War, time and human costs

Off Topic
41

Well this post went from defending the war to bashing Kerry, even though Avoids said we should judge the two men on non military issues he went on to post that spam mail that keeps going around work. I don’t really care I am voting Libertarian this election.

Patriotism is not blindly sending men and women in the prime of their lives off to war, the war must be justifed, and there is no way to say this one is.

Also, I feel patriotism has turned into nothing but nationalism in this country. I have seen what nationalism did for Yugoslavia, and in turn when I see countless US citizens getting their 30 second sound bites from Fox and then thumping their chests and destroying Dixie Chicks cd’s I begin to worry. Why are US citizens so damn lazy? If they aren’t too lazy to research a legitimate opinion, they are completely apathetic. I guess its true the world over, but damn is it frustrating.

42

Rangertab…shut the fuck up already. I for one, dont give a half a fuck if u are in the military or not…being a soldier doesnt give you some kind of all knowing political knowledge. I love that these brain dead fuck wad soldiers think they know everything. AND DO NOT GIVE ME ANY SHIT ABOUT YOU ARE DEFENDING MY FUCKIN FREEDOMS. Last time I checked, Iraq wasn’t invading the US. There is still no proven link between Iraq and 9/11. So shut the fuck up already. I dont think your brave at all. You signed up for that shit…not knowing you were going to war…and please, I’ll call u brave when you fight an opponet like the Nazi’s or the Japanese from the 1940’s…or maybe the Chinese or Koreans. FUCK YOU PUSSY.

43

“Kerry is a coward,and I’ll be damned if a pussy like that is going to send people like me to war”

And Bush is what? A fuckin Rambo?

44

“UGGHHHH I HOPE YOU GET TORCHED OVER THERE.”

Boy, that’s a pretty rotten thing to say IL Cazzo.

45

Il Cazzo,

You wrote:
“Rangertab…shut the fuck up already. I for one, dont give a half a fuck if u are in the military or not…being a soldier doesnt give you some kind of all knowing political knowledge. I love that these brain dead fuck wad soldiers think they know everything. AND DO NOT GIVE ME ANY SHIT ABOUT YOU ARE DEFENDING MY FUCKIN FREEDOMS. Last time I checked, Iraq wasn’t invading the US. There is still no proven link between Iraq and 9/11. So shut the fuck up already. I dont think your brave at all. You signed up for that shit…not knowing you were going to war…and please, I’ll call u brave when you fight an opponet like the Nazi’s or the Japanese from the 1940’s…or maybe the Chinese or Koreans. FUCK YOU PUSSY.”

Then: “UGGHHHH I HOPE YOU GET TORCHED OVER THERE.”

You would not say that to his face. I GUARANTEE IT. I’d thank you to shut your mouth. I can picture you. I can guess what you smell like. I can guess your education level and your political beliefs. I can see your arms. You’ve never served. You make excuses. You were picked on in school. You are anti-everything to the core.
You made the comment that if Bush won again you would travel to Canada to live. Please do not. Why don’t you go to Rwanda. Try Syria. Run your mouth there. Then, I guarantee you would appreciate the freedoms that rangertab and the rest of us have given you. If you are an American citizen, I am ashamed of you.

46

BigDave,

Thanks for the partisan ranting! Libertarian!!! Sure. You sound like the typical leftist loony. I’m weary of connecting the dots for people. I’ll give a brief sketch, AGAIN, of the facts.

You wrote: “I thought we went to war 'cuz the world was under imminent threat of weapons of mass destruction?”

It is. It will continue to be. Weapons of mass destruction will be found in Iraq. We have already found weapons systems that were not reported to the U.N. On www.drudgereport.com you can find a link that shows a former Iraqi who gives you an indication of where these weapons are. You can also tell why it is hard to find them.

BigDave, when we find these bunkers full of weapons, will you publically apologize for your comments? I’ll bet you will not. I’ll bet you will change the subject. Or, you will accuse Bush of planting the weapons. (Just in case you employ the latter, remember, we would have planted them by now if we were going to.)

