worthy of respect.[/quote]
Is my writing style really that unintelligible? Didn’t you say something earlier about a bigger guy sometimes lifting less than a smaller guy? How does my post not directly address that comment?
What is it with you that every post has to directly reference a quote from another? Those were my own comments on why it’s pointless comparing two people and judging one over the other unless they are on a stage or unless they ask you to. Let me summarize for the nitpicky: it’s not worth worrying about.
[quote]
I’m actually agreeing with you that you shouldn’t be passing judgment on others. That is the underlying message of the common sense point BantamRunner and I were trying to make. Just because a guy is an inch or two smaller in his measurements due to being extremely lean doesn’t justify bulkers looking down on them. Both are bodybuilders, in my book.[/quote]
Personally, I think you’re wasting an awful lot of time preaching to the choir on a matter which only really shows up the people that think that way, and there really aren’t any here.
[quote]
And yes, I realize that most of the posters here are extremely enlightened and would never consider judging someone else with smaller measurements than them, especially in the absence of knowing what those people are actually lifting in the gym ;)[/quote]
Preaching to the choir it is, then.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’m actually agreeing with you that you shouldn’t be passing judgment on others. [/quote]
So saying you are stronger than everyone bigger than you, and “slyly” putting down anyone that goes above a BF level YOU are comfortable with, by using back handed digs, is not judging someone?
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
I want to give a shout out to all my 15 inch armed bruthas curling those 75 pounders for reps with good form— all none of you.[/quote]
LOL!
Ah yes, here we are…puts on reading glasses. Without all the desperate backtracking, how is this:
[quote]roybot wrote:
You have no way knowing if the smaller guy’s starting strength level was lesser or greater than the larger guy’s, nor can you say who had the greater starting muscle mass (by ‘starting’ I mean before either one picked up a weight). So yes, one may have worked harder than the other, one may be relatively stronger than the other, one may have gained more mass, but it could just as easily be the guy with higher body fat. Is he now less impressive just because you can’t see how far he’s come? All you can do is judge each individual on their own merits.
[/quote]
Not related to this?
[quote]forlife wrote:
I’m regularly surprised by people in the gym who look like they should be able to break me in half, yet lift less than I do. It’s not all about how much you weigh, but about what your weight is actually made of.[/quote]
Surely that’s just as judgemental as what you are criticizing others for, yet you’re agreeing with me that you “shouldn’t be passing judgment on others”…
Nice cherry picking of my comments. What I also said was:
I think bulkers are absolutely worthy of respect, if they are meeting their goals. WTF is so hard to understand about the fact that I’m talking about the reverse situation, where some bulkers judge people who prefer to gain muscle at a slower pace while staying lean? If you aren’t one of those people, I’m not talking to you.
One question These big guys that you think should break you in half have you ever lifted with them on a weekly routine?
Yes.
[quote]
forlife wrote:
Nice cherry picking of my comments. What I also said was:
Both have valid bodybuilding goals, and as long as they are reaching those goals, both are worthy of respect.
I’m actually agreeing with you that you shouldn’t be passing judgment on others.
Both are bodybuilders, in my book.[/quote]
My alleged “cherry picking” of quotes aside, you also said “I’m regularly surprised by people in the gym who look like they should be able to break me in half, yet lift less than I do. It’s not all about how much you weigh, but about what your weight is actually made of.”
You say we shouldn’t pass judgement on others, but haven’t you done just that?
Your opinion so far makes even less sense with those quotes thrown in. It’s like you’re trying to agree with everybody and nobody. BTW, I’m still waiting for a direct answer to my last two posts. Besides more accusations of cherry picking your quotes, that is…you wrote 'em.
This is my last post in this thread, the discussion on such a minor point is already too long.
Yes, I’m one of the shortest guys in my gym and I also lift more weight than the majority of guys in my gym. No, I don’t think this makes me any more a “real bodybuilder” or any “better” than anyone else. I have always respected guys who choose to bulk in order to maximize muscle gain. Most of them who do so with equal dedication and for the same amount of time I’ve trained (going on 8 years) are stronger than me, which only makes sense. Their approach maximizes muscle gain, at the expense of added fat. I have no beef with that approach, and in fact think it makes the most sense for the majority of bodybuilders.
What I do have a beef with are bulkers who think their way is the only way, and who judge guys who choose to stay lean while increasing muscle mass at a slower rate. Again, if you’re not one of those guys, I’m not addressing you.
Feel free to have the last word 
[quote]forlife wrote:
This is my last post in this thread, the discussion on such a minor point is already too long.
Yes, I’m one of the shortest guys in my gym and I also lift more weight than the majority of guys in my gym. No, I don’t think this makes me any more a “real bodybuilder” or any “better” than anyone else. I have always respected guys who choose to bulk in order to maximize muscle gain. Most of them who do so with equal dedication and for the same amount of time I’ve trained (going on 8 years) are stronger than me, which only makes sense. Their approach maximizes muscle gain, at the expense of added fat. I have no beef with that approach, and in fact think it makes the most sense for the majority of bodybuilders.
What I do have a beef with are bulkers who think their way is the only way, and who judge guys who choose to stay lean while increasing muscle mass at a slower rate. Again, if you’re not one of those guys, I’m not addressing you.
Feel free to have the last word :)[/quote]
Ridiculous. People are judged on PROGRESS and whether they are actually succeeding. No one gives a shit if you stayed super lean if you are smaller than everyone else. This isn’t powerlifting so no one cares whether some guy with 15" arms can curl 5lbs more than some guy with 16" arms. If the guy with 16" arms has made more progress and actually looks really built, he wins. 'Nuff said.
The argument you are making ONLY seems to come from little guys. You NEVER hear this from the guys most consider really big.
It comes across as some “sour grapes” perspective simply because little guys don’t stand out as much.
No one gives a shit if you choose to gain at a slower rate, just quit acting like that makes much sense if the goal is to really stand out on the level some of us are shooting for. Slow gainers will not reach the same levels as people who go all out and force a drastic change in muscle mass and body weight. Evidence of this is everywhere.
Why get pissed simply because most of us in this for years know that guys like you make lesser progress?
Hell, prove me wrong…but you won’t…because you can’t.
Size matters. Sorry if that hurts.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Yes.[/quote]
LOL.
What is “big” to you?