Countering Decades Of Propaganda

I woke up this morning to CNN talking about the fact that roughly 100 Iraqi civilians die every day in Baghdad. The most apparent and immediate thing is that these attrocities cannot be thrown at the feet of the western world.

At the same time, even the Iraqi PM while visiting the US, is unwilling or perhaps unable to denounce the use of violence and terrorism on behalf of Hezbollah. Why is that?

Has the entire Middle East been consumed by generations of hatred based on propaganda? Is it perhaps because of so called news organizations such as Al-Jazeera and various media fanning the flames of hatred for so long that this is all that many people know?

Even here on the boards, there are some people trying to justify the actions of Hezbollah, for example, by listing off a ream of one-sided wrongs spanning multiple decades.

Who is countering all this hatred and propaganda? To hear of it, apparently even moderate Arabic people are afraid to speak out against fanatic groups for fear of death. Decades of propaganda has created generations of hatred which have their own inexorable inertia.

I’ll ask again, who is countering all this hatred and propaganda? At this point I wouldn’t expect a pro-western newspaper or radio station to last a week without being bombed. However, could something like a pro-future or pro-prosperity publication squeeze in there without raising too much ire?

A vastly different message needs to be spread. One that talks about the future and doesn’t simply focus on all that ails the world being the fault of evil outside influences. One that asks questions that make people think. At this point one that focuses, safely, on a different viewpoint.

With all the riches in the region it is a shame, if not a sin, that the people are not living in a rich and mighty culture that impresses the world. The squalor, the violence, the hatred, the envy, or perhaps a feeling of being owed something by the rest of the world simply has to be countered.

Anyway, excuse my ranting, but waking up to such sorrowful tripe annoyed me.

Glad you’re back on topic now. Waking up to war… Get used to it, the way you act. If you believe that only one side in a war (this one, or any) has any cause for grievance/self righteousness, I believe your wars will never end. You will never accept your own fault, and the only way to victory will be through lots of your, and their, young men and women dying.

Of course i’m not writing this “to justify the actions of Hezbollah by listing off a ream of one-sided wrongs spanning multiple decades.” The fact is, to you, it’s either a mystery, or entire fault at your opponents, which starts/perpetuates wars. For me, it’s the effects of previous injustices/social conditions.

Like the 2nd world war (don’t get it twisted and call me a nazi…)a war largely created because of the crippling conditions of peace imposed by France, UK etc after ww1, on Germany. This gave them cause to feel hard done by (they were) and what they did was look at the world with renewed hatred. Perhaps there would have been no movement of national socialism (deconstruct those words, naive people who think i’m mistaken) had they not been impoverished by Versailles. ETC ETC Don’t get me wrong, there was a spark of evil provided by the ‘philosophers’ of the nazi movement who mutated some nietzche ideas. BUT

Who is countering all this hatred and propaganda?

Look in the mirror. Realise that as you choose to find common cause with kids who think we just haven’t done war on a big enough scale yet, so nukes are the answer,
And at the same time putting people like myself, mazilla, etc in the same bracket as gregus “Yea, but genocide against only bad people is not bad, is it?”
You are betraying your (i suspect) huminatarian roots, and putting the middle east in a pile of shit.

Think about the following, for longer than it takes to type your brusque reply.

I’m not your enemy. I’m on the same level as you. I believe war will beget war. And punishing terrorists by ‘terrorising’ them with a bigger war- will teach them what? DO YOU SMACK YOUR CHILDREN? (if you have any) I bet not.

You may think ‘causality’ or ‘history’ is ‘bullshit’, but the fact is the diplomatic efforts have been rejected by Israel, ANY TIME THE ARABS WERE READY TO SETTLE, not because they were asking for anything unreasonable (usual requests were 44% of their former country, the right to elect a representative government, and neccessary human supplies)

As long you reinforce your child,ISRAEL, (maybe not yours, but USAs) being a bully, it will be a bully, and it will only stop being a bully when someone kicks it’s arse. I know because i’ve broken some big guys noses and after that they were little pussies. The only time they’d try to bully me again is when they were 4+deep (which leads us to the escalating armaments).

So, if you don’t want to wake up to war every day, don’t believe war is the solution to violence (it’s its companion), and don’t support those who add fuel to the fire(supply arms.

