War and Peace in the Mideast

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]JeffR wrote:
danny,

First of all, NEVER, EVER use “u” if you want to be taken seriously.

Those are the rules.

Second, I used to sympathize with the palestinian people. No longer. That ended with targeting of Jewish civilians. Not collateral damage, targeting.

Nothing in the world can justify this. NOTHING. Little girls in night-clubs. People shopping.

They are being directly targeted.

TERROR-ISM.

Any group that uses this as a primary tactic, automatically invalidates whatever cause they fight for.

Third, people need to let go of “the formation of Israel was a mistake.”

Even if it was the worst possible “mistake,” how does talking about that help? Do not say, “that is understanding the context of the conflict.” Israel is a reality. Talking about what happened at the creation does nothing to solve on the ground problems.

Finally, you state that lebanon is a nation of “innocents.” Rubbish. While there are undoubtedly people who don’t directly participate in terrorism, hezbollah has been allowed to set up a visible and persuasive presence in lebanon.

You ask what they could do? Vote. Join the army. Petition. Hunger strikes. Get on television. Form a resistance. Stop doing business with syria/iran.

That help?

Resolution 1559 wasn’t enforced by lebanon. They are guilty and culpable. They are accomplices.

JeffR[/quote]

No doubt. Not sure what this ‘bang’ shit is about, i’ll ignore that.

I read a Shugart blog about ungrammatical (a real word) writings, for the record, sorry, i am serious about this, i was writing fast because it was late but i wanted to express myself. Now i’ll write rite right? :wink:

I’m in complete accord with your disgust at these tactics. Especially the civilian targets, they have actually coincided it with Jewish feasts, when they are gathered at shabbas (misspelled?) PLEASE read my last post in the ‘Israel/Lebabon a more balanced outlook’ thread for more.

For your 3rd point, that isn’t true. If we can take the expulsion of the Jews from their homeland (due to civil disobedience, i might add) and their oft-forgotten persecution in soviet gulags, as well as the holocaust, as a reason to give them a state, then surely we offer the arabs the same luxury? They have suffered too. All of their amenities were stripped of them (strategic land acquisition) in palestine, Lebanon got embroiled in this due to harbouring the PLO. This is in addition to the WAR CRIMES of the IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) and the various official (secret police) and unofficial Israeli antagonists (Zionist terrorists, these existed).

“Talking about what happened at the creation does nothing to solve on the ground problems.” Perhaps, but it is a lesson. The arab world needs a Ghandi/Nehru (though each made mistakes).
People die fighting in ignorance, if they don’t learn their history before picking up arms. Disagree? But i agree, we need a resolution, not a history lesson. The adjuncts from the past are just examples of mistakes we made rashly, due to pressing circumstances.
I’ll quote again “The western world is trying to salve it’s conscience with Arab land” (and economic independence, didnity etc).

Several of your suggestions for proactive Lebanese responses are very sensible. I have very close friend from Bahrain, (poker buddy) who suggests the only dissent Lebanese have available is to leave, “as soon as they can” (his words) if they disagree, like Sam Farha (You guys know him? He’s not political, so he left). The problem is that many Lebanese (I assume, admittedly) don’t want to HAVE TO fight, or hungerstrike, etc, just to LIVE. What a sad situation for those that feel this way but can’t leave.

Sorry Jeff, we should be united in this (hopefully we will) but you, as a US citizen, are just as culpable for the whole situation in the mideast, as an innocent (not all, admittedly) Lebanese civilian is for the actions of the Hezbollah, or PLO, or Hmas, or any other militant reactive group.
Your country dictated what will fly out there, stirred up a soup in hasty ignorance, and then expected no bloodshed?

Get back at me

22

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Stand outside yourself, and see what you said in this last paragraph. Imagine you are wearing a kufi, and your skin is very tanned. Replace ‘terrorism’ with ‘invasion’ or ‘imperialism’. Imagine that you are at the negative imbalance of munitions, and power, and only your devotion to sacrifice and resistance can stop the enemy ‘conducting war on a larger scale’. Do you get this?
[/quote]

You and I will disagree. The populace in that region has focused on anger and hatred for generations.

