War, time and human costs

Off Topic
21

Yea, now instead of being afraid of having their fleshed torn off by an insane madman, the Iraqi’s now get to bicker over the development of infrastructures and developing a constitution. Sounds a hell of a lot worse to me.

And pulling them out will stop the bodybags from coming in?

Give me a fucking break! So why aren’t oil prices declining yet? Because we are letting Iraq use the oil to fuel there own economy. Put this tired old excuse to rest. We are not there for oil. End of story.

[quote]And as far as Bosnia goes don’t even get into that. US didn’t even go to war there. They were mere peace keepers there along with UN’s blue helmets. By the way, the only reason US didn’t get involved there it’s because it doesn’t have any interests there… I suppose if it wasn’t muslims that were being killed there (the majority), perhaps the US would’ve done something.
Afghanistan is also hardly liberated, just a question… is that the kind of liberation you would want for yourself and countrymen? And unfortunately, the war on terror can’t be won. It will be over when world decisions are not made unilaterally but within a consensus of all nations. [/quote]
Didn’t Clinton worked pretty darn multilaterally with the UN and NATO in Bosnia. Don’t really stop terrotists did it?

We have them on the run. Osama isn’t hanging out in Afghanstan in some palace. He’s hiding. In hiding its much more difficult to plan and effectuate attacks.

22

Moisture,
I don’t know whether Bush is good or bad, I don’t know whether Republicans are doing a better job than Democrats but I can tell you one thing is for sure… Bush’s obsession with with Iraq and the “war on terror” (his way) WILL keep bringing the bodybags to the US, and that my friend is something neither YOU nor anyone else can change no matter how much you love the man! And by the way… you’ve failed to mention daddy’s relationship with the bin Laden family… very convenient.

23

hehehe

24

Moisture:
"Really? How about that time when he was in Oxford. He was called to active Duty in Vietnam. Remember the letter he sent around refusing to serve. THAT, MY SMALL FRIEND, IS A MUCH MORE DIRECT AND REPREHENSIBLE EXAMPLE OF PERSONAL MORALS AND USING THE SYSTEM TO GET OUT OF SERVICE. Don’t you hate that word, hypocrite. It gets in the way of the Democratic party acting “holier than thou.”

I can’t believe you woulkd even DARE to make that analogy. THis really is bizarro world.
Hw can you even begin to compare a man who avoided serving thanks to his father’s influence, a man who was wealthy and the son of a congressman. with Clinton deciding to stay and stidu in ENgland?
THat is against everything this country stands for: all men are created equal.
The poorest man has as many rights as the wealthiest.
Furthermore:
This post is implying that the Democrats are responsbile for every single war since WWI, which is the biggest load of horseshit ever posted on this board. THe implication is that Democrats started Vietnam, which is universally acknowledged as being a horrible, unjuust war and an enormous military awa social mistake. So CLinton decided NOT to serve, as a conscientious objector, for a war that set the record for draft dodgers and is accepted as a huge mistkake.

And he is a hypocrite for dodging it?
If you say the war was a Democratic mistake, which is implied by the first post, then CLinton was smart enough to realize it and not serve.
Because it was a mistake- that’s what the original post is implying.

I don’t have the time to look up the investigative articles proving that there was a conspiracy to eliminate the vote of thousands of black voters by claiming they were convicted felons.
Since you enjoy spending so much time looking up facts, do the research and get back to me-that is not sarcastic BTW.

I have a paper and a presentation due tomorrow so I’m out of here.

25

Me smell an idealistic but sorely misguided college student among us with a blood pressure of 230/110 and rising.

Brhahahahahaha!

26

Sonny S -

Hey, I heard the Illuminati, Knight’s Templar and the Free Masonry society organized a huge plot to give Bush the presidency too!!!..You dumbass. Good shit, Avoids Roids, good shit.

When in doubt, flip it to burst.