With acceptance of these preconditions, we can only then point a finger of blame/ shut down terrorism

Sorry for not answering your question, it’s a good one.

“could something like a pro-future or pro-prosperity publication squeeze in there without raising too much ire?”

“A vastly different message needs to be spread. One that talks about the future and doesn’t simply focus on all that ails the world being the fault of evil outside influences. One that asks questions that make people think. At this point one that focuses, safely, on a different viewpoint.” I KNEW IT (you’re progressive)

But could you deal with such a newspaper if it dealth initially with some things you didn’t want to hear? Or were you just saying ‘Arabs need to realise how totally, singly wrong they are’ in liberal-speak?

If not, if you’re not suggesting a pro-western newspaper trying to somehow run shit, i think you’re on to something

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Glad you’re back on topic now. Waking up to war… Get used to it, the way you act. If you believe that only one side in a war (this one, or any) has any cause for grievance/self righteousness, I believe your wars will never end. You will never accept your own fault, and the only way to victory will be through lots of your, and their, young men and women dying. [/quote]

Danny, I think you are confusing terrorism and warfare. I am obviously very against terrorism, but I understand that war has always had a place in society when other means of working out differences have failed.

LOL, you have no idea what you are talking about.

It’s widely recognized that harsh conditions imposed were a rallying cry. However, that does not reduce the evil that arose. Don’t assume people are blind because they make a different judgment when they see what you see.

[quote]Look in the mirror. Realise that as you choose to find common cause with kids who think we just haven’t done war on a big enough scale yet, so nukes are the answer,
And at the same time putting people like myself, mazilla, etc in the same bracket as gregus “Yea, but genocide against only bad people is not bad, is it?”
You are betraying your (i suspect) huminatarian roots, and putting the middle east in a pile of shit. [/quote]

I’ve never said we should nuke the region. I have chastised people that have said things like that. You should really pay closer attention to peoples viewpoints before you chastise them.

Apply this to your own position. Terrorism will beget war. In a circle of spiraling hate, it doesn’t matter who threw the first stone. Grown humans are not meant to behave as children and in fact sometimes harsh discipline is required.

You are so full of shit. Where have I said history is bullshit? Those that don’t know history are doomed to repeat it… which generally makes it pretty important. However, not in the sense that you tend to use it. History is not about assigning blame it is about avoiding our mistakes. It is not about justifying attrocities, it is about finding ways to avoid them.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:
Sorry for not answering your question, it’s a good one. [/quote]

Yeah, I was so surprised that you missed the entire point of my post…

Dude, I’m not a favorite of the right wing in these parts. However, I feel incredibly strongly about terrorism and attempts to justify terrorism – while then bitching about how unfair it is that those terrorized respond with warfare.

Dude, your preconceptions of every fucking damned thing I say are precisely part of the problem. You are programmed to assume that everyone is out to get the Arab.

We don’t fucking play “pin the tail on the Arab” in this corner of the world. The issue is not about right and wrong with respect to actions today. It is about people having an understanding of what they want for the future and working towards something other than violence and hatred.

You do realize how much oil wealth has been wasted on weapons, violence and death either Arab against Arab or Arab against Isreal? What progress, what civilization, what future could have been built with those resources instead of fueling hatred and warfare?

Eventually there will be an awakening and a deep sense of shame… from inside, not imposed from outside.

I think I’m onto something too. Now all I need is some resources and some contacts (people from the region who speak the language and would be willing to let me be their editor)… but the odds are pretty freaking low don’t you think?

Dannyboy you are embarrassing yourself.

Please explain to me again how the Israelis are killing hundreds of people a week in Iraq.

Radical Islam is murdering people in a dozen conflicts all over the world and it is Israels fault?

Vroom is exactly right.

These people have been force fed propaganda for decades.

There is no easy solution.

This is war and we must fight or lose.

BTW, is English your second language?

I really don’t think countering this stuff is in the West’s best interest overall.

We don’t need them to understand us, to tolerate us, or to be our friends.

Ultimately, our interests are going to be opposed. What is best for us (cheap oil) is not what is best for them.

Better to fight a bunch of hate filled kooks strapping bombs to themselves than to fight a rational, united Arab world.