Israel, other than simply wanting to exist, will not exert force outside of it’s boundaries except in response to force.

While you characterize it is an “aggressor” it isn’t. It doesn’t want Lebonese land. It is forced to take it to protect itself from attacks by some Lebanese citizens.

In any case, in the Middle East the Israeli’s cannot “give in”. The other faction wants to fucking eliminate them, kill them all, wipe them off the planet.

If you suggest they “give in” to that to any level you are insane.

23

No, i don’t suggest they ‘give in’.
And i read a report by Moshe Dayan (look him up) who said that occupying territory in Palestine/Lebanon/Syria is a tactical nightmare/mistake.
It leaves your borders far more vulnerable, and your forces far more thinly spread, not to mention the provocation to previously passive citizens seeing their streets being patrolled by hostile troops.

Basically this guy ordered some of the most devastating attacks this region has ever seen, yet he was a candidly honest reporter of the ambiguities of the situation. He said the war would never end. But he was a soldier, that’s jobs! That’s like me being a baker and loving that people are obese. You dig? Everyone posting in this thread about the inevitabilities of war etc rant rant blah blah look up this kid and read this thoughts on the matter

24

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Everyone posting in this thread about the inevitabilities of war etc rant rant blah blah look up this kid and read this thoughts on the matter [/quote]

Danny, he may be right, but that doesn’t change the nature of the situation or the options available.

Eventually the Islamic community will accept the presence of Israel or there will be continual warfare.

The world has learned the truth about terrorism, and it’s time as an acceptable way of fighting against the balance of power is over.

People using terrorism as a tactic are going to be living in war, which is pretty akin to hell as we can see by turning on the television. They have a choice to make.

Hate Israel, support terror, live in hell or accept Israel, stop terror and finally transition to a peaceful life.

The decision is not “ours” to make. It is those that are living in hatred and choosing terrorism that can choose to stop doing that. Or not. However, if they don’t choose to stop they don’t get to cry and whine about how bad the effects of warfare ruin their lifestyle or country.

That is the price of terrorism. How long they wish to continue paying it only they can decide.

25

Yeah. Ok man. I’m so tired of repeating myself, only to meet a confused neo-liberal idealist proposition, or good ol’ US of A fascist WAR IS WAR, LIKE IT BITCHES WE’RE THE NEW SUPERPOWER, i guess your hearts in the right place, you don’t like suffering, and oppose that suffering which you have digested evidence of

26

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Yeah. Ok man. I’m so tired of repeating myself, only to meet a confused neo-liberal idealist proposition, or good ol’ US of A fascist WAR IS WAR, LIKE IT BITCHES WE’RE THE NEW SUPERPOWER, i guess your hearts in the right place, you don’t like suffering, and oppose that suffering which you have digested evidence of[/quote]

You talking to me? I’ve been called “ultra-liberal” and “anti-american” from time to time in these parts because I criticize Bush so damned much.

Also, if you didn’t know it, Canada isn’t exactly a superpower…

However, terrorism is something that I do have big philosophical problem with. It’s your party, cry if you want to.

27

I’m not Jeff but here you go:

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
No doubt. Not sure what this ‘bang’ shit is about, i’ll ignore that. [/quote]

It means “right on”, “you hit the nail right on the head”, “lock the thread”.

That would be great.

Yes.

Why is there this prevailing view that the USA stamped out a paper that said “There shall be Israel” and there it was? The UN created it out of land owned by the British, the UN gave away the land (res. 181), and the Arabs immediately invaded, and got their asses handed to them. The Arab nations, by the way, were armed and supported by much of the West in that war (1947).

We have offered the Arabs their own state. It’s called Dearborn, Michigan. A quarter million Arabs live there – elect their own representatives, worship without interference at their own mosques, raise their families in their own ways, speak Arabic – all without the brutality of the Middle East (unless they drive through Detroit). And get this, they live alongside Jews too!

I notice that the other Arab countries aren’t clamoring to give the Palestinian refugees any land, although they have plenty.

Well, you know what, I feel just as bad for the Arabs as I do for the people that they stole the land from in the 7th century. Unlike the Arab conquest of Judaea, the Jews at least aren’t taking the old “convert or you and your family die” so favored by many Arabs to this day.