Here is a quick listing of facts:

  1. Hussein is the typical brutal dictator. Aggressive and ruthless.
  2. He invades his neighbors on average of once every 10 years. Example: Iran and Kuwait.
  3. He sponsored terrorists in Palestine. $26,000 to each of the terrorist’s families.
  4. He had a massive stockpile of chemical weapons in 1998 before the U.N. tucked their tails between their legs and ran. I love it when people try to say there are no weapons. In order for that to be true, Saddam, the aggressive militaristic dictator, would have to have gone on a crash destruction program AND NOT DOCUMENTED IT ANYWHERE. Then risked going to war with the U.S. and the world by balking at letting the inspectors back in. Oh, Dave, good thinking.
  5. We have already found A HUGE STASH OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN TRIPOLI. Remember 1986? One airstrike and he’s been quiet for 20 years. We invaded Iraq, he relinquished his weapons voluntarily. Coincidence? Horseshit. He understands deterrance.
  6. It makes me sick when I think about those idiots that say that “Al Qaeda and Hussein had different religious beliefs, therefore they never cooperated.” ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!?! Ever heard the phrase, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” We have already found Al Qaeda training manuals in northern Iraq. Coincidence? How about the speed by which the same methods were used against the U.S. and Coalition Forces. Are you willing to bet YOUR LIFE AND YOUR FAMILY’S LIFE ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT SADDAM WOULDN’T PUT ASIDE RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES IN ORDER TO SMITE A COMMON ENEMY? If you would, then you are ridiculous.
  7. Finally, it is in our interest to remove Saddam. As a matter of fact we have about 10 reasons. Why do people automatically assume that we need just one reason? If, after 365 days we haven’t unearthed A MASSIVE CACHE OF WEAPONS, does that somehow invalidate the rest of the reasons? Does it indicate that we won’t find those weapons? OF COURSE NOT!!! It makes me sick to think that the same people who are pissing and moaning about the WMD’s would be the most vocal supporters of the effort if their candidate had been elected. For the Democrats, please see the article where Bill Clinton recently said that “George Bush should be given a pass on the WMD issue.” He said, “My Administration thought there were weapons too.” DID YOU CATCH THAT?

In summary, I’m tired of this particular argument. We are doing the right thing. We are engaged in it. To pull out prior to making a huge effort would have devastating implications for both Iraq and our future foreign policy initiatives.

47

Man… what can I say. Let me tell you something Il Cazzo, just because there is something you don’t agree with, or just because there’s something which apparently has no justification doesn’t mean you can disrespect a man like RANGERTAB. Yes, they are soldiers… yes they kill people, yes they’re in a war which may or may not be justified, but definetely being in Iraq or in any war for that matter is the real deal. It’s the comittment to give your life for something you believe in (justifiable or not depending on your ideals) which matters. Do you have those kind of COJONES? If you were in Cuba they would’ve already shot your LITTLE ass, but thanks to people like RANGERTAB you have the luxury to say what you want without having to worry about anything. Ain’t that sweet? Now, I don’t know what you’re doing replying to this topic in the matter that you are, but let me guess… you either are an angry little skinny spaghetti arms 14 year old without anything better to do or you’re a CULTURAL RETARD. I think that by your rhetorical answers, that you’re BOTH… and I shouldn’t but I must get it out of my chest… FUCK OFF STUPID LITTLE PUSSY!!!

48

I’m not going to say whether or not I’m for or against the actions of Bush. What I do want to expalin is that this post is showing a flaw in logic. I forgot the exact name, but an example is:

Johnny did something bad
Bobby did something worse than Johnny
Therefore, what Johnny did was ok

There is no logic in the reasoning. The actions of Bobby have nothing to do with determining whether or not what Johnny did was ok or not.

49

Mositure, please, get the fuck off it. How come whenever someone says something against someone else, the idiot goes on to say i wouldn’t say it to his face. Please. I’m right in AC, NJ, come visit anytime. Thats another thing…people think that because someone is in the army they are some kind of Chuck Norris/Bruce Lee killer. PLEASE.

50

I kind of think of this group as a tribe of which I am a fringe member.

The Dakota Sioux were fierce warriors. A bulk of a man’s self esteem and value to the tribe was based on his prowess as a warrior. It was taken very seriously.

When somebody’s courage or character were attacked, it was a huge issue. Further, personal attacks were dealt with swiftly and with finality.

The comments Il Cazzo has directed towards Ranger Tab would likely have resulted in one of two things. A fight to the death, or submission, followed by the losing member being run off. Or, a gathering of tribal council, and in all likelihood, stoning and banishment of the weaker member.

In this case, I think it is a foregone conclusion what would happen in the event of a physical confrontation between the two.

Therefore, I am respectfully suggesting a simple shunning of Il Cazzo. That we as a tribe, pretend he doesn’t exist and allow him to wander off as a nomad.

I am sickened by his comments, and suspect there are many other tribe members who feel the same. I suggest we forego the verbal stoning and move right into banishment.

That’s it.

51

haha, APW…you’re right, without the forum, my life would be in shambles. ugghhh. It’s a friggin internet forum. Sioux warriors…oy.

52

“1. Hussein is the typical brutal dictator. Aggressive and ruthless.”