I am giving vroom a new nickname. From here on out, you will be known as “Little Joe” aka Little Joe Lieberman.

Despite the rantings of Danny, and his defense of terrorists - it is apparent to those with the most basic of cognative skills that this is indeed a war. Diplomacy has been tried and it has failed everytime in the Middle East.

Now it is time for the diplomats to sit down, shut up and admit to their own miserable failings.

War - utter destruction of the enemy is the only tool left in the shed.

It’s all a matter of which side you are on - but make no mistake - the Islamo-nazi-terrorists have already declared the war. It is now time to give them what they want. The U.S. needs to quit fighting with both hands tied behind their back, allow Israel into the fight, and use a little thing called collateral damage to its full potential.

Will we ever be rid of terrorists? No. Can we make it extremely painful for them to inflict damage on the rest of the peace loving world? You are damn right we can. We should have been doing it from day 1 instead of trying to be the good guys - as there is no such thing in war.

[quote]doogie wrote:
Better to fight a bunch of hate filled kooks strapping bombs to themselves than to fight a rational, united Arab world.[/quote]

Maybe, but I think if they weren’t filled with hate and propaganda, that there wouldn’t be any need to fight them at all.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I am giving vroom a new nickname. From here on out, you will be known as “Little Joe” aka Little Joe Lieberman.[/quote]

Hey, there is no need to pick on me!

Did you start a reply intent on not agreeing with me?

The fact is, to you, it’s either a mystery, or entire fault at your opponents, which starts/perpetuates wars. For me, it’s the effects of previous injustices/social conditions.

“LOL, you have no idea what you are talking about.”

You decided not to include this part of my comment about versaille/nazis " Don’t get me wrong, there was a spark of evil provided by the ‘philosophers’ of the nazi movement who mutated some nietzche ideas. BUT" Then wrote “It’s widely recognized that harsh conditions imposed were a rallying cry. However, that does not reduce the evil that arose.” This is EXACTLY WHAT I SAId, but you had to write it.
“Don’t assume people are blind because they make a different judgment when they see what you see.” With all due respect (declining) fuck you. That’s what i see, in more words.

There’s so much to say, you confused guy.

“I’ve never said we should nuke the region. I have chastised people that have said things like that.” etc etc moody guy. I know. I saw how you criticised some, who were totally warlike like ‘yeah! get them bastards!’, then a few posts down, support war because “Grown humans are not meant to behave as children and in fact sometimes harsh discipline is required.” Realise that this is an abstract opinion- a projected ideal. If you kept an open mind that simile would be very profound. Shame on you. Smack your arse. (Don’t act like a child now and retaliate/escalate)

Shall i quote your conflicting support for no war (with bitchy protests against any who claim otherwise)/ support for war?

You’re due for exposure… “Where have I said history is bullshit? Those that don’t know history are doomed to repeat it… which generally makes it pretty important.”

The following are your quotes (out of context sorry). You sound torn.

“I don’t really have an intention of focusing on who wronged who in the past, because I’ll never “prove” one party or the other is in the wrong.”

" It doesn’t really matter all that much, in the sense of the entire world, or history, who lives where. "

“Your statements are an excuse, or a justification, for terrorist actions. Again, I can agree that both sides have many things to be upset about, but that does not justify the actions being taken.”

“Whine, whine, whine. Life is so unfair. Somebody make it right, stop everyone suffering, boohoo. This is what I am hearing. This is the real world, the only thing that will fix it is strength.”

“When terrorism stops there will be a chance for movement forward” (on whose terms? so we must all bow to strength then beg for scraps?)

“As you have been educated many times now, when the Arab world decides to allow Israel to exist in peace, the region will have peace.” (it’s that simple)

“Again, I don’t think drumming up sympathy, for either side as it is very easy to do, really amounts to a hill of beans. Yes, I am a left-leaning and I have argued that the western world creates conditions that lead to terrorism in the past. However, in no way does that mean I can justify terrorism under any circumstances.”

“The Arab world needs to start thinking about the future. This has been a theme I’ve been repeating in all of my posts. The past is over. It’s time to let go of some things and begin the healing process.”

“(Preluded by my comment about conflicts of the past bearing on current-day conditions of life) It’s not complex at all. The history is intricate but basically immaterial.”!!!