Yes, it is a lesson. Not always a helpful one.

He would be murdered almost instantly by the radicals if anyone ever listened to him. Until the Muslims get some balls and stand up to their radical fanatics this will go on and on. Right now they are trying to have it both ways – they want to join civilization and not have to confront the radicals. It won’t work. You can’t have democracy when one segment of society does what it wants when it wants.

[quote] People die fighting in ignorance, if they don’t learn their history before picking up arms. Disagree? But i agree, we need a resolution, not a history lesson. The adjuncts from the past are just examples of mistakes we made rashly, due to pressing circumstances.
I’ll quote again “The western world is trying to salve it’s conscience with Arab land” (and economic independence, didnity etc). [/quote]

The Jews beat the hell out of the combined armies of the Arabs on multiple occasions. They would do it again without a nickel from the west, as they did in 1947. Their culture (in terms of making war) is vastly superior to their neighbors. They could beat the arabs with spears.

The problem is not a West vs. Arabs one anymore but an Israel vs. Arabs one. That is the situation, and the Arabs would do well to finally admit it.

Not merely sensible, but absolutely neccessary if they don’t want Israel to solve their problems for them.

Bullshit. Really. Do they want a nation or not? If they are not willing to fight for it they will never have it. If they don’t care enough to do so, fine, leave, but don’t bitch about how unfair it was in their old country. They are part of national self-determinism, even if their determination was to give up.

Yes, Jeff, you are responsible for the fact that Arabs can’t fight, that they would rather kill innocents than take on armed men, because they can’t organize an army owing to racial and ethnic hatred and because their culture encourages theft and corruption.

[quote]Your country dictated what will fly out there, stirred up a soup in hasty ignorance, and then expected no bloodshed?

Get back at me[/quote]

The Israelis founded their own country by defeating all comers. This is the same way that the UK, the USA, the Arabs who stole Judea, and everyone else have countries.

If the Arabs HAVE to have it back they could try, but they know they would lose. So instead of dealing with that they encourage murder of civilian Jews, which doesn’t get them anything but an external bogeyman. This helps keep the peoples’ minds off the facts that their countries are shitholes run by strongmen. Their countries aren’t in ruins because of the Jews, they aren’t poor because of the Jews, they have no exports besides oil and bodies not because of the Jews, the little strip of land that they’re missing is not the root cause of all evil. They have enormous problems to deal with that do not stem from the Jews, and until they admit this they are destined for more shit.

28

[quote]vroom wrote:
dannyrat wrote:
Stand outside yourself, and see what you said in this last paragraph. Imagine you are wearing a kufi, and your skin is very tanned. Replace ‘terrorism’ with ‘invasion’ or ‘imperialism’. Imagine that you are at the negative imbalance of munitions, and power, and only your devotion to sacrifice and resistance can stop the enemy ‘conducting war on a larger scale’. Do you get this?

You and I will disagree. The populace in that region has focused on anger and hatred for generations.

Israel, other than simply wanting to exist, will not exert force outside of it’s boundaries except in response to force.

While you characterize it is an “aggressor” it isn’t. It doesn’t want Lebonese land. It is forced to take it to protect itself from attacks by some Lebanese citizens.

In any case, in the Middle East the Israeli’s cannot “give in”. The other faction wants to fucking eliminate them, kill them all, wipe them off the planet.

If you suggest they “give in” to that to any level you are insane.[/quote]

This is simply not true. While Hamas and Hezbollah seem determined to destroy Israel, the PLO has seemed to accept the existence of Israel. But what do they have to show for it?

The Israeli refused to turn the land over to PLO representatives. They didn’t want to strengthen the PLO. So they strengthened Hamas instead. They playes with fire. Now I’m supposed to feel sorry if they get burned a little?

What does PLO have to show for it recognition of the state of Israel?
The Gaza strip turned into a open prison. The West-Bank still occupied with an increased influx of colonists even. More land stolen from them when the wall of shame is being built. More roadblocks, more humiliation. Less water. The Israeli’s strengthen their stranglehold. The world looks and does nothing. But that’s not really true: the US made an urgent delivery of more bombs. Yup, that’s just what the region needed, more bombs. This is the medicin prescribed by Dr. Bush. More bombs.