And what about the dozen or so other dictators over the past decade that the US has let slide?? (Nigeria, Zimbabwe, few other african countries)

“2. He invades his neighbors on average of once every 10 years. Example: Iran and Kuwait.”

U.S. has invaded parts of countries to protect or acquire interests, so what’s your point?

“3. He sponsored terrorists in Palestine. $26,000 to each of the terrorist’s families.”

The US has helped train ‘terrorists’ all over the world.

“4. He had a massive stockpile of chemical weapons in 1998 before the U.N. tucked their tails between their legs and ran. I love it when people try to say there are no weapons. In order for that to be true, Saddam, the aggressive militaristic dictator, would have to have gone on a crash destruction program AND NOT DOCUMENTED IT ANYWHERE. Then risked going to war with the U.S. and the world by balking at letting the inspectors back in. Oh, Dave, good thinking.”

I’ll believe it when I see it.

“5. We have already found A HUGE STASH OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION IN TRIPOLI. Remember 1986? One airstrike and he’s been quiet for 20 years. We invaded Iraq, he relinquished his weapons voluntarily. Coincidence? Horseshit. He understands deterrance.”

Don’t know anything bout this, not gonna comment.

“6. It makes me sick when I think about those idiots that say that “Al Qaeda and Hussein had different religious beliefs, therefore they never cooperated.” ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!?! Ever heard the phrase, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend.” We have already found Al Qaeda training manuals in northern Iraq. Coincidence? How about the speed by which the same methods were used against the U.S. and Coalition Forces. Are you willing to bet YOUR LIFE AND YOUR FAMILY’S LIFE ON THE ASSUMPTION THAT SADDAM WOULDN’T PUT ASIDE RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES IN ORDER TO SMITE A COMMON ENEMY? If you would, then you are ridiculous.”

I am pretty sure you can operate a training camp in Iraq in secret. But nonetheless if some superpower was trying to blow me up I’d cooperate w/ whoever the hell would help me. But find me some solid proof that he was helping al qaeda before we started lighting a fire under Saddam’s ass.

  1. Finally, it is in our interest to remove Saddam. As a matter of fact we have about 10 reasons. Why do people automatically assume that we need just one reason? If, after 365 days we haven’t unearthed A MASSIVE CACHE OF WEAPONS, does that somehow invalidate the rest of the reasons? Does it indicate that we won’t find those weapons? OF COURSE NOT!!! It makes me sick to think that the same people who are pissing and moaning about the WMD’s would be the most vocal supporters of the effort if their candidate had been elected. For the Democrats, please see the article where Bill Clinton recently said that “George Bush should be given a pass on the WMD issue.” He said, “My Administration thought there were weapons too.” DID YOU CATCH THAT?

List all these interests again, I’d just like to see what exactly these are.
initiatives.

53

Il Cazzo is entitled to his opinions but his comment to Ranger was dispicable, uncalled for and warrants shunning. If I were to say that I hoped that IL Cazzo’s mother was caught in an attack similar to the one against the WTC and burned to death, I think I should be shunned also. However, I can’t imagine a grown man making such a comment. There are definitely some deep rooted problems evident that we don’t need to have to deal with with him. If I were T-Mag, I wouldn’t want his kind on the forum. There are plenty of other chat rooms and forums where he can spew his filth incognito.

54

I am laughing my ass off.

Bush 2004!

Enjoy it folks, it will happen.

~j

55

Ren,

Thank you for reading and replying to most of my post. I have to admit, I was hoping that someone else would take the time to respond to my argument. I suppose I can take comfort in the knowledge that danh, tme, and RightSideUp have not responded. To me, that is tacit acknowledgment that these facts are undeniable and unanswerable.
Unfortunately, your response did not address the central premise. That premise is that Iraq was a clear and present danger to the United States. The fact that he openly sponsored SUICIDE BOMBERS should speak volumes to a post-9/11 world. The fact that we found the mastermind of the PLO funded attack of the Achille Lauro in Baghdad (where he was given shelter by a sympathetic Hussein) should speak volumes to a post 9/11 world. The Al-Qaeda training manuals, the pictures in a police station (state run by the way) showing jets flying into the World Trade Center should speak volumes. I could easily go on and re-explain why Iraq was a higher priority target than the other countries you mentioned. I’ll just leave it with my previous example of deterrance. I noticed you didn’t want to comment on Libya. Of course not. It is clear evidence of the power of deterrance. Let me throw another example out there. Pakistan. The fact that Pakistan’s President, Musharref, has moved publically to eradicate the Taliban/Al-Qaeda from their borders is another off-shoot of our foreign policy post-9/11. When GWB stated that we would agressively pursue terrorists and STATES THAT FUND/HARBOR THEM, our attack in Iraq showed that we mean what we say. I guaran-fucking-tee that Pakistan does not want to be seen to be harboring terrorists. He doesn’t want to end up hiding in a rat hole in downtown Karachi. Does it seem like more than coincidence to you that the new offensive started only after the Iraq war? We in late 2001 that there were Taliban/Al-Qaeda hiding in the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Ren, your arguments lacked cohesiveness and I must add, relevance.