“The inferior living conditions are because they won’t simply live in peace.” (which came first? the chicken or the egg? I actually know and i’m hungry now)

" I don’t think basic needs have been denied. I don’t hear of people dying of starvation or of thirst." (This is the problem)

" Nobody is denied of worship. Many people don’t live “right there” and they worship just fine. Hell, if the place was peaceful I’m sure they’d have full access to anyplace they wanted. This is what people don’t seem to get. The road to access and sharing is not through violence and terrorism." (for truth- Irgun terror squads bombed all Over modern day Haifa, and also Jerusalem, the holiset place n earth for them where they spilled lots of arab blood, to support zionism pre-Israel being bigger than 20% of Palestine- what happened? They got their wishes, their leader even became Israeli PM, their country grew exponentially as a result- maybe the arab terrorists have read this part of history, and thought it might work? I think this is relevant as i know terrorists study other terrorists to ‘improve’ their strategies. Don’t say it’s all in the past)

ETC ETC i could go on, but i shouldn’t have to, just for more than 1-2 people on this whole board to realise the murky ambiguity of a situation which can’t be solved by ‘more guns, arab acquiescence’

" History is not about assigning blame it is about avoiding our mistakes. It is not about justifying attrocities, it is about finding ways to avoid them."

I don’t assign blame i show mistakes others haven’t seen (as powerful/dominat societies are very good at obscuring their blame) and not condemn, but point to the consequence of such injustices- the ones personally harmed by such offences then respons irrationally.

The sad thing is that no one who has disagreed with you, has disagreed with you fundamentally about the unsuitability of terrorism for ANY means. Just some have shown, or discussed, that it is not the origin of hatred/pain/eveil, in this world, or even this conflict. If you won’t accept this now, you never will. I’ve personally taken time out of consecutive 3 days, typing thousands of words of evidences of pain inflicted unneccessarily by those in a commanding position, agaisnt those subordinate to their wishes. From this exposition, i find no surprise at all (but certainly no pleasure in my astuteness) that people will fight back with the only means they have.

THAT IS NOT TO SAY I LOVE SEEING DEATH. IT IS JUST THAT I KNOW FAR BETTER THAN YOU DEMONSTRATE, THAT THE MORE CERTAIN GROUPS PUSH, THE MORE THE OTHER FACTION WILL RETREAT TO A DARK CORNER, TO PLOT EVER-INCREASINGLY WICKED WAYS TO OVERTHROW THE INJUSTICES THAT LIBERALS SUCH AS YOURSELF REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE. You have two choices- support ever-increasing war, or support a compriomise that will pacify the people who seek to cause harm. Perhaps you believe that each terrorist should be punished. What is that? If these people are prepared to die in search of their goals (not to establish any caliphate, you ignorant naive fuckers reading who said this) i suggest that they would all happily be imprisoned for their undeniable crimes against human decency, provided that the societies we are a part of/we support, stop killing at a scale of 10-1, and stop the injustices which can equally never be justified. Perhaps i wrote this too fast and misspelled some words etc. I am so disappointed with you, man. I feel that if you aoppose the iraqi war (why, might i ask?) If you chose to believe the histoical facts i’ve quoted with the same sincerity that you believe some anti-US sedition about Iraq, then i wouldn’t have to type so much. I don’t have to type, but you are truly lost

You wrote this, in an earlier post. “Well Danny, maybe you could educate me about this “good” thing they are fighting for.”
That’s what i’ve been doing. The combination of freedom, lack of war, basic human needs (water, crops, industry, freedom of movement) and First of all, before any of this can be achieved, recognition in some way that “Israel is establishing a permanent neocolonial dependency” and USA is providing all the tools they need.

If your reply to this is any less than

“I’ll just read what you wrote earlier, mate, I didn’t realise a revolution was so neccessary in this area (revolution literally means change around, recalibration, remember, it doesn’t neccessitate bombs), I really want peace for all people” then you are alone, and you can sing your little song in chorus with whoever you want on this board, in the greater world, paint it on walls, truly believe you’re a good guy, a liberal etc. But if this is not your response, good luck.

[quote]vroom wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I am giving vroom a new nickname. From here on out, you will be known as “Little Joe” aka Little Joe Lieberman.