27

Sonny,

I can’t wait to hear you bitch and moan when Bush puts Kerry away in November.

I predict the largest landslide win in US history.

Whine all you like. The truth is that everyone of you, admit or not, was so thankful that Bush was our President after the 9/11 attacks.

I’m sure that if Gore had been President, the we would still be “talking” about it, or maybe trying to get in touch with the terroist “feelings”.

Whatever. Four more years. Damn right!

28

great stuff guys! i like the attitude in this post

29

Well everyone I have read everything on here and let me be the moderate view independent that I am.

Worst and Best Presidents?

Thats something you can’t determine as hard as you try we’ve had many presidents who have had to serve in very different situations? Washington was the first president of infant nation with hig emotions. Lincoln of a nation divided on many issues. FDR served during a peroid of time when the world was in a very steady unbalance. And President Bush he has been given a new challenge which is very new from anythign we as a country have ever expirenced. TO rate a President is silly this isn’t football there isn’t super bowl rings to compare or touchdowns, this is preserving a country which I consider the finest in the world. I think we should admire all presidents who faced some very challenging situations and came through no matter what party they are.

About the 2000 presidental election It is over so get over it (personally Nader was the best choose hahaah time to get blamed for letting Bush win by democrats), Anyways if anything bothers me everytime a pres. election comes around is the electoral system itself. I take offense to it it was created by our framers of the constitution because they did not feel our population was “virtuous” and able-minded to elect a good president. If something is wrong with the elections it is that system.

Now my only defense of the framers by doing that is when i read some of these post which are loaded with very politically party rich propaganda with no real proof, just mere opinion and speculation. While everyone is free to their opinion, they need to remember there is no defintive proof their opinion is true, because if there was it wouldn’t be an opinion it would be a fact.

I’m not trying to cut anyone down I just think sometimes people need to remember to speak from the head and try to let go of party bias and look at each individual as an individual. You cannot prove that BUsh has done anything wrong, but as of now we have yet to suffer another terrorist attack on U.S. soil and he has gone after the terrorist agressively. He may have made a mistake by attacking IRaq, but I am happy to see Saddam gone, but I didn’t see him as our current danger. Is bush perfect hell no, no president is he is a man in a very very important postition with responsibilities we could never imagine.

and my last thing to say is that I hear how people always bring up Kerry being in Vietnam, which he deserves much respect for his purple hearts. I hear about Bush’s nationa guard service and what not. I honestly don’t care because at this moment Bush is president and Kerry is not. And just because one was an active soldier does not make him a better candidate for president. Only our system of electoral votes which are won indirectly through our populat vote, only if the electors decide to follow the vote they are supposed to, but nothing accutally forces them too. This will decide who is president and well no one knows until then and it will be a close race.

Nader for 2004!! (1 more vote wasted on a 3rd party candidate)

30

SonnyS,

You’ve got to stop!!! I look forward to your posts!!! It’s like lobbing up softballs. I’m going to go yard, again!!

“You wrote: I can’t believe you woulkd even DARE to make that analogy. THis really is bizarro world.
Hw can you even begin to compare a man who avoided serving thanks to his father’s influence, a man who was wealthy and the son of a congressman. with Clinton deciding to stay and stidu in ENgland?
THat is against everything this country stands for: all men are created equal.
The poorest man has as many rights as the wealthiest.
Furthermore:
This post is implying that the Democrats are responsbile for every single war since WWI, which is the biggest load of horseshit ever posted on this board. THe implication is that Democrats started Vietnam, which is universally acknowledged as being a horrible, unjuust war and an enormous military awa social mistake. So CLinton decided NOT to serve, as a conscientious objector, for a war that set the record for draft dodgers and is accepted as a huge mistkake.”

What school do you go to? What are you studying? It certainly isn’t logic. Can’t you see the enormous hole in your logic. I could drive the Earth through your argument. In case you can’t figure things out on your own, I’ll go slow and simple.