Even Hamas seemed to move in the right direction, but with half their parliament in Israeli prisons…

Israel has peace with Egypt and Jordan. Syrian doesn’t even pretend to be posturing any more. Lebanon as a country isn’t a threat either. So the mighty Israeli army is faced only with a couple of groups. You like to call them terrorists, they prefer to see themselves as freedom fighters.

They are in a position to give a little. But their politicians are afraid to look weak, so the posturing continues. And people keep dying. That’s ok though. As long as the politicians don’t look weak.

Israel IS the agressor. They stole the land. They keep stealing land. And water. And they’ll continue to keep stealing land and water with US help.
They humiliate the Palestinian population on a daily basis. There will be no peace untill this stops.

Remember when Yassar Arafat was “unacceptable” ? ? ?
Remember that, when he was declared a demon and a devil? He sure looks like a choirboy now. Just one example of the peace-loving Israeli passing up on a chance to move towards peace.

29

Ok vroom, i know you’re canadian. That’s fine. I was talking about rants that included nothing more than capitalisation of sentiments like WAR IS PAIN PEOPLE DIE or some obvious useless shit. I think i know where you’re coming from, but doubt the extent to which you listen to me, and also the amount you knwo about this issue. But like i said, i don’t doubt you’re a kind person. so i like you still. But i don’t like the implication that i support terrorism. My mother was almost killed before my birth due to an IRA attack, yet i could still say there are religious-based conflicts in the northern area of ireland, as that is the truth. But i don’t love anyone who wilfully inflicts unneccessary pain on any other (which is how i classify violent terrorism, read what i have to say about pure terrorism- ‘propaganda by deed’ in which noone gets hurt).

Chucky T, i’d like to analyse what you have written. where i say it is wrong, believe me you are mistaken. Although you seem to know more than most. But i’ve read over 15 books, and many journal articles by respected scholars. Please don’t take my coments as arrogance, these are facts.
I’ll respond in sequence-

The british realised from the Balfour declaration (look it up) that the division of this land would stir some shit. it did. The british had experience, in india, africa, and the US, to name a few. Basically, If you don’t read history, you fall into all kinds of old, worn traps. The USA is a relatively new ‘civilisation’ (no scorn) yet presides over the world (until China comes out the gate…You’ve got 50 years, maybe) and listened atentively to the Zionist counculs ‘demands’ for Mandatory Palestine. Why? noone can be sure, though i have no doubt that a lot of successful, affluent American-Jews had some say… But yeah, symbolically, The UN gave the land. Though since the Ottomans fell (An Anglo-French Conspiracy) the land was ‘British’. The ‘arabs’ you speak of were poorly armed, unorganised palestinian famers against their jaffa oranges having 'Israel stamped on them. Where did you learn the west supported them? The british removed their citizens to britain, sensing a ‘storm’.

I honestly didn’t know about Dearborn. seems cool. I’ve no doubt arabs live with Jews. I can live with anyone who doesn’t regularly insult or bomb me, much like anyone else. haha about detroit.

True true about apathetic arab conservative regimes (UAE etc). I agree, they’re most selfish and cuntish. Though Jordan and Lebanon learned through painful attacks by Israel not to harbour PLO or generally palestinians.

If you don’t think the lessons of history are important, don’t quote history at me. If you do, accept that a country without awareness of the past faces extinction (i refer to the arabs states we are talking about, as well as Israel and USA, seriously)

Who did the arabs take land from? In my understanding, it was theirs from the time they e=were called canaanites.

I agree that ghandi would have learned a painful lesson. The radicals need to stop blowing people/shit up. total accord. REMEMBER THAT PLEASE.

The ‘collective ass handing’ was half-assed. Jordan wanted the west bank. Syria wanted the other side (to be integrated into their countries), they were playing chess with palestine. they sent a meagre amount of troops, got fucked up (the Israelis were battle-ready, as always).