Hey, there is no need to pick on me!
[/quote]

It was a compliment, Little Joe.

Since i wrote my far-too-long post of fucking frustration, some people have said things. Since i’d like to not get tempted into arguments beneath me, i’ll try to tie up all this loose shit-

“Radical Islam is murdering people in a dozen conflicts all over the world and it is Israels fault?” Absolutely not. I tried not to make generalisations.

“These people have been force fed propaganda for decades.” Yep agreed. you too. Believe that.

"There is no easy solution.

This is war and we must fight or lose."
This juxtaposition seems confused.

“BTW, is English your second language?” haha you’re ridiculous. I am absolutely th epre-eminent english student that i have ever met. That is my attempt at clearing that up, sorry i had to go arrogant. I get nothing but praise from teachers, nothing but questions from students, and nothing but pissed off when you say this, just because i type fast (think quick) and write knwo instead of know etc. English isn’t just my first language, it’s MY language. Don’t doubt that. I was literally reading Shakespeare when other kids were reading about cartoon apes and their attempts to get bananas, my grammar is excellent (and my linguistics, sociolinguistics, etc) I’ve already taught two people English basics (before i was 19 years old) in my spare time, I’m well on my way to being qualified as an English teacher, my vocabulary is copious… Any questions? Don’t play that shit again.

ok- Doogie- You are exposed- redneck-

"We don’t need them to understand us, to tolerate us, or to be our friends.

Ultimately, our interests are going to be opposed. What is best for us (cheap oil) is not what is best for them."
I value life above petrol, and yes I can drive so it is relevant to me. Stop driving a pickup! Buy a citroen lol

vroom i’m glad you answered that last bit so i don’t need to worry. I agree with your answer.

Rainjack you’ve got me wrong son… I never defended terrorists once… EVERY FUCKING TIME i said i hate death, terrorists, etc etc etc. I explained their motivations, so we can try to defuse them (try- no-ones done that yet- you won’t prove that statement wrong as all mid-east peace efforts have been predicated by Doogie’s interests above)

I’M SURE IF YOU LOOK AT HISTORY YOU’LL SEE THAT iSRAEL’S HANDS HAVE BEEN THOROUGHLY UNTIED… FOR A LONG TIME.
peace

[quote]vroom wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I am giving vroom a new nickname. From here on out, you will be known as “Little Joe” aka Little Joe Lieberman.

Hey, there is no need to pick on me!
[/quote]

I see it as a compliment. If more Dems were like him the country would be a far better place.

[quote]dannyrat wrote:

You decided not to include this part of my comment about versaille/nazis "… [/quote]

I am getting more and more convinced that blaming WWII on the Treaty of Versailles is wrong.

Obviously it had mothing to do with Italy and Japan which were 2/3 of the Axis powers.

I believe German involvement in WWII was brought about because the Germans were not thoroughly defeated in WWI.

The German military spirit was not broken. They believed themselves the master race long before Hitler came along. It was drilled in the German school kids heads pre WWI.

Hitler was a product of the propaganda that started both world wars. He took it to heart and spread it.

Combine a worldwide depression with the German military spirit and WWII would have happened regardless of a punitive treaty.

The treaty may have actually slowed the start of the war by slowing Germany’s military development.

If the Germans didn’t have the treaty to blame for their aggression they would have found something else.

Much like the Jihadists. When they cannot blame Israel they blame something else for their terrorsism.

Danny,

You aren’t understanding what I am saying obviously. You are expressing anger and retailation at points that it is not called for.

Danny, there is a difference between my stance and those that want to kill everyone who happens to live in a region or happens to be Arabic. That you can’t see that difference is not my problem or a lacking on my part.

You may want to hold off on your criticism of me until you understand what I am and am not for or against. Your statements in this post show you don’t really get my position or what I am saying.

[quote]Shall i quote your conflicting support for no war (with bitchy protests against any who claim otherwise)/ support for war?

You’re due for exposure…[/quote]

LOL. Yeah, people can’t read and understand my posts on their own, you have to take points out of context instead!

Again, I am not “against war” in the sense that I avidly propose that peace is the only way. War is something that society can choose to engage in, with all that wars entail.

Terrorism is a different animal, and people like you like to pretend that it isn’t war and that the recipient of terrorism should not then act like they are in fact at war.