#1. By your logic, it’s ok to refuse to serve when DIRECTLY TOLD TO SERVE BY THE MILITARY.
BUT, if you are in the National Guard, flying fighter jets, you are somehow less noble, brave, and noteworthy than a hippie smoking J’s at Oxford who refuses to serve his country.

#2. I agree the poorest man SHOULD HAVE the same rights as the wealthiest. It didn’t work out quite that way in the Paula Jones case, now did it? Imagine if YOU, SONNY, lied about how many NABISCO CRACKERS you had eaten last Tuesday to a Federal Grand Jury. Do you think you would have gotten away with a fine? Do you think it would have been acceptable to tell everyone that you were being picked on by a “vast right wing conspiracy?” Hell, no, your small, smelly ass would be languishing in a federal prision.

#3. In your research paper, please don’t include things like, “THis” or “ENgland” or “awa” or “stidu” or “unjuust” or “woulkd.” I think you are a clown and quite humorous. Your professors probably won’t be quite as amused.

#4. You said that Vietnam was universally accepted as a huge mistake. That is a fair statement. However, since when does a student have the right to turn down his country’s summons? If a rich son had done that, I can imagine what you would have said. So what you are really implying is that Clinton (because he was poor and your candidate) actually deserved SPECIAL TREATMENT. The “rich” man’s son does not have this “privilege.”

In summary, thanks for posting. Your fanaticism is helping make my case that George W. Bush is only real candidate. If I was Kerry, I’d say, “Sonny, stay off my side.”

31

I thought we went to war 'cuz the world was under imminent threat of weapons of mass destruction?

Germany had attacked nearly the whole of Europe, how could you imply we didn’t have a stake in that?

We are part of the UN, wasn’t the UN forces in South Korea attacked?

The Vietnam War was to contain communism, a dubious, ambiguous goal, and thus the ever-growing discontent with the war.

So many resources were removed from Afghanistan that the real war on terror stagnated, letting Al-Qaeda morph into a many-headed beast, which makes it harder to kill.

The war in Iraq has fomented irreparable disdain for us in the Middle East, as does our implicit and explicit support of Israel’s brutal tactics. This has driven public opinion, where the war on terror must really be won, toward extremists.

If you are going to war you better damn well have exhausted all other means and must also have a legitimate moral cause, whatever the cause truly was we were told it was WMD, that the purpose has changed continually makes me question the war itself.

The liberation of two countries? So how does a country rate to be “liberated”? Dear Leader is responsible for far more horrors and deaths than Saddam was, the constant civil war/genocide killings in Africa, who determines who is worth saving?

As you might have been able to tell I am not a supporter of this war any longer, I don’t feel my countrymen deserve to die in an ungrateful country, I feel if a country is going to be liberated they should do it their damn selves, our foreign policy is their domestic policy, if the change doesn’t come from within an occupying force is not the answer.

By the way, we went to war because of Bernard Lewis’ ideas and Ahmed Chalabi’s silver tongue.

32

BEdZ, my man… just one one question? Thanx to whom are Iraqis bickering about infrastructure??? (By the way, this is something they had before the “liberation”). You say Osama is running and that he can’t effectuate (very rhetorical) attacks or that it’s more difficult… mhh, let me see… why don’t you ask someone from Madrid about that, although there are different rumors about what happened analysts mention it was more than likely from Al Qaida. So much for their lack of effectiveness to effectuate attacks. And about oil, well just tell me why did the US get involved in the first Gulf War, don’t be fucking stupid and naive and say it was because of “democracy” do not insult our intelligence. If that were the case, then why hasn’t the US gotten involved in let’s say China! I suppose human rights are big thing up there, huh? Is it the new fad or what?
Please, just don’t ride that stupid we’re for democracy bullshit flag, because we know the truth is otherwise… By the way, before the first Gulf War, did you know that child hunger was erradicated from Iraq? Adn guess what… after all the embargos imposed on them (by guess who?), 500 children started dying of that same very disease that was already erradicated? I suppose it’s all in the name of democracy, right? And just remember again… Saddam and Osama were created by whom? Tell BY whom asshole? I guess at the time they were envoys of democracy…
Oh, by the way… perhaps if Bush pulled out the troops, bodybags wouldn’t stop from coming in… BUT AT LEAST AMERICAN BODYBAGS WOULD you stupid fuck. Expalin that to the families of the 4 contractors killed today and the 5 soldiers.
What goes around comes around.