Yep, lebanese have to fight. But fight who? Do you see that bombing their civilians to flush out a small minority of fuckers might be counterproductive in this aim, and will build a solidarity against the israelis like the israleis have against everyone else? But i agree, they need to self-determine. What kind of state do they want? But also, what will be left after the bombs and shells? both are pertinent questions.

Your next passage is sarcastic, ignorant, and has lots of stereotyping against arabs. Not a good look for you. I’m ignoring this shit. don’rt repeat it if you expect me to give you any credence. Don’t forget the USA supplies Israel with its guns etc. without that, the sides would be more even, i think. But they’re not, these are the facts to accept.

Right, in open war the arabs would lose, so they fight underhanded. they fight like cowards. i agree. but they fight for a good thing, with very evil methods. do you agree? i bet not. But i bet you aren’t even listening.

They do have internal evils to confront. But he immediacy of the situation IS dictated by the Jews. One side murder civilians indiscriminately yet claim to be doing it for the good of Palestine, and one side murder civilians indiscriminately yet do it for their own good. And these 2nd group of murdered people (i choose this verb as i know of evidence of Israeli war crimes, and noone doubts that terrorists are murderers, i definitely don’t)

And this little strip of land you speak of… fuck man. Now i know how much you know. Look at Palestine in 1900, then in 1948, then 1967, then present day. They’ve lost more than a strip of land. please, do your homework. And about the oil… when i have time i’ll address this elsewhere. peace

30

Bullshit. The Israelis left the West Bank alone untll hamas was elected. The let them have free elections. But the they elected hamas leaders that shot across the border at Israel. They incurred Israel’s wrath. They get what they deserve. The underlying probelm here is Iran and Syria which refuse to cooperate and keep supporting the terrorists. I have a feeling Iran is going to get theirs very soon.

31

I was doing some surfing and I found this article. I think it might have some relevance.

http://www.slate.com/id/2146230/nav/tap1

There is an interactive chart that gives details of the relationships. I found it very interesting and wanted to share.

32

i’m so glad i’m abut to workout. believe what you want blackjack.

33

That is very interesting Al. Good find. I saw some errors however, like tensions between the PA (puppet authority) and hamas, unnoted. What’s also interesting is how Israel hates everyone except the US and EU. dubious about egypt? They’ve had a few wars in the last 50 years, and i think neutrality is a bit optimistic. But, it’s a valuable resource no doubt

34

[quote]ChuckyT wrote:
…
The Israelis founded their own country by defeating all comers. This is the same way that the UK, the USA, the Arabs who stole Judea, and everyone else have countries.

If the Arabs HAVE to have it back they could try, but they know they would lose. So instead of dealing with that they encourage murder of civilian Jews, which doesn’t get them anything but an external bogeyman. This helps keep the peoples’ minds off the facts that their countries are shitholes run by strongmen. Their countries aren’t in ruins because of the Jews, they aren’t poor because of the Jews, they have no exports besides oil and bodies not because of the Jews, the little strip of land that they’re missing is not the root cause of all evil. They have enormous problems to deal with that do not stem from the Jews, and until they admit this they are destined for more shit.
[/quote]

Bang

35

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
… But i’ve read over 15 books, and many journal articles by respected scholars. Please don’t take my coments as arrogance, these are facts.
…[/quote]

Keep reading. I have read more than that in the last few years on the conflict and I am an engineer with a wife and kids, not a history student.

I feel I have barely scratched the surface.

You should be learning, not lecturing.

BTW your earlier point in this or another thread about Israel getting half of the US foreign aid was way off.

The top four in order are:

Iraq
Israel
Afghanistan
Egypt

The top recipient and three of the top four are secular Islamic states.

Time to stop playing blame the Jew and start looking at both sides of the issues.

36

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Right, in open war the arabs would lose, so they fight underhanded. they fight like cowards. i agree. but they fight for a good thing, with very evil methods. do you agree? i bet not. But i bet you aren’t even listening. [/quote]

Well Danny, maybe you could educate me about this “good” thing they are fighting for. Who exactly is fighting for what, do you imagine?

Are they fighting to reverse the creation of Israel? I don’t think that is a “good” thing.

While I will admit there are lot of things that have happened that have angered people in the region, I will not accept that all of them were instigated by one side or the other.