[quote]“(Preluded by my comment about conflicts of the past bearing on current-day conditions of life) It’s not complex at all. The history is intricate but basically immaterial.”!!!

“The inferior living conditions are because they won’t simply live in peace.” (which came first? the chicken or the egg? I actually know and i’m hungry now)[/quote]

First, learn to use the quoting system already, this is tiring.

Let me try to explain to you, again, what I am saying. The history of the region, with respect to excusing terrorism, is immaterial. If someone in the region resorts to terrorism, regardless of history, they are declaring war and accepting the consequences of it.

You really need to leave things in context and think a little bit. This does not mean that I am rejecting history, per se, but that I’m not interested in it with respect to justifying terrorism.

Dude, make up your mind. Should the Arab people in the region be at war, and accept the consequences of that decision, or should they not? The history of the region can help make the decision, but it doesn’t speak to the deplorable tactics and actions being used today.

It appears that people want it both ways. They want to justify their own actions, but decry anyone else looking at their own actions and using them to decide war is justified.

See, your statement says that action X results and justifies action Y, but then you claim that is not what you are saying.

You need to stop looking for the “source” of evil and hatred and accept that it exists everywhere. Even if you can pinpoint it to your own satisfaction, someone else will look at the same situation and pinpoint it elsewhere.

Again, pinpointing the first thrown stone and using that to justify generations of anger and hatred is a fools game. Play it to your hearts content.

People are not fighting back with the only means they have. The fucking Lebanese, basically, appear to want a democracy and just to be left alone. However, they have this foreign cancer on their soil that is inflicting warfare on the region in their name.

What you don’t get is that the people of Lebanon probably do not want to fight a war with Israel, and that Israel does not want to fight a war with Lebanon, but Hezbollah has used the past to justify inflicting this problem on two unwilling countries because terrorism cannot be simply ignored.

How the fuck can you fail to see that?

The injustices of the past, if not by you, then by the terrorists groups are used to inflict warfare and suffering on a region by those that don’t live there. External countries to the Israeli conflict interfere in the conflict and support terrorism/warfare. Israel is forced to fight this or watch it’s citizens die.

You are mistaken. If the western world ever truly unleashes war on the region it will win. The region has never seen the western world amass it’s resources for a real war. It should stop trying so hard to provoke a war.

Terrorism is the tool that will be the undoing of the Arab region. It is the item that will cement the west to actually generate the will to go to war. The Arab world greatly misunderstands the west and the strength is has once motivated. It is awesome in the traditional sense, not the modern “cool” sense.

I believe each terrorist should be killed.

What are you talking about? You think some deaths can be justified and some can’t?

Do you think the current deaths in Iraq every day have anything to do with the western world? The voilence is not just against the west.

I think you are one confused little dude Danny. The Iraq war was not in my opinion about terrorism, but about a personal wish by the Bush administration to attack Saddam. It was approved in my mind through a deception. I am not against war if the people of a country legitimate decide that a war is justified.

If the Arab world wants war, then it should fight a war. If it uses terrorism then is has chosen war. If it doesn’t want war, then it should move forward and stop focusing on generating hatred on previous perceived insults. It is in a position of weakness, not strength, and it is risking it’s very existence.

No, without Hezbollah you assclown, Lebanon would have all those things today! The lack of progress in the Middle East is not because of the west, but because short sighted angry men are too busy jerking off about past evils instead of looking towards what is available to them today, if they would just allow it to happen.

I hear you on that point zap. But what a sad world to live in where you don’t learn? USA has a swagger of arrogance in it’s military involvements, and they are very much partners (please don’t be silly and deny this… At he very least they voluntarily keep sending more and more and better and better guns when they plainly see a war goin on- For their love of oil)

“Much like the Jihadists. When they cannot blame Israel they blame something else for their terrorsism.” What a sad, paranoid, apocalyptic worldview…

Just pedantic… but calling Italy 1/3 of the ‘power’ is funny. Hitler practically loved Mussolini… But they were were, uninfluential… a hindrance, don’t you agree? Much like if Spain had got in there like franco wanted.