For instance, you wrote: “The US has helped train ‘terrorists’ all over the world.”

First of all, please show one example of state sponsored terrorism by the Administration of GWB. To head your next, easily guessed retort, I will define a terrorist. A terrorist is someone who attacks civilians for the express purpose of spreading terror. You won’t find a single example of this being sanctified under GWB. Period.
For the sake of argument, if you found an instance of CIA sponsored overthrow of say, Colombia, in 1954, it would have no practical relevance to the current geo-political world. As a nation we are guilty of crimes. There is no denying that fact. However, your implicit argument is that if we made errors in our domestic/political past we are therefore morally unable to castigate others. That is just pure rubbish. To take your argument to it’s logical conclusion, we would be “morally paralyzed” to stop any slaughter because our nation was guilty of that crime in 1892 at Wounded Knee. According to your implied argument, we would not have had “the moral authority” to stop the genocide against the Jews in World War II.
I wholeheartedly reject that premise.
One more point you make reference to is our failure as a nation to stop all the slaughters on the globe at once. Your implication is that if we stop the state sponsored killings of Iraqi’s we have to stop it in a, b, c, etc…or we are guilty of being “oil hungry Americans.” Somehow, by your logic, it’s all or nothing or we can’t say one of the reasons we waged this war was humanitarian. Let me say, we stopped it in Iraq. We deserve credit. We will intervene in the future and stop it in other places. Instead of pointing out the work to be done in the future, how about giving credit to our nation for our current success? Who else is leading a large coalition to free whole nations, educate and feed their people? Who else spends $87,000,000,000 and asks for no re-payment? No oil re-payment, no nothing. My God, Germany, France, and Russia are still debating the amount that the deposed government of Hussein “STILL OWES THEM!!!” They are, in effect, asking the fragile new nation to cough up a majority of their GDP. Talk about greed.
By the way, what are the paragons of virtue, France, Germany, and Russia doing to stop slaughter elsewhere?

56

Thank God this forum is dominated by conservatives. If not I don’t think I could come here with faith in humankind. Just imagine a bunch of posts like Sonny’s. :::puking:::

57

I’ll have a rebuttal for you over the next few days, got a lot of engineering work that needs to get done asap. But one thing I will say now, is your statement:
“terrorist is someone who attacks civilians for the express purpose of spreading terror.” You got this definition where?? It sounded ridiculously wrong to me, so I had the urge to look the word up, here it is:
ter?ror?ist (trr-st)
n.
One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.
So I looked up terrorism:

ter?ror?ism (tr-rzm)
n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Yup, sounds just about what al-qaeda have been doing to me. Like I said rebuttal will be here sometime over the next few days, but next time make sure you use a correct statement to help vaildate your point.

58

outside voice here, swedish.

seriously, bush winning the election with less then 50% votes makes your country look less democratic. but yes, the US has the mightiest military force in the world. in numbers the EU will have more when Turkey joins.

i watch your news stations sometimes, its alot of talk and not much info, i dont like that. what im saying is, here in sweden i get more theral(sp?) reports then i do watching your news.

to me, it looks like bush is a puppet.

59

Moisture -

I haven’t responded to your posts? It is YOU who has yet to respond back to the 60 Minutes thread, where much of our debate has taken place. I offered you the opportunity to ask me particular questions on issues that you sought my position on, and you somewhat did so. I then responded to those questions and have heard NOTHING from you since.

I haven’t even been following this thread, but I’ll damn sure start.

60

I’ve been out in the field for the last few days training my ass off, so I couldn’t respond to Il Cazzo’s most insulting post. Why he would say anything like that, I don’t know, but I do know something: that he would never say that to my face, and that he would never be able to say that to some crying mother or family member who had just been given a folded American flag. To all the rest of you at the forum, disregard what Il Cazzo said. Believe it or not, he IS entitled to his opinion, regardless of how pathetic it is. There will always be pieces of garbage who love to talk shit over a keyboard but never when it really matters. His comments do not bother me, nor should they bother you. Il Cazzo,I’ve killed better people than you. I only wish you had half the balls to at least stand up like those Iraqis so I could put a 5.56 in your ass. But there’s no use in talking shit over a forum like this. This forum is meant to help us learn from each other, and we should treat it as such.