There has been back and forth bullshit for decades. The Arab world can accept the existence of Israel, and make sure that their own populations are not attacking Israel, or they can live in a world of shit for several more generations.

I already know which choice they will make, sadly.

37

Get used to that sound. You’ll hear it a lot more :wink: bang bang bang bang. Or this one. POW. I thought this was a thread for people to make actual statements about things, rather than that batman tv series. Seriously zap, read that passage again.
It’s all predicated upon an idea that Judea was taken by Palestinians a long time in the past. that’s wrong. Judea and Samaria were crushed by Babylon. One state acquiesced, and were taken to Babylon. The other were horribly tortured and murdered etc. That was shit, i know. But they were just as cocky as the Palestinians were now “who do they think they are, wanting their own land?” blah blah. If you are all going to make a moral judgement, please do 2 things 1) know what the fuck you’re talking about 2) be objective, and consistent. ok, that’s three things, 2 clauses.

Let me also explain, Judea AND Samaria combined were far smaller than Mandatory Palestine, or modern-day Israel! Israel has NO LINK WHATSOEVER in Gaza. They have taken all the roads, and locked people in a shantytown surrounded by guards who have been programmed through school and army training to hate the inhabitatants, all so Israeli’s can have a nice motorway! I’m not even joking.

There is a historical link to Judea and Samaria, however. No Israeli official (powerful guy) ever refers to ‘The West Bank’, he willfully calls it Judea and Samaria. fine, that’s one game he’s playing there, acting like Palestinians never even existed. I don’t mind that at all, it hurts no-one, it’s words. So please remember this before you make lofty statements. Wreckless talked sense also, i suspect he’s actually read sources other than the daily press before making his mind up that terrorists are scum with no cause for their actions etc.

And another thing, The USA didn’t defeat the UK, if it wasn’t for the French, you’d still be using s’s instead of z’s in your words and shit like that!

" they aren’t poor because of the Jews, they have no exports besides oil and bodies not because of the Jews, the little strip of land that they’re missing is not the root cause of all evil"

Read this sentence. Beat your own face with a brick. Repeat. This is the path to truth. Who told you this? The Israeli settlers knew fuck all about growing crops in the Mideast, their civilisation had been displaced to Russia, Poland, Germany etc for centuries, in the diaspora. Then when some limited numbers came to Palestine in the 1900s (early), Palestinian farmers helped them understand how to grow in this desert, which was nice, all was harmony.

But things change, and far too many Jews came, without regard for the current inhabitants. Moshe Dayan suggested the arabs would “live like dogs, or leave”. How nice. He was in charge of Israeli military activity all throughout it’s formative period

38

Israel was created by the UN as the British’s exit strategy.

Israel was created by the west in the hopes of having a place for Jesus to return and demand that, 144K jews representing the 12 tribes of Israel, they convert to Christianity or die.

The United States of America has been a much better place to live for my family (which is Jewish) then Israel.

The oppertunities are endless here.

The evangelicals created Israel so that they could have their rapture.

39

dannyrat,

What university are you studying at?

40

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Wreckless talked sense also, i suspect he’s actually read sources other than the daily press before making his mind up that terrorists are scum with no cause for their actions etc.
[/quote]

Danny, the above is precisely where your train runs off the tracks.

Your statements are an excuse, or a justification, for terrorist actions. Again, I can agree that both sides have many things to be upset about, but that does not justify the actions being taken.

The Arab world can catch up with the development of humanity and enter the modern world, or it can be relegated to the scrap heap of history like many other failed civilizations that have been superceded by others.

For example, I don’t see much by way of the Mongolian Empire or the Roman Empire anymore.

Will the Arab world look forward, to peace and prosperity, to the welfare of it’s own citizens as should have been guaranteed by the wealth in the region or shall they bicker, terrorize and live in squalor?

Making it sound as if terrorism is justified, because of history, as your words tend to do, only help to spread the false belief that something can actually be accomplished by the actions of groups such as Hezbollah.

History is being written today. Certain groups are causing division and strife in the Middle East because they are not able to move past hatred based on past events. They are damaging themselves, their neighbors, their countries and their children and either they don’t even know it or they don’t even care.