" They believed themselves the master race long before Hitler came along. It was drilled in the German school kids heads pre WWI" Deja vu… you read my earler ‘rants’?

anyway, i respect your knowledge manifested here dude

I see that you’re not that vroom, that’s why i try to intelligently criticise how i may come to that conclusion, instead of replying ‘think what you want’

I agree therrorism is war- conditional- a more horrible and depraved form of war- usually by those impotence by other means. I’ve spoken about the causes of said ignorance. I don’t dislike/damn you if that affects things.

I know how to quote, but shit i’m lazy with such a big post sorry.

I say arabs shouldn’t be at war, all parties hsould respect UN resolutions as civilised people constructed it as a mediator. Israel should allow democracy, and freedom, arabs should blow up civilians, Israelis shouldnt blow up civilians. That is my position.

X doesn’t justify Y, it Explains it. If in the future we don’t make mistake x, i hope (that is all we have) y would stop/decline. Less x is what perps of y claim to despise, yet noone has stopped doing x. Get me?

I’ll continue to play that game. It’s the only hope for peace that doesn’t involve whole nations enslaved/dead, in my (lone, it seems) opinion.

I see your cancer point, and concur. What the carcinogens were is important to me.

" The region has never seen the western world amass it’s resources for a real war. It should stop trying so hard to provoke a war." Maybe not nuclear full-force- but BIG nonetheless, and subtle, apparently.

No, i just believe if 10-1 is the scale of war crime/evil, that should be scale for reproach/prevention.

Please don’t patronise me. I agree with your analysis about iraq/saddam/bushes jr and sr.

" short sighted angry men are too busy jerking off about past evils instead of looking towards what is available to them today"

Please apply that principle universally.
RE- my point about Hebrew bitterness… etc etc (I try to be objective. Just because i might criticise Israel is because no one else has the balls/ vision to do so, apparently)

“without Hezbollah you (dissenter), Lebanon would have all those things today!” Yeah, true true. but Palestinains wouldn’t. that is what started the wars, conditions in Palestine, for the indigenous arabs. Lebanon is an effect. Hizbollah is a cancer. The tripartite (you ever know anyone eho had cancer? I have) is horrible

[quote]doogie wrote:
I really don’t think countering this stuff is in the West’s best interest overall.

We don’t need them to understand us, to tolerate us, or to be our friends.

Ultimately, our interests are going to be opposed. What is best for us (cheap oil) is not what is best for them.

Better to fight a bunch of hate filled kooks strapping bombs to themselves than to fight a rational, united Arab world.[/quote]

America needs to be away from this type of fighting.

As you can imgaine, I’m not pro-Israel. I think that the whole idea of their inception (being chartered by the UN out of pity) is ridiculous, and I understand why the Palestinians are ragingly angry. I think the Zionists in that country are more than willing to start World War III just to keep their little strip by the Mediterranean, and I think they are just as dangerous as the people they are fighting.

Of course, on the other side we do have radical Islam, which is not a side that I can root for either (for obvious reasons).

In Israel and Palestine, you have what I think is the “Democrat syndrome”. We will bitch about Bush starting the war, and how terrible it is (some of us bitched before it started and were fucking ignored), but the time is past for that. All that can be done now is use it as a lesson, as Vietnam is, and try to figure out what we can do now to get us out. Ironically, by deposing Saddam, we have opened the door for Iran to create a massive Shi’ite empire, which will undoubtedly contribute to problems for Israel in the future.

Israel has gone above and beyond what is called for for these two soldiers. They want a war, and are showing it right now. Let them fight it. Let America stand to the sidelines and watch them fight for their own lives- they’ve been spoiled by American money and weapons for too long. And really, in the end, what has it gotten us? Three thousand dead, Trade Centers gone, and the hatred of the Muslim world, all for supporting this country’s claim to land that they have no right to in the first place.

Rip me apart if you like on this, but these are my thoughts.

[quote]doogie wrote:
I really don’t think countering this stuff is in the West’s best interest overall.

We don’t need them to understand us, to tolerate us, or to be our friends.

Ultimately, our interests are going to be opposed. What is best for us (cheap oil) is not what is best for them.

Better to fight a bunch of hate filled kooks strapping bombs to themselves than to fight a rational, united Arab world.[/quote]

Doogie is right.

The situation has gone too far.

It is too bad there is no will in DC to just nuke Iran and get this thing over with.