33

Ok, reading this just made me remember something…I am going to slap the next idiot who says anything along the lines of “Even if there aren’t WMDs we still liberated a people who were being oppressed blah blah blah.” Why do I say this?? Because as we speak the Zimbabwean government, aka Mugabe the Dicatator, is sponsoring reclamation of farms by common people (farmers are mostly white and common people black in Zim for all you geographically challenged people). I know 2 families that lost their farms and esacped deaths thanks to the good rifle shooting of their farmboys. The entire country’s economy is shot to hell, and the government is sponsoring wholesale slaughter. Okay, so they aren’t an imminent threat, yeah, well neither was Iraq (if you disagree please send any uncovered WMD’s or biological weapons to the UN).

What you guys got to say to that??

34

Mositure-
No, I won’t tell you where I go to school, I don’t want you stalking my ass.

I don’t have the time, as many others apparently do including you, to research every response and opinion of mine.
Maybe because my school is so demanding of my time?
I don’t justify my opinions to anyone and I sure as hell don’t waste time looking for facts to impress you.

But, I am interested in other’s opinions, which is why I enjoy this forum.

Fanaticism implies the strong belief in a cause, and I have said repeatedly on other posts that I do not belong to a single party or cause.

But I am passionate against inequality and injustice, so I could be a “fanatic” about the disproportionate criticism betw. CLinton and Bush; the criticism of Kerry for protesting the war when he returned after serving for 2 tours of duty while Bush did not see combat; the fact that Gore won the popular vote but lost the election thanks to shady dealings in the very same state that Bush’s brother Jeb is the Governor of;
the coverage of slick Willy’s sex life as compared to Bush’s Saudi connections.

35

It’s nice to see some independent thinking here, although some of it has no real world experience to give it more credibility, even when I don’t agree with some of it.

However, lets make one thing absolutely clear. Kerry was not a Vietnam hero. He was a coward that took advantage of an arcane Naval regulation which let you go home if you had 3 purple hearts. Kerry’s “wounds” were superficial and were not in line with the original thinking of when a purple heart should be awarded. I have two and could easily have dummied up a third one to get out of Vietnam. However, I wouldn’t abandon my men anymore than any other self respecting individual would. What Kerry did, in my opinion, was desert his men to save his own skinny ass. Then he takes up with the likes of Hanoi Jane who caused irreparable harm to many of our POW’s. She was not expressing an opinion. She was aiding the enemy and should have been tried for her actions. Any one who has ever associated with that scum bag should be barred from running for president. As should deserters. Don’t anyone cite Kerry’s service record to me as proof of his patriotism.

Bush’s record was certainly not exemplary either. So, lets just compare the candidates on their non military assest and see who comes out ahead.

36

Well, I’m pretty sure that their liberation can be attributed to the coalition forces removing Saddam. And, any constitution that may have been in effect during Saddam’s time had to be a complete joke.

It’s not know if the al-Qaeda was responsible for this Moroccan attack. In fact, Spain’s Interior Minister believes it’s the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group. The suspected leader of the attack is suspected to have links with al-Qaeda but according to Sonny S and you, so does every President since Roosevelt.

I’m not going to insult your intelligence because you are doing a fine job at it yourself.

We got invovled in the first Gulf War because Iraq invaded an ally. Was oil invovled? Of course it was. Oil is a valuable resource that the entire world needs to function. Control of resources have been invovled virtually every conflict. However, I’m sick and tired of consipracy theory crap about Blood for Oil. It’s not true.

So, continue your theory. If we are not for democracy and free markets what are we for?

Well, the embargo was an UN sactioned device. And we all know how well the UN has operated in feeding Iraq. Or wait, they embellzing the majority of funds and Saddam stole over $4 billion and in turn used those funds to bribe other countries…such as France and Germany?

And again, Saddam is gone. No longer will the torture of their children be used to threaten parents. Further, the 1988 gasing of the Kurdish people in Halabja shows just how ruthless Saddam and his regime was, and how it’s wasn’t that nice of a place.

[quote]And just remember again… Saddam and Osama were created by whom? Tell BY whom asshole? I guess at the time they were envoys of democracy…
Oh, by the way… perhaps if Bush pulled out the troops, bodybags wouldn’t stop from coming in… BUT AT LEAST AMERICAN BODYBAGS WOULD you stupid fuck. Expalin that to the families of the 4 contractors killed today and the 5 soldiers. [/quote]

I, like many others have good friends in Iraq right now. I feel deeply for the families of the 600 military personal that have died in Iraq. But, how would we explain to the Iraqi people if we pulled out of Iraq now? How could we allow a power vacuum in which some other radical power hungry group could come in and dominate and torture them? We can’t and we won’t.

The United States can not pull out and show a total lack of dediction and power as we did in 1993 in Somalia. One of the reasons that Bin Laden beleived that America was a paper tiger was because pulling out of Somalia. We need to stand up to the bullies of the world.

Truly sad and I will save the personal attacks for a PM.

37

(FROM BEdZ)
Alright you mexican little fuck! What the fuck is your problem you fucking beaner?! I reply with quality comments and you start attacking me? Shows a real lack of character and education. You wet-back dick.

Go take a nap you lazy mexican fuck ass. Go back to Mexico. Fag.

Ok guys, this was just sent to me as a private message… I don’t know what you guys think of it but to me it sounds a bit “racist”. Ok, if you wanna get personal that’s cool, just to let you know though that in no moment have I insulted your nationality (on the contrary I defended your troops), and I if in any moment you have felt (yeah you BEdZ) offended by the the comments of some “little wet back lazy mexican fuck” then I apologize. I just want to say race has nothing to do here and it has no place in a site like this. I realize probably this is a mostly white forum, but I don’t care because the knowledge I’ve gained from this site is invaluable. And I think all people here are worth the time talking to and learning from. You can write what you want, just do me a favor, next time have the balls to publish it so everyone can see what kind of “character” you possess. Trust me (and I shouldn’t even be saying this), I’ve worked hard for everything I’ve earned, I am not a wet back (I am legal US resident and college educated), and trust me if you knew any “wet backs” I’m sure you would respect them. What they have endured to get here takes more balls and is a bit more transcendent than just getting “ripped” my man. You call me little… yeah, I guess if you define big and small by american standards I am. I’m only 5’ 8" and weigh about 191 lbs. But let me asure you that I have earned it, i used to weigh 130 lbs. And if that is small, tough.
Anyway, by the reaction to my post you just show only one thing, a BIG lack of tolerance… which is the about the only big thing you’ve got my man… THE ONLY.

38

This e-mail was written by Mike Morrison, who won a bronze star in Vietnam and who is now retired, but wrote speeches for Lee Iacocca for many years. It was sent to his brother Ed, who sent it along.
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?-Ed.- Something’s fishy. I’ve long thought that John Kerry’s war record was phoney. We talked about it when you were here. It’s mainly been instinct because, as you know, nobody who claims to have seen the action he does would so shamelessly flaunt it for political gain. I was in the Delta shortly after he left. I know that area well. I know the operations he was involved in well. I know the tactics and the doctrine used. I know the equipment. Although I was attached to CTF-116 (PBRs) I spent a fair amount of time with CTF-115 (swift boats), Kerry’s command.
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Here are my problems and suspicions:
(1) Kerry was in-country less than four months and collected, a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three purple hearts. I never heard of anybody with any outfit I worked with (including SEAL One, the Sea Wolves (AR), Riverines and the River Patrol Force) collecting that much hardware so fast, and for such pedestrian actions. The Swifts did a commendable job. But that duty wasn’t the worst you could draw. They operated only along the coast and in the major rivers (Bassac and Mekong). The rough stuff in the hot areas was mainly handled by the smaller, faster PBRs. Fishy
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(2) Three Purple Hearts but no limp. All injuries so minor that no time lost from duty. Amazing luck. Or he was putting himself in for medals every time he bumped his head on the wheel house hatch? Combat on the boats was almost always at close range. You didn’t have minor wounds. At least not often. Not three times in a row. Then he used the three purple hearts to request a trip home eight months before the end of his tour. Fishy.
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(3) The details of the event for which he was given the Silver Star make no sense at all. Supposedly, a B-40 (rocket propelled grenade) was fired at the boat and missed. Charlie jumps up with the launcher in his hand, the bow gunner knocks him down with the twin .50 (caliber machine guns), Kerry beaches the boat, jumps off, shoots Charlie, and retrieves the launcher. If true, he did everything wrong.
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(a) Standard procedure when you took rocket fire was to put your stern to the action and go (away) balls to the wall. A B-40 has the ballistic integrity of a Frisbee after about 25 yards, so you put 50 yards or so between you and the beach and begin raking it with your .50’s.
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(b) Did you ever see anybody get knocked down with a .50 caliber round and get up? The guy was dead or dying. The rocket launcher was empty. There was no reason to go after him (except if you knew he was no danger to you - just flopping around in the dust during his last few seconds on earth, and you wanted some derring-do in your after-action report).

(c) Kerry got off the boat. This was a major breach of standing procedures. Nobody on a boat crew ever got off a boat in a hot area. EVER! The reason was simple. If you had somebody on the beach your boat was defenseless. It couldn’t run and it couldn’t return fire. It was stupid and it put his crew in danger. He should have been relieved and reprimanded. I never heard of any boat crewman ever leaving a boat during or after a firefight. Something is very fishy.
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Here we have a JFK wannabe who is hardly in Vietnam long enough to get a good tan, collects medals faster than Audie Murphy in a job where lots of medals weren’t common, gets sent home eight months early, requests separation from active duty a few months after that so he can run for Congress, finds out war heros don’t sell well in Massachusetts in 1970 so reinvents himself as Jane Fonda, throws his ribbons in the dirt with the cameras running to jump start his political career, gets Stillborn Pell to invite him to address Congress and Bobby Kennedy’s speechwriter to do the heavy lifting, winds up in the Senate himself a few years later, votes against every major defense bill, says the CIA is irrelevant after the Wall (Berlin) came down, votes against the Gulf War, a big mistake since that turned out well, decides not to make the same mistake twice so votes for invading Iraq, but oops, that didn’t turn out so well so he now says he really didn’t mean for Bush to go to war when he voted to allow him to go to war. I’m real glad you or I never had this guy covering out flanks in Vietnam. I sure don’t want him as Commander in Chief. I hope that somebody from CTF-115 shows up with some documented facts challenging Kerry’s Vietnam record. I know in my gut it’s wildly inflated. And fishy.
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39

Good post avoids roids. If Kerry truly were a patriot, why wouldn’t he have stayed in Vietnam longer. They gave him a chance to go home and he took it. What about all the other guys who wanted to go home but couldn’t? Kerry is a coward,and I’ll be damned if a pussy like that is going to send people like me to war.

-When in doubt, flip it to burst.

40

Damn it, I hate to do this to you again Avoids but just because you throw the name of a Vietnam vet on it doesn’t make it real.